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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

AberGooner

Established Member
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Country: Scotland

Player:Gabriel
If we were more defensively solid over the years we would've won a lot more obviously so I can understand Arteta's approach with what we were like before he came in.
Of course it doesn't help when you see sides such as Villa and Everton smashing goals in with us being so conservative but on the other hand a lot of teams are leaking goals for fun.
If we were still playing in this way into next season then obviously there would be room to panic but let's see how we are nearer the new year. We're not far of the top sides in the table at present with arguably the 2 worst away fixtures out the way and not been totally embarrassed either.
You never know the way the season is going we might be in with a great chance if this is to be a similar season to the Leicester league winning year.
 

Penn_

Established Member
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My concern with the defence is are we solid because we’re becoming a good unit as a team or does it weigh more heavily on the three at the back?
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
People keeping saying Arteta played so many games against the top 6, but you always play around one third of the games against top 6.

20 teams in the competition, 19 without Arsenal. Makes you play 31,5 procent against the top 6. And the further you get in the cup competitions, the more you play against the top 6 because that’s were we want to be.

Playing one third of the games against strong teams isn’t a very good argument. We should be top 6, other teams should say that Arsenal is strong and that they are happy they played Arsenal already. Small club mentality.
Of course by the end of the season everyone faces the top 6 don't be silly.

Look at our fixtures since project restart, include FA Cup, Community shield (friendly), Carabao cup and the start of this season.

Look at the amount of times Liverpool and City in particular has been involved. Chelsea twice in that time as well, Man Utd too and our win ratio is still respectable. That surely has to be taken into account? There's no real reason for the doom and gloom just yet.

I really wonder with our fans sometimes.
 

truth_hurts

but Holding’s hair transplant was painless
I
My concern with the defence is are we solid because we’re becoming a good unit as a team or does it weigh more heavily on the three at the back?

I think 3 at the back and having midfielders who don't take risks. We've sacrificed our attack in order to defend better.
 

AmsterdamGunner

Active Member
Of course by the end of the season everyone faces the top 6 don't be silly.

Look at our fixtures since project restart, include FA Cup, Community shield (friendly), Carabao cup and the start of this season.

Look at the amount of times Liverpool and City in particular has been involved. Chelsea twice in that time as well, Man Utd too and our win ratio is still respectable. That surely has to be taken into account? There's no real reason for the doom and gloom just yet.

I really wonder with our fans sometimes.

I agree there’s no real reason for doom and gloom, i’m just saying that it isn’t a very good argument to keep saying we played one third to the top six. That’s where we want to be and you always play one third to the top six. Maybe even more if you do well in the cup competitions because the further you get the higher the chance of a top 6 team. The end of last season and beginning of this season we had a lot of Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. But after the restart last season we also played Brighton, Southampton, Norwich, Wolves, Aston Villa, Watford and Sheffield United. And this season we also played Fulham, West Ham and Sheffield.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
Let’s address those squad issues. Firstly Wenger left a team that had :
29 year old Mhiki, Özil,
28 year old Auba
27 year old Laca,
26 Xhaka and Ramsey, Wilshere, Mustafi,
25 yr ol Kolasinac
23 Bellerin,
Many other youngsters as well. I would hardly call that an old team.

As for the quality of those acquisitions, you will agree it is a mixed bag. Aubameyang has been excellent, Lacazette was very good for a year but has fallen out of form. Xhaka is Xhaka. No way to describe his immense ability to mess things up yet still offer something intangible to the team (leadership they say). El Neny has been solid but not spectacular. Mhiki left shortly after Wenger but that was down to Emery. The same can be said of Ramsey, Wilshere, Cazorla.

The squad has issues but it’s hardly down to Wenger that we don’t have a midfield capable of controlling a game when Emery got rid of Mhiki, Ramsey, Wilshere, Cazorla, Iwobi, Jeff, and now Arteta has no use for Özil. Yet Wenger is to blame? I am not buying that. Did Wenger’s team have faults? Yes. Defensively they were very soft but that’s the only accusation you can seriously level at his teams. His teams were fine in midfield (with the exception of a player like Partey, Fernandinho or Fabinho who we needed ) and in attack it was dangerous.

Did the club make some questionable decisions in regards to Mhiki and Özil. Yes. But I’m not sure who was responsible for that mess.

What is interesting is that Wenger has said he’s surprised the club magically found money to buy Players after he left. Which suggests that he was operating under a different dynamic under Gazidis. perhaps he was unable to get the players he really wanted and was stuck with going for second rate players like Mustafi and Xhaka because he didn’t have the funds he needed to get who he wanted. I don’t know.

Here is what I do know, that Arteta is now in charge and he’s the one now responsible for moving us forward. What happens now is his responsibility. You can’t give him the plaudits when things are going well and blame others when they are not.

Forgot about Bellerín, he should be included. Should also include Iwobi (though probably worth mentioning in the same breath the failures in developing the potential/assets of Gnabry, Jeff, and Malen during this period), who netted us significant money.

Point still stands though, squad building and recruitment was hugely deficient in these years and while, like I said, I'll always blame Gazidis more (he's also responsible for not sacking Wenger sooner-- no way he should've been allowed to continue past 15/16 when it was clear as day he was past it as a manager at the top level), Wenger certainly deserves an important share of the blame.

Other than perhaps Barça it's hard to think of a top club that had as bad of a squad planning and recruitment policy in these years.

It would be really hard to argue this point, IMO.
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
Forgot about Bellerín, he should be included. Should also include Iwobi (though probably worth mentioning in the same breath the failures in developing the potential/assets of Gnabry, Jeff, and Malen during this period), who netted us significant money.

Point still stands though, squad building and recruitment was hugely deficient in these years and while, like I said, I'll always blame Gazidis more (he's also responsible for not sacking Wenger sooner-- no way he should've been allowed to continue past 15/16 when it was clear as day he was past it as a manager at the top level), Wenger certainly deserves an important share of the blame.



It would be really hard to argue this point, IMO.

What? That season Wenger led us to second with all those injuries
 

Jasard

Forum Issue Troubleshooter
Moderator

Country: England
A Palace fan I work with calls Arteta ‘The Spanish Roy Hodgson’. :lol:

woyteta.gif
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
What? That season Wenger led us to second with all those injuries

72 pts in a Premier League that weak, with that squad, including Özil at the top of his game, closest to his 10-12 Madrid levels, was not acceptable. Aside, it was clear to see that tactically at the top level he was out of his depth.
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
72 pts in a Premier League that weak, with that squad, including Özil at the top of his game, closest to his 10-12 Madrid levels, was not acceptable. Aside, it was clear to see that tactically at the top level he was out of his depth.

Yes, but a lot of our best players were injured throughout that season and thus we never created cohesiveness as a team; it's not all about Özil or a single player. Being balanced, I'll admit Wenger was a little tactically naive at the time but every squad would struggle with 7-8 key squad players out for three + months
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
Yes, but a lot of our best players were injured throughout that season and thus we never created cohesiveness as a team; it's not all about Özil or a single player. Being balanced, I'll admit Wenger was a little tactically naive at the time but every squad would struggle with 7-8 key squad players out for three + months

Sure, but injuries and Wenger are not totally separate issues anyways, that's clear. The constant issues we had with injuries throughout the final decade of Wenger's reign clearly had something to do with a deficient and not updated approach to training, sports science, physical discipline, etc.

That said, that was a team begging for SOME kind of structure in build-up; it was absolutely desperate watching that team, especially the midfield play with Flamini and Ramsey, with Ramsey in wild west mode and just playing shockingly. A top manager would've sorted those problems out better and found effective solutions, instead we got a Ramsey who looked as bad as Flamini (which is saying a lot), and a midfield that looking like a championship sides in terms of coherence and tactical sense.

I'm cringing right now as I write this, thinking of the difference between the coherent, structured build-up and instruction Arteta gives to his midfield (whether the ultimate result atm is your cup of tea or not), and that. My word that was painful and it is a breath of fresh air to finally see a team who has structure, instruction, and coherence in build-up, even if none of us are a fan of watching football this conservative, me last.
 

EmeryCouldnt

Established Member
:lol::lol::lol::lol: Top 4 is not a trophy, we're the mighty Arsenal and should be challenging for the league title.

Looks like you’re going to be a disappointed fan for the next few years if that’s the only thing that’ll make you happy. We haven’t challenged for the title since 2015. I’ll take year over year improvement.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
Looks like you’re going to be a disappointed fan for the next few years if that’s the only thing that’ll make you happy. We haven’t challenged for the title since 2015. I’ll take year over year improvement.
The Premier League is really separating itself from the pack as the top league in the world now, too, so top 4 becomes a better achievement each year that passes. When the competition was Redknapp's Tottenham or Aston Villa it was fair to play down a bit that achievement, but not now, when you have very strong United and Tottenham squads to compete with along with a few clubs (Everton, Wolves, Leicester) that would be top 4 in the second best league in the world (la liga).
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
Sure, but injuries and Wenger are not totally separate issues anyways, that's clear. The constant issues we had with injuries throughout the final decade of Wenger's reign clearly had something to do with a deficient and not updated approach to training, sports science, physical discipline, etc.

That said, that was a team begging for SOME kind of structure in build-up; it was absolutely desperate watching that team, especially the midfield play with Flamini and Ramsey, with Ramsey in wild west mode and just playing shockingly. A top manager would've sorted those problems out better and found effective solutions, instead we got a Ramsey who looked as bad as Flamini (which is saying a lot), and a midfield that looking like a championship sides in terms of coherence and tactical sense.

There were multiple issues with injuries during Wenger's reign. However the period between 2013-2016 was the worse because we had 6-8 guys out simultaneously for consecutive months. In 2014/15 there was a period when Koscielny, Giroud, Özil, Walcott, Debuchy, Rosicky, Arteta, Ramsey, Welbeck and Gnabry were all out injured together for a month. Now I'm sorry, but if Chelsea had so many injuries they wouldn't have won the league that year.
Before 2013 there were undoubtedly injury problems but it was usually to one key player like Van Persie, Diaby or Rosicky which hindered the teams ability to challenge at the time but nothing like 2015 where numerous players were injured together for a long stretch.

I agree with you slightly on the tactics; Ramsey was very inconsistent back then not carrying out his defensive duties or helping to control the midfield which was always going to be a struggle with extensive injuries to Cazorla, Wilshere and Arteta. When we signed Elneny and Coquelin returned from his two month injury those two formed a good partnership with Özil, Alexis and Iwobi ahead of them in a 4231 formation which yielded a more balanced team but it just weren't enough in the end.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
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Country: England

Player:Saliba
72 pts in a Premier League that weak, with that squad, including Özil at the top of his game, closest to his 10-12 Madrid levels, was not acceptable. Aside, it was clear to see that tactically at the top level he was out of his depth.
Out of his depth? This is just nonsense that keeps getting blindly repeated.
1.We had the most injuries in the league that year, yet we still beat all 4 of the teams that out spent us
2. We beat Leicester home and away, it was the other supposed top 6 sides that capitulated against them and gave them the title.
3. Wenger's tactics produced the side with the best defensive stats and the most clean sheets
4. Wenger's tactics produced one of the highest Xg stats over 38 matches. The team was clearly creating chances but a protracted barren spell from Giroud after Xmas where he failed to convert some fairly easy chances cost us those extra points. That's just football mate.
 

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