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Arsenal Tactics Talk

4R5Emaniac

Always fresh from Bangladesh
Take individual brilliance away and we have been a poor team so far.. We struggle to create chances, Sanchez is the provider and creator.

We are scoring painful sweaty goals against Burnley, Middlesborough, Bournemouth etc, while against the other so called top teams Liverpool, United, Sp**s, Psg we look clueless and can't create for toffee... We beat chelsea when they were playing a formation Conte was experimenting with, but once they changed it to 3 at the back they gave us a game in the second half..

Sorry for being a dump sceptic but I am not convinced at all so far, I still see the same old weaknesses we have had season after season. 2 in midfield is not working properly so far..
If you take individual brilliance away no team would be worth a look. Its obvious that a club has stand out players.

Which team scores sexy ass goals all the time? Thrashing everybody isn't going to happen and the gap in quality is not as much as it used to be. Chelsea didn't give us any game at all. We beat them playing fantastically well despite circumstances against them.

We have weaknesses sure and I'm very skeptical myself but we're far better from that shower of **** that was last season and have a deeper squad.
 

BobP

Memri Fan
For all those who argue that Wenger does 'tactics', I honestly don't think he does.

Lee Dixon alluded to it in one of the books written by Amy Lawrence when he was describing the development of Ashley Cole.

Think he focuses more on the macro details and then leaves the finer details for the players to figure out on the field.

He might say 'Press player X' but there's no specification about weaker foot, which areas to do it in, which areas to guide the player into when pressing.

It's all good and well being smug when we win 5-1 against a West Ham team devoid of key players and confidence, but it's the finer details which I've alluded to above which determine who come out on top in key moments.

FWIW, I didn't even think we were that impressive in the West Ham game.
 

4R5Emaniac

Always fresh from Bangladesh
For all those who argue that Wenger does 'tactics', I honestly don't think he does.

Lee Dixon alluded to it in one of the books written by Amy Lawrence when he was describing the development of Ashley Cole.

Think he focuses more on the macro details and then leaves the finer details for the players to figure out on the field.

He might say 'Press player X' but there's no specification about weaker foot, which areas to do it in, which areas to guide the player into when pressing.

It's all good and well being smug when we win 5-1 against a West Ham team devoid of key players and confidence, but it's the finer details which I've alluded to above which determine who come out on top in key moments.

FWIW, I didn't even think we were that impressive in the West Ham game.
Those are also tactical calls tbf but he doesn't micromanage to every last detail which can be crucial. Modern coaches and the best ones who play CL in terms of tactics focus on every little detail re the opposition and their squad. We need that going forward since everyone has money to get players and other resources.

One of the big tactical criticisms against Wenger would be that he can't seem to change the tide of a game consistently and pro actively. Playing with 1 cb, many strikers/forwards in structure or a DM at CB or 3 CBs.

Managers like players have their attributes I suppose and different philosophies.
 

Country: Iceland
It's all good and well being smug when we win 5-1 against a West Ham team devoid of key players and confidence, but it's the finer details which I've alluded to above which determine who come out on top in key moments.
.

How about going unbeaten through whole season? Or go even on defence record in Champions league for most clean sheets leading up to the first Champions league final the club has played in? How about that we are unbeaten away this season so far?

Of course Wenger tactics differs from the defence masters like Mourinho or everyone favorite on here, Klopp pressing. But Wenger is not trying to achieve what they are doing.

Wenger wants his team to be a attacking team who play total football, it will sacrifice a lot compared to Mourinho defence tactics. And Wenger wants his teams energy levels to be even throughout the whole match, so he wont go with the pressing like Klopp does, which by the way will kill Liverpool after new year.

And this letting players out with freedom to express them selves. It may look like a bad idea when it doesn't work. But throughout Wenger career here I think it has create a few of the best players that have played this game. There is no coincidence that most players improve under Wenger and fall off when they leave him, while under managers like Mourinho who have to buy ready made players that other coaches trained, and as soon as they hit bad form they are kept there until he leaves.
 

carlito'sway

Established Member
For all those who argue that Wenger does 'tactics', I honestly don't think he does.

Lee Dixon alluded to it in one of the books written by Amy Lawrence when he was describing the development of Ashley Cole.

Think he focuses more on the macro details and then leaves the finer details for the players to figure out on the field.

He might say 'Press player X' but there's no specification about weaker foot, which areas to do it in, which areas to guide the player into when pressing.

It's all good and well being smug when we win 5-1 against a West Ham team devoid of key players and confidence, but it's the finer details which I've alluded to above which determine who come out on top in key moments.

FWIW, I didn't even think we were that impressive in the West Ham game.

Come on mate. You, of all people, should know better. It is happening right here before our eyes again this season. From the Alexis Sanchez transformation as a CF, to the use of Iwobi as an inverted winger to now using Ox as as out and out one. We started the season with a regular 4-2-3-1 and now we are using a flexible 4-4-1-1. I could go on and on....
Case in point, pay attention to Monreal (and Ox) role in the first 15/ 20 min vs WHU. Do you think it was an accident? No, it was not. It was a deliberate effort to attack the space vs a team playing a 5-3-2. Those are finer tactical details.
Wenger is a guy fully involved into the analytics of the game, what for then if not to use them tactically?
 

Sykes

Active Member
Isn't it funny how people say Wenger doesn't do tactics but at the end of every games we lose, he can tell you where it went wrong?? I mean, I'm not saying he's a tactical mastermind, but he isn't the novice people make him out to be.
No way Klopp is a better tactician than Wenger...Harry Redknapp is a tactical novice...not Wenger.
 

Sykes

Active Member
How about going unbeaten through whole season? Or go even on defence record in Champions league for most clean sheets leading up to the first Champions league final the club has played in? How about that we are unbeaten away this season so far?

Of course Wenger tactics differs from the defence masters like Mourinho or everyone favorite on here, Klopp pressing. But Wenger is not trying to achieve what they are doing.

Wenger wants his team to be a attacking team who play total football, it will sacrifice a lot compared to Mourinho defence tactics. And Wenger wants his teams energy levels to be even throughout the whole match, so he wont go with the pressing like Klopp does, which by the way will kill Liverpool after new year.

And this letting players out with freedom to express them selves. It may look like a bad idea when it doesn't work. But throughout Wenger career here I think it has create a few of the best players that have played this game. There is no coincidence that most players improve under Wenger and fall off when they leave him, while under managers like Mourinho who have to buy ready made players that other coaches trained, and as soon as they hit bad form they are kept there until he leaves.
Exactly. Mourinho isn't better at attacking football than Wenger is...so it goes both ways.
 

Vinci

The Sultan of Unai

Country: Netherlands
Of course Wenger does tactics, but the difference with, for example, someone like Conte is that he doesn't drill the team endlessly. He prefers players to figure things out themselves and gives them more freedom to express themselves.

There are pros and cons to both ways, but it seems that lately well drilled teams have more success. If you don't drill to perfection, you have to rely on individual brilliance, as teams like Barca and Madrid heavily do.
 

carlito'sway

Established Member
Very good article on Arseblog.

"Moving onto Arsenal, and it is Arsène Wenger who is trying to bring about those same ideas with the use of Alexis Sanchez upfront. By deploying him there, a lot of focus of The Chilean adding runs to his game to balance his predilection to dropping into midfield, but actually delve deeper, and Wenger has been incessant in interviews that the killer factor, and what explains his continued use there, is Alexis’ dribbling.

“He has the instinct of a real striker,” said Wenger after Arsenal beat Bournemouth 3-1 though there are plenty more quotes in the lead-up to the game where he lauds Alexis’s dribbling. “He wants to hit you, he wants to go at you. When he gets the ball, he runs forward and he runs at any defender. He shows, maybe sometimes to excess, that dribbling quality is an important quality for a striker. It’s his game and you do not want to take that out of his game. His dribbling is provocative, it’s not retention, it’s provocative, to create damage.”

http://arseblog.com/2016/12/tactics-column-joy-alexis-sanchez/
 

Goonerozil33

Active Member
Of course Wenger does tactics, but the difference with, for example, someone like Conte is that he doesn't drill the team endlessly. He prefers players to figure things out themselves and gives them more freedom to express themselves.
I think you are mistaking defensive drilling with tactics. A lot of times pundits and amateur analyst tries to equate both. Defensive drilling is what Conte did to Chelsea. He gave them a structure and let the individual qualities of their attack shine. A lot of coaches tend to drill teams defensively and focus on Set pieces and individual brilliance in attack -> Mourinho, Pulis,Moyes,Conte,Simeone etc all belong to this category. There are managers who focus on pressing and quick transitions as both offensive and defensive strategy-> Pep(after Barca), Klopp, Pochettino, Bielsa etc. I dont think Wenger falls into these two category. In a way he is such a unique manager who uses quick transitions and slow build up in equal measures. I think over the 20 years Wenger has varied his attacking and defensive style. He has played counter attacking football till 2005 and then possession football from 06-11.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
For all those who argue that Wenger does 'tactics', I honestly don't think he does.

Lee Dixon alluded to it in one of the books written by Amy Lawrence when he was describing the development of Ashley Cole.

Think he focuses more on the macro details and then leaves the finer details for the players to figure out on the field.

He might say 'Press player X' but there's no specification about weaker foot, which areas to do it in, which areas to guide the player into when pressing.

It's all good and well being smug when we win 5-1 against a West Ham team devoid of key players and confidence, but it's the finer details which I've alluded to above which determine who come out on top in key moments.

FWIW, I didn't even think we were that impressive in the West Ham game.
Can't believe you posted that tbf. Wenger is data mad, and possibly over thinks things and analyses too much. If anything his tactics are overly complex for the players.

Did you watch the City, Chesea match. Both teams went through each other like a knife through butter. End to end. Liverpool were in complete disarray when Bournouth pressed in the last 20 minutes. Gaps everywhere. Don't get me started on that terrible United, Everton game.

But when Arsenal have some gaps, frustration at not winning the league means that everyone's looking to point them out.
 

4R5Emaniac

Always fresh from Bangladesh
If anything his tactics are overly complex for the players.
This is true and it has good and bad effects. Özil goal scoring or his last early season form etc. Bad effects like Ox right wing with no instructions, Xhaka b2b, Cesc, Ramsey and Wilshere's positional issues etc.

For complete opposite reasons, Mou and Wagner both are better off with finished players. Wenger is better with youth because he gets them obviously. Gotta love football.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
This is true and it has good and bad effects. Özil goal scoring or his last early season form etc. Bad effects like Ox right wing with no instructions, Xhaka b2b, Cesc, Ramsey and Wilshere's positional issues etc.

For complete opposite reasons, Mou and Wagner both are better off with finished players. Wenger is better with youth because he gets them obviously. Gotta love football.
Agree with most of your post, but there's no way anyone is sent out without instructions. All players are drilled meticulously in the EPL otherwise the team would be at the bottom of the table quite quickly.
 

4R5Emaniac

Always fresh from Bangladesh
Agree with most of your post, but there's no way anyone is sent out without instructions. All players are drilled meticulously in the EPL otherwise the team would be at the bottom of the table quite quickly.
Instructions as in detailed ones with what to do in certain situations instead of resorting to run, beat the fullback and cross all the time. Some players need that platform and a detailed way of playing since they can't figure out everything. That is something the modern coaches like Pep, Mou, Klopp, Conte etc are good at doing. Maximizing the output of a limited but explosive player. Wenger on the other hand can improve superb technical players beyond their known capacities and another thing is he is really good at maximizing their outputs too. Arteta, Cazorla for example. Arteta could be such a good no.6 or Santi in CM. Brilliant.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
You say that but Mourinho in the last 2 seasons in charge of 2 x £450m EPL teams has lost just under half his games. He doesn't know his best team and nobody seems to be following his instructions.

I'd strike him from that list mate. :lol:
 

4R5Emaniac

Always fresh from Bangladesh
You say that but Mourinho in the last 2 seasons in charge of 2 x £450m EPL teams has lost just under half his games. He doesn't know his best team and nobody seems to be following his instructions.

I'd strike him from that list mate. :lol:
Well, I said a modern and younger manager who successfully did his stuff which is what Mourinho. He is the pioneer of micro management btw and inspired modern management. Last two seasons won't strike his pretty recent history. Cost doesn't mean quality of the players but he has been **** for the past two seasons. That's another discussion.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Well, I said a modern and younger manager who successfully did his stuff which is what Mourinho. He is the pioneer of micro management btw and inspired modern management. Last two seasons won't strike his pretty recent history. Cost doesn't mean quality of the players but he has been **** for the past two seasons. That's another discussion.
In the long term cost nearly always equals quality - the richest teams finish at or near the top of all leagues, regardless of who the manager is.

Mourinho has spent £650 million on players in his career, the most of any manager ever. It's impossible to tell how good he really is with that kind of advantage over managers of relatively poor teams like Eddie Howe or even Wenger.

We do know his last couple of seasons have poor considering the quality at his disposal.
 

4R5Emaniac

Always fresh from Bangladesh
In the long term cost nearly always equals quality - the richest teams finish at or near the top of all leagues, regardless of who the manager is.

Mourinho has spent £650 million on players in his career, the most of any manager ever. It's impossible to tell how good he really is with that kind of advantage over managers of relatively poor teams like Eddie Howe or even Wenger.

We do know his last couple of seasons have poor considering the quality at his disposal.
Why do you so vehemently defend Wenger then if cost equals quality? We may as well save a few millions by not having a manager. And with the resources at his disposal, why hasn't he done anything in the CL despite regular qualification? Is CL qualification even an achievement at all given the resources at his disposal?

As for Mourinho, well he was the best manager in the world at some point and got results. Won two trebles and reached the semi of the CL most of the time. Won every league and domestic cup. Spending money isn't the end of it, you have to be able to use what you spend it on too. If it were that simple any clown could manage the biggest clubs in the world.

That said and to get back on topic, Mourinho needs to reinvent himself from a tactical and managerial pov. What he inspired has now left it and him with it behind. Hope it never happens.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Why do you so vehemently defend Wenger then if cost equals quality? We may as well save a few millions by not having a manager. And with the resources at his disposal, why hasn't he done anything in the CL despite regular qualification? Is CL qualification even an achievement at all given the resources at his disposal?

As for Mourinho, well he was the best manager in the world at some point and got results. Won two trebles and reached the semi of the CL most of the time. Won every league and domestic cup. Spending money isn't the end of it, you have to be able to use what you spend it on too. If it were that simple any clown could manage the biggest clubs in the world.

That said and to get back on topic, Mourinho needs to reinvent himself from a tactical and managerial pov. What he inspired has now left it and him with it behind. Hope it never happens.
I give up :lol:

Last season, scroll through the teams.
http://talksport.com/football/premi...st-most-expensive-actual-league-position?p=19
 

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