Cobra Kai Havertz: No Mercy

[db10_therza]

I honestly can't believe people suggest that, absolute madness to change what is working for us just so Havertz could have a role

It was rhetorical. I absolutely do not advocate for changing our shape to accommodate Kai at second striker…

Having an overlapping fullback profile as an option to change games would be great, but it wouldn’t be my default tactic.

What I can stomach is seeing Kai as false 9 for a season if we get an elite left 8. This is preferable to me than paying up to get an average striker in a really bad market for quality strikers and still having a gaping hole in our midfield. I’m assuming here that we can’t do both.

I hope that clarifies things.

 

[Maybe]

It was rhetorical. I absolutely do not advocate for changing our shape to accommodate Kai at second striker…

Y I know, was saying how mad other people are, not yourself but I just couldn't be bothered discussing with some members

People pretend like we have Messi on our books and are trying to reshape things that are working well for us just so their boy could have a purpose

 

[SA Gunner]

What do we need him for exactly? Let's imagine we get that fancy new 8 who distributes the ball for fun, what's the purpose of Havertz then?

If we control games better next season with a stronger midfield, the only thing we would miss is for someone to share the burden of scoring goals with Saka, and Havertz is not that and never will be, which would hint at a new expensive LF.

Basically you are saying we need a top LCM and a top LF to accommodate Havertz in CF role, which is an absolute disaster all things considered

I dont want Trossard or Jesus operating in those zones either.

Bringing in a LCM who carries and distributes, not only frees Havertz, Trossard and Jesus from dropping into midfield to take part in build up play. But it also allows them to focus on making runs, and dragging players in the final third, and also have better service as well.

Havertz roles remain attacking space, being an aerial outlet, pressing high and dragging defensive lines. He serves that purpose in this team.

 

[db10_therza]

Y I know, was saying how mad other people are, not yourself but I just couldn't be bothered discussing with some members

People pretend like we have Messi on our books and are trying to reshape things that are working well for us just so their boy could have a purpose

Yeah for me it only makes sense to shake things up to “try and get the best out of a player” if said player has some truly world class attributes. Kai doesn’t. (Although I do think he is very good at certain things…)

This is different to say Declan Rice - where even his ardent haters here will readily admit that he is world class in elements of his game. So if you can find a way to shape the team that retains the world class bits and masks the average bits you do it and what you end up with is a team with world class attributes.

 

[Maybe]

Bringing in a LCM who carries and distributes, not only frees Havertz, Trossard and Jesus from dropping into midfield to take part in build up play. But it also allows them to focus on making runs in the final third, and also have better service as well.

Havertz roles remain attacking space, being an aerial outlet, pressing high and dragging defensive lines. He serves a purpose in this team.

It feels like you are happy to ignore our struggles vs Porto and Bayern just because you are a Havertz fan.

I don't think LCM is enough, it certainly helps but we miss badly some directness and dribbling skills and Havertz has none of those.

I'm a bit surprised how people still want more of those "working hard (Martinelli), making runs(Havertz)" players after we've failed miserably in Europe and got totally exposed, someone actually has to make things happen and it can't always be Saka

 

[SA Gunner]

It feels like you are happy to ignore our struggles vs Porto and Bayern just because you are a Havertz fan.

I don't think LCM is enough, it certainly helps but we miss badly some directness and dribbling skills and Havertz has none of those.

I'm a bit surprised how people still want more of those "working hard (Martinelli), making runs(Havertz)" players after we've failed miserably in Europe and got totally exposed, someone actually has to make things happen and it can't always be Saka

I’m not a Havertz fan, I’m an Arsenal fan.

And I agree with you, we need a dribbling winger, with pace that serves as both a technical forward with pace. Basically a faster version of Trossard.

Havertz is here, and if we don’t sell him we need to use him. Making the best of his qualities should he foremost in our minds, and that for me means be focuses on being a forward.

 

[Maybe]

I’m not a Havertz fan, I’m an Arsenal fan.

And I agree with you, we need a dribbling winger, with pace that serves as both a technical forward with pace. Basically a faster version of Trossard.

Havertz is here, and if we don’t sell him we need to use him. Making the best of his qualities should he foremost in our minds, and that for me means be focuses on being a forward.

I guess you've made your peace with it and accepted that it wasn't the greatest transfer but looking for ways to make it somewhat useful, something I really struggle with

 

[LookingForEric]

He definitely brings us some unique qualities up front. He’s a catalyst always looking to accelerate that can make things happen sometimes in not-obvious ways.

But also this is why he’s a really bad fit in midfield where players need to be able to affect tempo. At times you need to hold onto the ball and give another player time and a chance to make a run and unlock a position on the pitch. Kai’s whole game is built around being “that player”.



I think you’ve said this before as well that you envision him at the top of a diamond etc? It could work but not with Ødegaard as well as it leaves us too short in midfield as we’ve seen this season already. And you don’t drop Ødegaard for Kai…

We need 3 midfielders, OR we need change our shape completely and attack down the wings with overlapping fullbacks.

Ya at the start of the season with Timber and Partey we seemingly had possession/attacked with Kai at the tip of the diamond.

White - Saliba - Timber
Partey
Ødegaard - Rice
Havertz
Saka - Jesus - Martinelli

And then defending in a 442. Ødegaard just took up his normal role floating everywhere.

However things are multifunctional, Kai doesn’t have to start and we can also just utilise a flat 433 in some games.

 

[Gunner D]

Ya at the start of the season with Timber and Partey we seemingly had possession/attacked with Kai at the tip of the diamond.

White - Saliba - Timber
Partey
Ødegaard - Rice
Havertz
Saka - Jesus - Martinelli

And then defending in a 442. Ødegaard just took up his normal role floating everywhere.

However things are multifunctional, Kai doesn’t have to start and we can also just utilise a flat 433 in some games.

So we’re gonna break up the Gabriel/Saliba partnership again, just to fit Kai Havertz in as the point of the diamond?

Mate it’s just football. No need to over complicate things.

 

[db10_therza]

Mate it’s just football

Ok Ange

 

[RunTheTrap]

So we’re gonna break up the Gabriel/Saliba partnership again, just to fit Kai Havertz in as the point of the diamond?

Mate it’s just football. No need to over complicate things.

It's crazy how people want to bench our potential POTS for Havertz. It's even crazier when people think Timber can slot into the defence after suffering from an ACL.

 

[<<reed>>]

So we’re gonna break up the Gabriel/Saliba partnership again, just to fit Kai Havertz in as the point of the diamond?

Mate it’s just football. No need to over complicate things.

The summer transfer window can't come soon enough.
Arteta is gonna buy a new shining starting striker/midfielder worthy of Arsenal Football Club, and the usual suspects will finally stop pretending he isn't a massive bum.

 

[LookingForEric]

So we’re gonna break up the Gabriel/Saliba partnership again, just to fit Kai Havertz in as the point of the diamond?

Mate it’s just football. No need to over complicate things.

Who said that? I’m saying what we saw at the start of the season.

You could comfortably utilise that system with Gabriel in the side as well.

 

[Gunner D]

Who said that? I’m saying what we saw at the start of the season.

You could comfortably utilise that system with Gabriel in the side as well.

What we saw at the beginning of the season was rubbish.

I’d rather we just kept it simple and play players in their actual positions. Partey at RB, or any other midfielder at fullback, just to fit Havertz in midfield is just galaxy brain nonsense.

 

[db10_therza]

What we saw at the beginning of the season was rubbish.

I’d rather we just kept it simple and play players in their actual positions. Partey at RB, or any other midfielder at fullback, just to fit Havertz in midfield is just galaxy brain nonsense.

So I agree that experiment specifically just didn’t work. But I’m happy with experiments, in general, especially at the start of the season.

You have to evolve to keep things fresh. Some mutations are just cancer tho…

 

[LookingForEric]

What we saw at the beginning of the season was rubbish.

I’d rather we just kept it simple and play players in their actual positions. Partey at RB, or any other midfielder at fullback, just to fit Havertz in midfield is just galaxy brain nonsense.

You’d rather keep it simple and not win anything, gotta do something different to topple this City side my friend.

 

[RunTheTrap]

You’d rather keep it simple and not win anything, gotta do something different to topple this City side my friend.

Not really. Man City traded in inverted fullbacks for proper defenders. Pep stopped the false 9 nonsense and signed a 50-goal striker. Pep stopped the dual ten midfield and utilised a Gundogan-Rodri-KdB midfield. Essentially, City went back to basics and won his first CL since leaving Barca. He led City to their first ever treble.

Why do you have to overcomplicate things to beat City? Even Pep realised that galaxy-brain nonsense wasn't going to take him far. I wish Arteta would take a leaf out of Pep's book.

 

[TromsoGooner]

Whether you rate him highly or not,he is physically very impressive. Ødegaard, Rice and Saka are starting to look tired and this guy has played a lot of football too, usually starts for Germany as well. Covers a lot of ground and competes in a lot of duels every game but doesn`t look tired at all all I thinkk.

 

[PrinzPoldi]

Not really. Man City traded in inverted fullbacks for proper defenders. Pep stopped the false 9 nonsense and signed a 50-goal striker. Pep stopped the dual ten midfield and utilised a Gundogan-Rodri-KdB midfield. Essentially, City went back to basics and won his first CL since leaving Barca. He led City to their first ever treble.

Why do you have to overcomplicate things to beat City? Even Pep realised that galaxy-brain nonsense wasn't going to take him far. I wish Arteta would take a leaf out of Pep's book.

I know I exaggerated, but Emery could have won something with this City team.

In the end, it is about what kind of players you have in hand.

Pep had huge success in PL with his tweaked formation, he had success with Bayern and he was a legend at Barca. A lot of his success was built on his revolutionary ideas and tactics; and I do not think winning one CL (with a more traditional formation) means what he did was wrong or inappropriate.

Anyway, they just got booted in the CL by Real, does that mean anything regarding his traditional formation?

 

[LookingForEric]

Not really. Man City traded in inverted fullbacks for proper defenders. Pep stopped the false 9 nonsense and signed a 50-goal striker. Pep stopped the dual ten midfield and utilised a Gundogan-Rodri-KdB midfield. Essentially, City went back to basics and won his first CL since leaving Barca. He led City to their first ever treble.

Why do you have to overcomplicate things to beat City? Even Pep realised that galaxy-brain nonsense wasn't going to take him far. I wish Arteta would take a leaf out of Pep's book.

Ahh yes that’s why they play with 4 CB’s regularly.

Come on man.