Mikel Arteta: Managerial Royalty

[DJ_Markstar]

But what you are suggesting is we don't drop any points in the period of the season, the run in, where the pressure is the highest and it seems most difficult for everyone apart from City. If you can build a somewhat of a lead by not having these strings of multiple games where points are dropped, you can reduce the pressure where you don't have to perfect i.e. assuming City don't drop points.

You're comparing 5 games to 33 tho? Its much more reasonable to ask to not drop points in a 5 game run in than a 33 game season surrounded by cup and CL ties.

 

[Hleb's Sirush]

United fans are criticising 7 Hag for taking off Garnacho and Mainoo for two experienced players when they were 3-0 up against a championship team, because they went on to bottle it. People will criticise whatever you do, if it goes badly, because hindsight is 20-20

Yes you might get criticised if it goes wrong. That's why I said it is a skill. You have to use your squad at some point. If you somehow can manage to use it while getting results the benefits are huge. You keep your most important players fresh, the back ups get vital minutes to stay sharp, get more confidence, maybe even force their way into the starting 11, minimise burnt out, increase competition etc. Also keeps everyone motivated. It even helps you identify who you can keep and who to dump.

Also the example I used were games where we were 4 or 5 goals up. Think there has ever been 1 premier league game where a team failed to win after being ahead by 4 goals. Also I wasn't suggesting making 5 changes, just 1 or 2, leading Sheffield Utd or Burnley by 4 goals and subbing off Ode to give ESR 30 minutes wouldn't have made us concede 5 goals. There was very little risks in those situations. Likewise what was the logic of playing so many established players against PSV when we already had qualified as group winners.

I'm not saying I can't understand why he doesn't rotate, just that we won't have our first choice 11 available all the time so it is in his best interest to try to get the others some vital minutes into their legs. It is something Arteta has to learn if we want to compete for the biggest prizes. I'm afraid when it comes to trusting the bench and/or youth players he is way too cautious.

 

[A_G]

 

[El Realista]

“Rigid system”

Some people simply do not deserve nice things.

We have scored 77 goals this season in the league alone. We’re 5 goals away from scoring 100 across all comps this season.

On top of this we have by far the best defensive record in the league. By the way we’re doing this with guys like yourself rightly suggesting “We DOnT hAvE a ProPAAA NmbER 9 M8”.

If we do actually win the title this year I’d be absolutely embarrassed looking back at some of the drivel I’d written if I was one of these numb nuts.

Lee gunner and co making bloody emergency meeting videos asking for Arteta to be sacked with 6 games to go? The state of this online fan base is wild, most of the people chatting bollocks would get chinned outside the emirates, but they wouldn’t give these opinions in public anyway.

Scoring goals doesn't mean the system isn't rigid. A machine can be effective and do the same 100 times but when the conditions change it won't be effective anymore.

You don't think, you just repeat. You don't even know about football boy, you are just a cheerleader and it's ok, but don't try to use stats as arguments of two things aren't correlated.

Arteta's football is precisely based on prefabricated patterns. When everything is under the right conditions it works. When things goes out of what his system is prepared to work then everything dries up. Players are not prepared to think out of the box because he has systematically drain that liberty and creativity as pep has.

Those fundamental differences between Wenger system and Pep system for example and many times Henry talked about it.

If you can't differentiate between rigid and effective don't even quote me.

 

[db10_therza]

I wonder why we struggle at home. Goes against everything we've been told

Think we just play more openly at home.

Also that f’ng song…

 

[El Realista]

First time I've heard the term Micronesia, you learn new things everyday!

mod edit: little bit less of that.

 

[db10_therza]

Scoring goals doesn't mean the system isn't rigid. A machine can be effective and do the same 100 times but when the conditions change it won't be effective anymore.

You don't think, you just repeat. You don't even know about football boy, you are just a cheerleader and it's ok, but don't try to use stats as arguments of two things aren't correlated.

Arteta's football is precisely based on prefabricated patterns. When everything is under the right conditions it works. When things goes out of what his system is prepared to work then everything dries up. Players are not prepared to think out of the box because he has systematically drain that liberty and creativity as pep has.

Those fundamental differences between Wenger system and Pep system for example and many times Henry talked about it.

If you can't differentiate between rigid and effective don't even quote me.

Putting aside the general patronisingness here (there’s no need…) you do raise some interesting points.

When Henry spoke of Pep he did make clear that in the final 3rd the attackers were free(er) to create as long as they fell back in line as soon as they lost possession. And in general you can see that Barca Pep allowed for much more spontaneity than the current iteration.

Now this could be simply down to the quality of players he had then - as good as this city side are they can’t hold a candle to the individual brilliance of Messi, Iniesta, Henry and co. You’d have to be supremely arrogant to deny those artists their lick of paint.

Or it could just be his own evolution as a manager. I never really watched Pep’s Bayern much - were they more fluid in the final 3rd than current city?

In any case it’s not cut and dry that Pep drains all creativity out of his players - we’ve seen enough great goals from City to know that much. If it was all formulaic you’d never see them score goals from low xG long range efforts for example.

It’s more pronounced with Arsenal though. Again could be a trust in players thing, or just a general Mikel thing. Jesus seemed to have enough freedom and leeway (back when he could actually move) in his play to suggest that it is the former. He used to be the one that brought the chaos factor to our attack.

 

[PrinzPoldi]

Putting aside the general patronisingness here (there’s no need…) you do raise some interesting points.

When Henry spoke of Pep he did make clear that in the final 3rd the attackers were free(er) to create as long as they fell back in line as soon as they lost possession. And in general you can see that Barca Pep allowed for much more spontaneity than the current iteration.

Now this could be simply down to the quality of players he had then - as good as this city side are they can’t hold a candle to the individual brilliance of Messi, Iniesta, Henry and co. You’d have to be supremely arrogant to deny those artists their lick of paint.

Or it could just be his own evolution as a manager. I never really watched Pep’s Bayern much - were they more fluid in the final 3rd than current city?

In any case it’s not cut and dry that Pep drains all creativity out of his players - we’ve seen enough great goals from City to know that much. If it was all formulaic you’d never see them score goals from low xG long range efforts for example.

It’s more pronounced with Arsenal though. Again could be a trust in players thing, or just a general Mikel thing. Jesus seemed to have enough freedom and leeway (back when he could actually move) in his play to suggest that it is the former. He used to be the one that brought the chaos factor to our attack.

Pep's last year at Bayern is exactly the same as his last year with Barca.

Bored as fxxk.

 

[Dokaka]

Putting aside the general patronisingness here (there’s no need…) you do raise some interesting points.

When Henry spoke of Pep he did make clear that in the final 3rd the attackers were free(er) to create as long as they fell back in line as soon as they lost possession. And in general you can see that Barca Pep allowed for much more spontaneity than the current iteration.

Now this could be simply down to the quality of players he had then - as good as this city side are they can’t hold a candle to the individual brilliance of Messi, Iniesta, Henry and co. You’d have to be supremely arrogant to deny those artists their lick of paint.

Or it could just be his own evolution as a manager. I never really watched Pep’s Bayern much - were they more fluid in the final 3rd than current city?

In any case it’s not cut and dry that Pep drains all creativity out of his players - we’ve seen enough great goals from City to know that much. If it was all formulaic you’d never see them score goals from low xG long range efforts for example.

It’s more pronounced with Arsenal though. Again could be a trust in players thing, or just a general Mikel thing. Jesus seemed to have enough freedom and leeway (back when he could actually move) in his play to suggest that it is the former. He used to be the one that brought the chaos factor to our attack.

If we're being completely honest here, freedom usually goes hand in hand with the quality of the players you have available and I simply don't think Arsenal's current attacking talent (with the exception of Øde) are good enough to warrant much creative freedom.

The Athletic put out a good video highlighting some of this stuff recently. Starts around 11:27:


I think it's an interesting debate with no correct answer. When, how much and how you stop micromanaging the movement patterns and flow of the game is a real question. I think it's undeniable that this intensely drilled positional play is a massive floor raiser, but how much it lowers the ceiling is an interesting discussion and something even the best managers in the world clearly haven't figured out.

 

[A_G]

Interesting @Macho

 

[boonthegoon]

View attachment 23721

Interesting @Macho

Which media called it a magic strategy? If I'm not wrong, most of the talk was criticizing our approach

 

[DJ_Markstar]

This is a fair point. All I would say is that forever the bridesmaid will take its toll too.

They've only just started competing for the title in the 22/23 season I really don't think that's an issue

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Freedom is one of those give and take things. It would definitely be more fun and less predictable if our players were let off the leash a bit, particularly in the final third.

The counter point is we'd lose quite a bit of defensive stability I'd think.

In reality there isn't this big distinction between defenders and attackers. All players do both in and out of possession.

Gabriel and Saliba and their positioning and the patterns they progress the ball contribute heavily to the way we attack.

A lot of our best defensive work actually comes from the likes of Ødegaard, Havertz and even Saka. Our press up top is really quite exceptional a lot of the time and for that to work effectively that has to be micromanaged heavily. Players need to be in the exact correct positions otherwise it all falls apart.

 

[LookingForEric]

Scoring goals doesn't mean the system isn't rigid. A machine can be effective and do the same 100 times but when the conditions change it won't be effective anymore.

You don't think, you just repeat. You don't even know about football boy, you are just a cheerleader and it's ok, but don't try to use stats as arguments of two things aren't correlated.

Arteta's football is precisely based on prefabricated patterns. When everything is under the right conditions it works. When things goes out of what his system is prepared to work then everything dries up. Players are not prepared to think out of the box because he has systematically drain that liberty and creativity as pep has.

Those fundamental differences between Wenger system and Pep system for example and many times Henry talked about it.

If you can't differentiate between rigid and effective don't even quote me.

TLDR -

Arteta deploys an elite system that scores lots of goals and concedes very few goals, sometimes he also loses games of football (which is normal). He doesn’t currently have consistent elite players that win games, which is fine.

 

[LookingForEric]

I can’t believe guys like @El Realista are just belittling how good we have been? It’s bonkers to me. You build a squad and system that is top of the league with 5 games to go and all you can do is belittle it?

Dude I must be on a different planet.

 

[PrinzPoldi]

Putting aside the general patronisingness here (there’s no need…) you do raise some interesting points.

When Henry spoke of Pep he did make clear that in the final 3rd the attackers were free(er) to create as long as they fell back in line as soon as they lost possession. And in general you can see that Barca Pep allowed for much more spontaneity than the current iteration.

Now this could be simply down to the quality of players he had then - as good as this city side are they can’t hold a candle to the individual brilliance of Messi, Iniesta, Henry and co. You’d have to be supremely arrogant to deny those artists their lick of paint.

Or it could just be his own evolution as a manager. I never really watched Pep’s Bayern much - were they more fluid in the final 3rd than current city?

In any case it’s not cut and dry that Pep drains all creativity out of his players - we’ve seen enough great goals from City to know that much. If it was all formulaic you’d never see them score goals from low xG long range efforts for example.

It’s more pronounced with Arsenal though. Again could be a trust in players thing, or just a general Mikel thing. Jesus seemed to have enough freedom and leeway (back when he could actually move) in his play to suggest that it is the former. He used to be the one that brought the chaos factor to our attack.

I think some just took it to the extreme.

IMO, players on the field have a lot of freedom, but there are some criteria within.
Otherwise, we don't need any tactics or setup but just let the players play freewill football, even if they are all talented superstars.

A lot of our players do have freedom, just like when to cut in, when to attack the space, when to hold the ball longer, when to make the pass or shoot by themselves.

If we talk about "rigid", it will be on our defensive tactics.
On the offensive end, there is no such "rigid" thing.
Mostly we can say, we do not have enough creative players to do the creative things.

 

[A_G]

Which media called it a magic strategy? If I'm not wrong, most of the talk was criticizing our approach

Look at the picture of the interview:

Spoiler

He’s delirious, he hasn’t slept in weeks

 

[Macho]

Which media called it a magic strategy? If I'm not wrong, most of the talk was criticizing our approach

Yeah I didn't have a problem with it against the treble winners, we used to beg both Wenger and Arteta to play more conservatively against our toughest opposition.

I think the biggest takeaway from that Mourinho quote is he's trying to son him and act like he invented parking the bus.

 

[El Duderino]

Look at the picture of the interview:

Spoiler

He’s delirious, he hasn’t slept in weeks

That's just a stock photo for recently divorced dad?

 

[Rex Stone]

View attachment 23721

Interesting @Macho

Tbf he’s chatting bollocks here.

I remember him absolutely stealing a win at the Etihad in 2013/14 and Martin Tyler was creaming himself calling it a Mourinho masterclass.

Now he’s old and washed he’s saying people are biting his style. Strong Sam Allardyce “I could win the CL with Real Madrid” energy with these quotes.