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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Manberg

Predator
I think the one player that unlocks the 4231 and 433 for Arteta is Partey. With him you get the extra stability for the defence. We are hanging onto 5 at the back because of our lack of power and control in the middle.

Arteta’s dream midfield is Xhaka, Partey and Aouar. But you’re right without a player like Partey in there we can’t go to a 4 at the back. Not against any premier league opposition.
 

TornadoTed

Established Member
I think people are being really harsh on yesterdays performance, sometimes you just have to give the opposition some credit. West Ham were shocking in their first match at Newcastle and they had a point to prove, Moyes set them up really well and they played well.

Yesterday was a perfect example of the Premiership for me. There isn't a huge gulf between most teams and the thing that won the match was just that extra bit of quality for both goals. We have that quality and West Ham don't.

Liverpool won 13 games by a 1 goal last season and not just against the top sides, teams like Brighton, Southampton, Norwich, Bournemouth and Palace too. This is La Liga where the top teams steam roller most of the division every week.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
As one of the first posters to want Arteta as our manager, feel able to criticise him. He's making a big mistake with Pepe.

The lad is a talented footballer who cost a fortune by our standards. He struggled to get into the pace of the Prem and Emery dented his confidence, but by the end of last season we were starting to see the reasons we bought him under Arteta.

But this season he's lost his place and going backwards. Willian needs to be back up or Arteta needs to play a different system with them both.

We only have a few truly top 4 players like Auba and Tierney. And we saw what happened when Tierney was missing . . .the difference he makes! We need Pepe firing and scoring.
 

DanDare

Emoji Merchant and Believer-In-Chief
Trusted ⭐

Player:Saliba
I think people are being really harsh on yesterdays performance, sometimes you just have to give the opposition some credit. West Ham were shocking in their first match at Newcastle and they had a point to prove, Moyes set them up really well and they played well.

Yesterday was a perfect example of the Premiership for me. There isn't a huge gulf between most teams and the thing that won the match was just that extra bit of quality for both goals. We have that quality and West Ham don't.

Liverpool won 13 games by a 1 goal last season and not just against the top sides, teams like Brighton, Southampton, Norwich, Bournemouth and Palace too. This is La Liga where the top teams steam roller most of the division every week.

Yeah of course we don't play in a vacuum and how we perform is partly dependent on the opposition. I think the problem I had which I stated was, given the loss of Tierney (as well as already missing Luiz), we didn't have any passers out from the back (Gabriel is ok so far in terms of this). If you play 3/5 ATB one or more defenders has to make up for the lack of midfield passers IMO.

Kolasinac and Holding aren't up to that so think it was the wrong formation
 

dashsnow17

Doesn’t Rate Any Of Our Attackers
Trusted ⭐
Think I have to lay some of the blame for today's performance here

Don't think 5 at the back with these personnel was the way to go.

Kolasinac can't pass like Tierney, Holding can't pass. Ceballos and Xhaka together seem redundant. Really think it should be one or the other.

I would have gone 4231 and played Pepe from the start

What's he supposed to do if not play Xhaka and Ceballos? He has no options there. If he played Elneny everyone would be complaining too.
 

dashsnow17

Doesn’t Rate Any Of Our Attackers
Trusted ⭐
As one of the first posters to want Arteta as our manager, feel able to criticise him. He's making a big mistake with Pepe.

The lad is a talented footballer who cost a fortune by our standards. He struggled to get into the pace of the Prem and Emery dented his confidence, but by the end of last season we were starting to see the reasons we bought him under Arteta.

But this season he's lost his place and going backwards. Willian needs to be back up or Arteta needs to play a different system with them both.

We only have a few truly top 4 players like Auba and Tierney. And we saw what happened when Tierney was missing . . .the difference he makes! We need Pepe firing and scoring.

I wouldn't say Pepe should be starting over Willian just because he should, he should only be starting if he deserves it. But in a game like yesterday do you need to take Willian off for Pepe, can't you put Pepe on and take a defender off? It reinforces the idea that it's a straight-up competition between Willian and Pepe and that Pepe is losing it.

Arteta also just generally seems reluctant to alter the formation towards the end of a match when chasing a goal. Wenger would just do the simple thing, he'd take off a defender and put on an attacker if we needed a goal. Arteta replaces an attacker for an attacker. He could be less cautious.
 

DanDare

Emoji Merchant and Believer-In-Chief
Trusted ⭐

Player:Saliba
What's he supposed to do if not play Xhaka and Ceballos? He has no options there. If he played Elneny everyone would be complaining too.

I'd have played Xhaka or Ceballos with El-Neny and 3 players behind Lacazette, 4 at the back. Kolasinac added nothing:

Tackles: 0
Interceptions: 1
Clearances: 0
Blocked shots: 0
Fouls: 1
 

TornadoTed

Established Member
Yeah of course we don't play in a vacuum and how we perform is partly dependent on the opposition. I think the problem I had which I stated was, given the loss of Tierney (as well as already missing Luiz), we didn't have any passers out from the back (Gabriel is ok so far in terms of this). If you play 3/5 ATB one or more defenders has to make up for the lack of midfield passers IMO.

Kolasinac and Holding aren't up to that so think it was the wrong formation

I agree with your point, the system works with Tierney but definitely not so much with Kolasinac. It would have been fine if Luiz had of been fit enough to start over Kola.

However I don't think it's that easy to just switch formation a few minutes before kick off, a lot of preparation and planning goes in all week in training. Maybe it will be easier further down the line when the squad get comfortable with playing a few different formations but currently the focus seems to be very much on 3-4-3.
 

DanDare

Emoji Merchant and Believer-In-Chief
Trusted ⭐

Player:Saliba
I agree with your point, the system works with Tierney but definitely not so much with Kolasinac. It would have been fine if Luiz had of been fit enough to start over Kola.

However I don't think it's that easy to just switch formation a few minutes before kick off, a lot of preparation and planning goes in all week in training. Maybe it will be easier further down the line when the squad get comfortable with playing a few different formations but currently the focus seems to be very much on 3-4-3.

Yeah to be fair it was a tricky situation. I almost feel like there's a case for putting Xhaka there instead of Kola and having el Neny next to Ceballos.

I'm not pretending I'd have thought of all this (or that it would have worked) spur of the moment. Management is so hard and overall we won.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
I wouldn't say Pepe should be starting over Willian just because he should, he should only be starting if he deserves it. But in a game like yesterday do you need to take Willian off for Pepe, can't you put Pepe on and take a defender off? It reinforces the idea that it's a straight-up competition between Willian and Pepe and that Pepe is losing it.

Arteta also just generally seems reluctant to alter the formation towards the end of a match when chasing a goal. Wenger would just do the simple thing, he'd take off a defender and put on an attacker if we needed a goal. Arteta replaces an attacker for an attacker. He could be less cautious.
His stats at Lille and what we saw at the end of the season show Pepe has got the talents we need now he's getting used to the pace of the Prem. We need another finisher, not just a provider.
 

SA Gunner

Hates Tierney And Wants Him Sold Immediately
Moderator

Country: South Africa

Player:Nketiah
Arteta was out coached by Moyes, people act like Moyes is some joke for some reason but he's a veteran manager in the PL and Arteta will struggle at times going up against these types. Look at Everton they have Ancelotti as their manager ffs.

How is winning the game being outcoached?

Did Wenger outcoach opposition managers in all those games where we had the possession but lost the game?

We had issues today, but we able to weather the storm and then drive home our advantage. So if I had to make a call on the coaching, I think its the other way around old boy.
 

moloso

Active Member
Getting a decent defensive performance out of Kolasinac, Gabriel (newness rather than ability) and Bob Holding is a serious achievement. You can see that a lack of ability and defensive concentration is still waiting to jump out but it's such a far cry from what we've had.

There was a point late in the 2nd half where we were under a bit of pressure and we played some nice one touch stuff in the box and pretty sure the first one or two passes were from Kolasinac - little instances like that show me that with some time and some player turnover we are on the right path even if the performances aren't always there. We definitely go behind at some point in that game under Emery even if we may have ended up winning or at least not losing.
 

BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
How is winning the game being outcoached?

Did Wenger outcoach opposition managers in all those games where we had the possession but lost the game?

We had issues today, but we able to weather the storm and then drive home our advantage. So if I had to make a call on the coaching, I think its the other way around old boy.

It's not as black and white as winning and losing. West Ham had a good strategy and deployed it , we struggled throughout the game and then won because our players were better.
 

Tir Na Nog

Changes Opinion Every 5 Minutes

Country: Ireland
It's not as black and white as winning and losing. West Ham had a good strategy and deployed it , we struggled throughout the game and then won because our players were better.

Yeah let's not get it twisted here, Moyes had a clear gameplan to exploit our weaknesses and it was one that turned the game into a 50-50 with West Ham ending up with more chances. I wouldn't say he's schooled Arteta or anything like that, but he did well combat what we did successfully in the last few games and then exploit the weaknesses left as a result.
 

Tourbillion

Angry & Miserable
We need to see more adventure in these games. ****ing can't stand this formation most of the time.

Tired of Xhaka's Zimmer frame-agility and no right foot. ****ing hell Arsenal sign three midfielders, please.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Yeah let's not get it twisted here, Moyes had a clear gameplan to exploit our weaknesses and it was one that turned the game into a 50-50 with West Ham ending up with more chances. I wouldn't say he's schooled Arteta or anything like that, but he did well combat what we did successfully in the last few games and then exploit the weaknesses left as a result.
Moyes is an under rated manager. Much disparaged on here by PC gamers and hindsight posters.
 

SA Gunner

Hates Tierney And Wants Him Sold Immediately
Moderator

Country: South Africa

Player:Nketiah
It's not as black and white as winning and losing. West Ham had a good strategy and deployed it , we struggled throughout the game and then won because our players were better.

Then how would you respond to us scoring two goals and winning the game? Was the managerial lesson in recess during those goals?

Of course that strategy was effective, Moyes isnt a dummy. He knows that if you remain compact we wont have the creativity to do damage. I wouldnt call that being outcoached, I would call it doing your job.

We have issues, the opposition picked up on that and exploited it.
 

BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
Then how would you respond to us scoring two goals and winning the game? Was the managerial lesson in recess during those goals?

Of course that strategy was effective, Moyes isnt a dummy. He knows that if you remain compact we wont have the creativity to do damage. I wouldnt call that being outcoached, I would call it doing your job.

We have issues, the opposition picked up on that and exploited it.

This post makes it seem like you get what I'm trying to say but just want to argue.
 

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