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Mohamed Elneny: What is he good 4?

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Fallout

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he's looked really solid for two months. in the PL he averages 88 passes per game, 55 of which are forward, at a 93% accuracy. he's basically a glue player that brings the ball effectively from defense to attack. a rich man's denilson.

yes we can upgrade on him. no it's not a priority for this summer because our real priority is a striker. we've had far too many games this season where we've had most of the possession and have either failed to score or scored only once. i think that frustration is making people over-diagnose what the problem is. no player or formation is going to change the fact that we have several blunt players up top.

i genuinely think we've won the midfield battle in a large majority of the games elneny's played. and i also think there's a good chance he will improve next season. i think he'll get a lot better in the tackle next season.
 
Alright mate, let me address some of your points. The first thing I'll say is that the midfield is a problem and has been for years. It's a bit rich to come on here and tell us what's wrong with our team. Just because Giroud is awful doesn't mean that our midfield is fine.

Due to Wenger's actions we need our CM's to be exceptionally talented players in order to move the team forward and take us up a level. Now I invite you to look through this thread and find instances of people calling Elneny crap, I think you'll be hard pressed to find one if any at all. The criticism comes from him not being good enough to take us up a level, especially because we know how awful Wenger is in the transfer window.

Since Viera left we've been looking for an exceptional CM, Elneny is doing a good job but he's not exceptional. You say he's outpeformed everyone in our midfield, you mean Ramsey and Flamini? Yeah they're both crap. I don't think he'll be outperforming Cazorla or Wilshere but we'll see.

So to sum up my response. You're getting yourself all knotted up over people criticising Elneny but no one is saying he's rubbish. He's just not the midfield controller or the Viera replacement we've needed for years. And with a manager like Wenger at the helm the signing of Elneny probably means we'll be waiting a while longer.

Everyone wants exceptionally talented CMs, but, the roles for Vieira and Elneny are completely different because you're dealing with different eras, where Vieira--then Gilberto Silva--were shields for the back four. This role was exemplified by players like Makelele, and Matic now, to a certain extent, but Arsenal's midfield doesn't have a singular holder, with the 4-2-3-1, you have a double-pivot central midfield pair that has to maintain and recycle possession so that the 3-1 can get more of the ball.

I'm not talking about Ramsey or Flamini, I've even talking about Coquelin, and Cazorla does a different job.

You can continue to call me getting "all knotted up" or whatever, but the fact that you have the creative firepower in your team and have a striker who scores only 12 goals in the league? C'mon now. To pretend that your problem is in midfield, to me, is laughable. In the top four, you've scored the least amount of goals, while not having a defense that can make up for the lack of offensive output.

I'm just saying, if you want to critique Wenger and your club, it's because Arsenal continues to try and find underrated talent like Henry from Juve or Vieira from Milan or Gilberto Silva from obscurity, and just splash some cash on what you need: a striker and a CB.
 

BBF

Real name: Ragip Xh...

Country: Netherlands
Basically unless our midfielders score like Lampard by making runs into the box or go running around making tackles they're completely useless? Elneny's a midfielder who's done an exceptional job in recent weeks, he's done his job excellently. Our problems recently have nothing to do with Elneny being in midfield, in fact he's helped considering the problems with our midfield not so long ago with Ramsey-Flamini and Ramsey-Coquelin.

I also believe that his positioning has been excellent and has added to us being a tad more solid and having a better overall structure without the ball which has helped us keep 3 clean sheets on the bounce and that was partnered with the much maligned Ramsey. If you add to Elneny a more well rounded partner to Elneny and I think our midfield goes up another level. The fact is people say Coquelin is limited, but when you get a guy like Elneny who's a lot more attributes to him and people complain about him not being a specific type of player. He's not a B2B and he's not a DLP, he's simply a centre midfielder who does the work a CM should be doing. A lot of it isn't exactly flashy and it isn't all guns blazing running all over the pitch like most midfielders who catch the eye, but he does a lot of the work that is under-appreciated by a lot of football fans. Passing and moving, providing a bit of energy to the midfield, getting it to Özil and our attacking players a lot quicker than Ramsey and Coquelin do. Taking the ball from our back four also. I also believe he's improving constantly in a lot of aspects of his game.

I know people don't think much of the awards, but 2 player of the month award tells you a lot of people are impressed with his contributions in midfield. As am I, I think he's good player with a lot of upside and one who's contributions have been overlooked a hell of a lot.

Plus he's apart of the African Trio.

That's not what people are criticising him for. They're criticising him because he doesn't make runs, he doesn't contribute defensively, he doesn't control games and he doesn't create anything. He does the simple things, he can pass and move, but that's not enough. Just because he's able to release the ball and receive it through the space that doesn't mean he's quality. He's not a game changer and a player of his ilk isn't good enough in a team that has ambitions to win quality titles.
 

Trilly

Hates A-M, Saka, Arteta and You
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Country: England
Everyone wants exceptionally talented CMs, but, the roles for Vieira and Elneny are completely different because you're dealing with different eras, where Vieira--then Gilberto Silva--were shields for the back four. This role was exemplified by players like Makelele, and Matic now, to a certain extent, but Arsenal's midfield doesn't have a singular holder, with the 4-2-3-1, you have a double-pivot central midfield pair that has to maintain and recycle possession so that the 3-1 can get more of the ball.

I'm not talking about Ramsey or Flamini, I've even talking about Coquelin, and Cazorla does a different job.

You can continue to call me getting "all knotted up" or whatever, but the fact that you have the creative firepower in your team and have a striker who scores only 12 goals in the league? C'mon now. To pretend that your problem is in midfield, to me, is laughable. In the top four, you've scored the least amount of goals, while not having a defense that can make up for the lack of offensive output.

I'm just saying, if you want to critique Wenger and your club, it's because Arsenal continues to try and find underrated talent like Henry from Juve or Vieira from Milan or Gilberto Silva from obscurity, and just splash some cash on what you need: a striker and a CB.
Your problem is that you refuse to accept that our midfield is flawed simply because our striking situation is worse.

You are also assuming that we are following the 4231 model that Mourinho used to use where the '4 and 2' stay back and keep things simple while the '3 and 1' are left to run the attack. We don't do that, we require attacking contribution from our double pivot.

Your need to defend Elneny is clouding your judgement imo. Like I said, Elneny hasn't come here to replace Coquelin. He is not a DM - from what we've seen so far he's a box to box player.

Look at the players he's in competition with: Cazorla, Ramsey Wilshere. Bar Ramsey they can all do Elneny's job and then some. We needed a ball playing DM, Elneny is not that. We needed a player like Cazorla but with the physique to play CM, Elneny is not that either.

Do you honestly think Elneny will start ahead of Wilshere or Cazorla? He's clearly a squad player at the moment, a player signed when we needed a starting quality CM. That's why the reaction hasn't been positive.
 
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MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
Trusted ⭐
he's looked really solid for two months. in the PL he averages 88 passes per game, 55 of which are forward, at a 93% accuracy. he's basically a glue player that brings the ball effectively from defense to attack. a rich man's denilson.

yes we can upgrade on him. no it's not a priority for this summer because our real priority is a striker. we've had far too many games this season where we've had most of the possession and have either failed to score or scored only once. i think that frustration is making people over-diagnose what the problem is. no player or formation is going to change the fact that we have several blunt players up top.

i genuinely think we've won the midfield battle in a large majority of the games elneny's played. and i also think there's a good chance he will improve next season. i think he'll get a lot better in the tackle next season.
They are both massive priorities this summer. Our midfield is imbalanced and lacks control. We need a striker but we still need a midfielder just as much.
 

BBF

Real name: Ragip Xh...

Country: Netherlands
It's getting boring having to reiterate that no one's genuinely calling him ****. The fact that people are getting so insensitive over others saying he isn't good enough suggests how little some people rate the importance of a midfield. But then again some people think Coquelin's world class here.
 

Trilly

Hates A-M, Saka, Arteta and You
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Country: England
It's getting boring having to reiterate that no one's genuinely calling him ****. The fact that people are getting so insensitive over others saying he isn't good enough suggests how little some people rate the importance of a midfield. But then again some people think Coquelin's world class here.
Honestly, balance is something that's really ignored amongst fans.

Don't even want to sound snobby but it makes you wonder how many people actually understand football on here.
 

MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
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Honestly, balance is something that's really ignored amongst fans.

Don't even want to sound snobby but it makes you wonder how many people actually understand football on here.
It is kinda snobby but I understand :lol:

Football is a game of many interpretations.
 

razörist

Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes

Country: Morocco
Obviously he's not of the required standard for a top midfield. But we have many and more midfielders that more or less do not fit the bill.He's basicly the perfect 12th man, if his skillset includes staying injury free. I'm perfectly happy with having him here.
 
Your problem is that you refuse to accept that our midfield is flawed simply because our striking situation is worse.

You are also assuming that we are following the 4231 model that Mourinho used to use where the '4 and 2' stay back and keep things simple while the '3 and 1' are left to run the attack. We don't do that, we require attacking contribution from our double pivot.

Your need to defend Elneny is clouding your judgement imo. Like I said, Elneny hasn't come here to replace Coquelin. He is not a DM from what we've seen so far he's a box to box player.

Look at the players he's in competition with: Cazorla, Ramsey Wilshere. Bar Ramsey they can all do Elneny's job and then some. We needed a ball playing DM, Elneny is not that. We needed a player like Cazorla but with the physique to play CM, Elneny is not that either.

Do you honestly think Elneny will start ahead of Wilshere or Cazorla? He's clearly a squad player at the moment, a player signed when we needed a starting quality CM. That's why the reaction hasn't been positive.

Well, your "squad player" is doing what Wenger wants him to do. If he was as limited as you say, I'm not sure why he would winning player of the month awards. Looking at the list of those who have won multiple awards, they don't seem like "squadies" to me. Sorry, I'm "knotted up," let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I never said Elneny was a DM. Nor did I say he was supposed to replace Coquelin. They play pretty well together, actually. I think Elneny is a tactical player that does the right thing at the right time. He'd be better appreciated in Italy than in England, where running and making tackles somehow is better than a tactical player, but hey, that's England.

By the way, if you guys get Xhaka and are expecting him to be making tackles and all that other jazz, you will be disappointed. He works hard, but his passes are designed to open up his team and give them the ability to attack better. He's not Pirlo who can tackle.

So, I think if we're going to be talking about confusion, it's you Trilly, you're saying he doesn't do anything, or nothing special, but I don't think you understand what his actual job is. I never brought up Mourinho, again that was you, but you're talking about the effectiveness of a player working in a scheme, but the real issue is that Arsenal isn't getting results because you're not scoring.

You're telling me Arsenal should have a tough time scoring against Sunderland? Or Crystal Palace? Were those down to the midfield? Is giving up goals to Andy Carroll really down to your midfield, or your distinct lack of presence from your CBs?

No team in the top four has scored less goals than you, everyone one of them has a striker who has scored more than your top scorer, Giroud, at 12, and if you want to project your frustrations on this lost season onto Elneny, cool, but don't make it cover up the fact that Arsenal has very fixable problems that are far deeper than your midfield.

Your team has amazing potential, truly, but I can't--for the life of me--understand why Wenger hasn't splashed the cash on a CB and striker, it would make your team, just... frightening. You guys grab Higuain and someone like Laporte (though he'd probably need time to develop) but if you can grab those two parts, even with this squad, you're a very different animal.
 

BBF

Real name: Ragip Xh...

Country: Netherlands
He reminds me of the players Fergie used to use in his squads that weren't anything special, and didn't actually improve his starting 11. They'd come in, provide energy and do a job. But they weren't, and never were game changers. The types of players you'd send on with 10 mins to go to see out games, or the types of players you'd stick on Fabregas to frustrate the **** out of him.

They're useful, championship squads have players like this. But they're not starters. Let's be honest. No shame in that.
 

GDeep™

League is very weak
it makes you wonder how many people actually understand football on here.

Robert-Pires-believes-that-Franck-Ribery-has-a-big-impact-in-the-team-of-France-for-the-World-Cup-2014-qualifiers-football.jpg
 

Trilly

Hates A-M, Saka, Arteta and You
Trusted ⭐

Country: England
Well, your "squad player" is doing what Wenger wants him to do. If he was as limited as you say, I'm not sure why he would winning player of the month awards. Looking at the list of those who have won multiple awards, they don't seem like "squadies" to me. Sorry, I'm "knotted up," let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I never said Elneny was a DM. Nor did I say he was supposed to replace Coquelin. They play pretty well together, actually. I think Elneny is a tactical player that does the right thing at the right time. He'd be better appreciated in Italy than in England, where running and making tackles somehow is better than a tactical player, but hey, that's England.

By the way, if you guys get Xhaka and are expecting him to be making tackles and all that other jazz, you will be disappointed. He works hard, but his passes are designed to open up his team and give them the ability to attack better. He's not Pirlo who can tackle.

So, I think if we're going to be talking about confusion, it's you Trilly, you're saying he doesn't do anything, or nothing special, but I don't think you understand what his actual job is. I never brought up Mourinho, again that was you, but you're talking about the effectiveness of a player working in a scheme, but the real issue is that Arsenal isn't getting results because you're not scoring.

You're telling me Arsenal should have a tough time scoring against Sunderland? Or Crystal Palace? Were those down to the midfield? Is giving up goals to Andy Carroll really down to your midfield, or your distinct lack of presence from your CBs?

No team in the top four has scored less goals than you, everyone one of them has a striker who has scored more than your top scorer, Giroud, at 12, and if you want to project your frustrations on this lost season onto Elneny, cool, but don't make it cover up the fact that Arsenal has very fixable problems that are far deeper than your midfield.

Your team has amazing potential, truly, but I can't--for the life of me--understand why Wenger hasn't splashed the cash on a CB and striker, it would make your team, just... frightening. You guys grab Higuain and someone like Laporte (though he'd probably need time to develop) but if you can grab those two parts, even with this squad, you're a very different animal.
Ah come on man, we're just going in circles now. He's doing his job and he's doing it well, nobody is denying that.

You really are confused because everyone here knows striker is priority number one. Your whole argument is based on your assumption that we're blaming Elneny for our poor results, that's something you've pulled out of thin air to suit your 'everybody hates Mo' agenda.

For the last time, nobody is projecting frustrations onto Elneny. People are simply saying that he is not what we, Arsenal need in our starting eleven. You keep telling me he's a tactical player...ok. You keep telling me he does his job...ok. You keep telling me he does the basics well and recycles posession...ok mate I get it.

At the end of the day why can't you just understand that El Neny isn't the right fit for our midfield?
 

MutableEarth

Reiss' Dad
Trusted ⭐
Ah come on man, we're just going in circles now. He's doing his job and he's doing it well, nobody is denying that.

You really are confused because everyone here knows striker is priority number one. Your whole argument is based on your assumption that we're blaming Elneny for our poor results, that's something you've pulled out of thin air to suit your 'everybody hates Mo' agenda.

For the last time, nobody is projecting frustrations onto Elneny. People are simply saying that he is not what we, Arsenal need in our starting eleven. You keep telling me he's a tactical player...ok. You keep telling me he does his job...ok. You keep telling me he does the basics well and recycles posession...ok mate I get it.

At the end of the day why can't you just understand that El Neny isn't the right fit for our midfield?
Just like to help amend that last question - it's not that he isn't a right fit for our midfield. I do really like him as a player who can fill in and play at a decent level for us if we need him - which is pretty much what he has done so far. It's simply that he isn't going to complete or elevate our team.
 
Ah come on man, we're just going in circles now. He's doing his job and he's doing it well, nobody is denying that.

You really are confused because everyone here knows striker is priority number one. Your whole argument is based on your assumption that we're blaming Elneny for our poor results, that's something you've pulled out of thin air to suit your 'everybody hates Mo' agenda.

For the last time, nobody is projecting frustrations onto Elneny. People are simply saying that he is not what we, Arsenal need in our starting eleven. You keep telling me he's a tactical player...ok. You keep telling me he does his job...ok. You keep telling me he does the basics well and recycles posession...ok mate I get it.

At the end of the day why can't you just understand that El Neny isn't the right fit for our midfield?

Let me sum this up: Elneny is not a "squaddie" he's a player who deserves to be in your starting XI, that's what it boils down to. You disagree, awesome, but I'm wondering, why? He wins two player of the month awards and yet you think he's only fit for your bench?

I brought up the striker stuff to illustrate the idea that your midfield doesn't work. If you have Giroud, still, and instead of Elneny and Coquelin, you suddenly get Xhaka and Verrati or Matuidi, it doesn't change the fact that your midfield is not the problem.

You say he's not right, but Wenger keeps playing him and he's only been at Arsenal a few months and he's done a very good job. How does that translate into him not being good enough?

The critiques of Elneny are "needs to bulk up" or "doesn't make enough tackles" or whatever, but that doesn't really address anything, because he's making the midfield tick.

Oh, and people have literally said because Wenger brought him, that he's the sign of failure. I could go back and find those posts for you, if you'd like?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
 

Trilly

Hates A-M, Saka, Arteta and You
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Country: England
Just like to help amend that last question - it's not that he isn't a right fit for our midfield. I do really like him as a player who can fill in and play at a decent level for us if we need him - which is pretty much what he has done so far. It's simply that he isn't going to complete or elevate our team.
Yeah, when I meant right fit I meant if we want to be competing for trophies, especially in Europe. There's no denying that he's come into the team and stabilised the midfield. Hence the two player of the month awards.

@nongoonerinpeace please see the above. Right now he deserves to be in the starting eleven yes, you won't find me or many others disagreeing with that. He keeps the midfield ticking over but we need someone else in the midfield pivot to contribute to our attack. Do you see the problem now?

Imo you can't keep a midfield ticking over while also contributing to the attack. Elneny has shown that he currently doesn't have the defensive ability to be our deepest lying midfielder. So where do we get our attacking contribution from? You can't exactly have your deepest lying midfielder contributing to the attack can you?

He is not a squaddie right now but if he doesn't develop and Arsenal want to successfully compete for trophies then you can bet your bottom dollar that he will be.

Lastly, I would like to reaffirm that a team is able to have multiple problems. Stop acting like the forward situation is our one and only problem.
 
Yeah, when I meant right fit I meant if we want to be competing for trophies, especially in Europe. There's no denying that he's come into the team and stabilised the midfield. Hence the two player of the month awards.

@nongoonerinpeace please see the above. Right now he deserves to be in the starting eleven yes, you won't find me or many others disagreeing with that. He keeps the midfield ticking over but we need someone else in the midfield pivot to contribute to our attack. Do you see the problem now?

Imo you can't keep a midfield ticking over while also contributing to the attack. Elneny has shown that he currently doesn't have the defensive ability to be our deepest lying midfielder. So where do we get our attacking contribution from? You can't exactly have your deepest lying midfielder contributing to the attack can you?

He is not a squaddie right now but if he doesn't develop and Arsenal want to successfully compete for trophies then you can bet your bottom dollar that he will be.

Lastly, I would like to reaffirm that a team is able to have multiple problems. Stop acting like the forward situation is our one and only problem.

First, I quoted that his reticence from shooting was a directive from Wenger, where he is being told to not do as much attacking as he normally does.

Second, to talk about problems in your attack due to your CM when you play with 4-2-3-1 is rich. His job isn't to do that, probably as a result of Wenger's directives from the first point.

Third, he's not your deep lying playmaker, he's a CM who makes sure the team works. But with your setup, neither one of your CMs really should be directing play. Also, he does have the eye for a good pass, games against Hull or Watford show as much. Now, you might say "who cares about those teams?" Well, it's been stumbles against teams like that, that have undone your season.

Fourth, yes teams can have multiple problems. Your midfield isn't one of them. Your CBs and strikers are.

Xhaka isn't going to change your team that much. Having someone who can make your opposing team's defenders think twice will open up the passing lanes, because teams just have to cut off supply to your forward and they have you done for, especially since your players then return to trying to "walk it in." Your defenders don't dominate and get beaten on set pieces if they're not making horrible mistakes themselves.
 
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