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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

Kav

Established Member
I think the manager people should be comparing Arteta to, at the moment, is Pochettino at Sp**s (ignoring that Arteta has actually won trophies already).

Potch went to Sp**s and immediately imposed a rigid structure on a shaky Sp**s team. It was clear how he wanted Sp**s to play (with structured buildup and pressing), but the early results weren't impressive. Sp**s looked too structured, were lacking creativity and seemed incapable of scoring goals. In his first season, they finished seventh with 64 points - a decline on the previous years' performance.

There were however some positive signs of Sp**s becoming a more competitive outfit, particularly in the big games. Sp**s were routinely thumped by their rivals before Potch arrived (sound familiar?). However, despite finishing with fewer points overall, Potch's Sp**s took more points off their big-6 rivals, and (while still losing more than they won) those losses were becoming much closer. Sp**s GD vs. the top 6 went from -24 the season before Potch arrived, to -11 in his first season.

A bigger improvement was noticeable in Potch's second season. They still weren't scoring much, but they were becoming a very difficult team to play against. Their GD improved by about 30 (mostly thanks to their defence) and - while slipping up too often against the weaker sides - they were now holding their own against the big 6, winning more than they lost and finishing with a +6 GD against their rivals. People were now starting to respect Sp**s as a very difficult team to play against: no longer a "soft touch". However, the classic refrain was that Sp**s would never score enough under Potch to compete at the top level.

Then, in his third season - and apparently out of nowhere - Potch's attack exploded. Sp**s finished with 86 points and were the top scorers in the league. Their defence also continued its year-on-year improvement. This wasn't due to any new signings (Sp**s that summer bought Victor Janssen and Moussa Sissoko); rather, the structure that Potch had been working on for the previous two seasons finally 'clicked'.

Now I'm not saying that Arteta is necessarily on the same trajectory here. However, I do think it's worth highlighting that there are a lot of similarities. Arteta also wants his team to play in a very structured manner, and (while the attack looks dreadful) it's clear to me that we've improved massively as a defensive unit, and are much more competitive vs. our rivals. In fact, if we are on the same trajectory as Sp**s under Potch, it looks like we're progressing a lot quicker than they did (especially on that trophy front). Bottom line is that I think people should be patient with the attack. Arteta's is trying to instil a new structured way of playing, which will always benefit the defence more quickly than the offence (which thrives on fluidity). Over time, those structures and patterns of play will hopefully become second-nature.

Essay over.

He can’t coach an attack. He tries to micromanage everything which results in players being inhibited on the pitch. Attacking does not require structure it requires fluidity and movements, intelligence, Skill. The structure that Arteta is implementing is only useful defensively.

Arteta is coaching shape and positioning into players. These inhibit the players natural instincts for movement and dynamism as they try to stay in and play only in zones that he’s established on the pitch. There is very little evidence that he can coach an attacking style of play.

However as you said he may get it right eventually. My Concern is that we do not have the luxury of time like Sp**s did to wait on pochettino to get it right. They were coming from mediocrity and could wait. We are coming from the echelons of football and apparently need to get back there as quickly as possible for financial reasons.
 

say yes

forum master baiter
He can’t coach an attack. He tries to micromanage everything which results in players being inhibited on the pitch. Attacking does not require structure it requires fluidity and movements, intelligence, Skill. The structure that Arteta is implementing is only useful defensively.

Arteta is coaching shape and positioning into players. These inhibit the players natural instincts for movement and dynamism as they try to stay in and play only in zones that he’s established on the pitch. There is very little evidence that he can coach an attacking style of play.

However as you said he may get it right eventually. My Concern is that we do not have the luxury of time like Sp**s did to wait on pochettino to get it right. They were coming from mediocrity and could wait. We are coming from the echelons of football and apparently need to get back there as quickly as possible for financial reasons.

That is not the dominant view today. Following Guardiola's success at Barcelona (Pep is about as structured as its possible to be), the majority of top coaches have adopted at least some elements of his 'positional-play' philosophy (which he developed from guys like Van Gaal, Cruyff and Michels). And Arteta is a Pep disciple.

E.g. both CL finalists from last season (Tuchel and Flick) had highly structured attacks, as have all the recent PL winners (Pep, Klopp and Conte). Like it or not, that's how modern teams play.
 

HairSprayGooners

My brother posted it ⏩
To be honest for this season I couldn't care less how we play football. I want us to get back into the CL. If that means nicking 1-0 wins everywhere and sometimes losing then so be it. If that means finishing 7th in the league but winning the Europa league then so be it.

Whatever way we go CL footy is the next step to push further as a club.
 

Kysus

Active Member
E.g. both CL finalists from last season (Tuchel and Flick) had highly structured attacks,

I'm just imagining structured Neymar without freedom to roam just hugging the touchline. Pretty sure he would just fall down and die, too much of a shock for his body&mind.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
That is not the dominant view today. Following Guardiola's success at Barcelona (Pep is about as structured as its possible to be), the majority of top coaches have adopted at least some elements of his 'positional-play' philosophy (which he developed from guys like Van Gaal, Cruyff and Michels). And Arteta is a Pep disciple.

E.g. both CL finalists from last season (Tuchel and Flick) had highly structured attacks, as have all the recent PL winners (Pep, Klopp and Conte). Like it or not, that's how modern teams play.
100% correct.
 

BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
Regardless of anything else he simply has to start winning games in the coming weeks. I mean there's not really much else to say other than that. Attractive football would be nice but we're not just gonna go from how were playing now to playing like 10/11 Arsenal. Results is the most important thing for the immediate future.

I genuinely don't care about playing attractive football if we win, nothing more entertaining than a W. But Arteta is doing neither.
 

Atlas

Lost a sausage bet on Xhaka 😭
I’m all for giving him more time but 1 win and 1 draw in 6 games coupled with some of the worst football I’ve ever seen us play and no goals from open play in 7 hours of football deserves some criticism. Not all early manager struggles are equal this is especially poor.
 

krengon

One Arsène Wenger
Trusted ⭐
Even someone as structured as Pep gives his players freedom in the final third to find solutions themselves..

There is scope for improvisation, however. Once in the final third, Guardiola’s players are allowed total freedom to move as they see fit to score. Messi could seek space. Ditto Thomas Muller, that ‘space investigator’, or Robert Lewandowski. Henry added: “He used to say: ‘My job is to bring you to the last third; your job is to finish it’. The last third was freedom for us.

Henry said: "For him, winning is a consequence of playing well with the ball on the ground, respecting his plan, staying in position and always keeping possession.

"He puts everything in place to get the ball up to the final third of the pitch and then trusts his team to finish the job in the only area of the field that can’t be planned for."
 

HairSprayGooners

My brother posted it ⏩
Even someone as structured as Pep gives his players freedom in the final third to find solutions themselves..

What on earth are you on about?

Go tell Auba to do what he wants in the final third, you think he's gonna slip in a 10/10 pass or beat 2 players and score? Nope, he isn't that sort of player.

Go tell Pepe to do what he wants and he headbutts someone and gets sent off, he's inconsistent.

Go tell Laca to do what he wants and he'll fall over the ball or stick his arse into the defender

None of our main attackers have the ability of someone like Grealish/Bruno etc etc, proper playmakers.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
What on earth are you on about?

Go tell Auba to do what he wants in the final third, you think he's gonna slip in a 10/10 pass or beat 2 players and score? Nope, he isn't that sort of player.

Go tell Pepe to do what he wants and he headbutts someone and gets sent off, he's inconsistent.

Go tell Laca to do what he wants and he'll fall over the ball or stick his arse into the defender

None of our main attackers have the ability of someone like Grealish/Bruno etc etc, proper playmakers.
Exactly.
We have shxt players like laca/auba/nketiah/willock.....who can’t do much on the ball, even if you give them 100% freedom.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
I honestly think some fans expected Arteta to come in and immediately show the tactical nous of Pep Guardiola and the man management skills of Alex Ferguson.

The expectations from the fanbase towards Arteta were set way too high and the scale of the task in hand was underestimated in my opinion, I think we're seeing that now.

I'm not saying that Arteta hasn't made any mistakes or there's aren't legitimate criticisms of his style of play but he gives every impression that he's an intelligent guy who with self analyse and learn from his mistakes. He's been a manager for under 1 year don't forget. We signed him as a rookie manager, we can't turn around and criticise him for it. We knew that one of the weaknesses he had was a lack of experience.

During the last few years of Wengers reign and Emery's tenure fans were crying out for defensive stability and a more disciplinarian style of management. We've got that now.

You've got to look at the disciplinarian aspect in context too. Arteta's not trying to be some dictatorial presence. It's his first managerial job ever, he's got to lay down some markers to the squad from the outset about what he expects from them otherwise he'll get walked over like Emery did. He's not Arteta the ex Arsenal player anymore, or Arteta the assistant to Pep. He needs his squad to know that he's the boss and he's in charge even if it ruffles a few feathers.

I really think Arteta's got the base pretty much sorted and there's a core of players he really rates and wants to build the team around. Creativity and final third play in general are what really needs to be addressed next, because that aspect of our game clearly isn't up to standard currently and yeah it's up to Arteta to do that.
 
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Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
I honestly think some fans expected Arteta to come in and immediately show the tactical nous of Pep Guardiola and the man management skills of Alex Ferguson.
Not at all. Don't see that anywhere on the forum actually, despite all the nutters on here.

There is no excuse for that formation and approach against Aston Villa and others at home, that is all.

If you want to go deeper, the authority inconsistency issues and team selections are a cause for concern as well. Not quite Arteta out territory but certainly eyebrow raising.

Some of the things Emery got killed for Arteta has gotten away with scot-free from the fans (on here) as well.

I'm not even going to mention Saliba and Özil as it's not clear what's happened there but for Özil either of the outcomes are quite damning.

Arteta is either a corn shield for the board or he's made a horrendous footballing decision.

But hey feel free to blame the squad and Arsenal-mania.
 

krengon

One Arsène Wenger
Trusted ⭐
What on earth are you on about?
.

i was agreeing with this:

Attacking does not require structure it requires fluidity and movements, intelligence, Skill. The structure that Arteta is implementing is only useful defensively.

Which is 100% spot on...

Rest of your post doesn't even warrant a response as it's clear you have no idea what freedom means in this context.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
Not at all. Don't see that anywhere on the forum actually, despite all the nutters on here.

There is no excuse for that formation and approach against Aston Villa and others at home, that is all.

If you want to go deeper, the authority inconsistency issues and team selections are a cause for concern as well. Not quite Arteta out territory but certainly eyebrow raising.

Some of the things Emery got killed for Arteta has gotten away with scot-free from the fans (on here) as well.

I'm not even going to mention Saliba and Özil as it's not clear what's happened there but for Özil either of the outcomes are quite damning.

Arteta is either a corn shield for the board or he's made a horrendous footballing decision.

But hey feel free to blame the squad and Arsenal-mania.

It's easy to be an armchair pundit in hindsight and I'm as guilty as anyone else of it. Sure Arteta got it tactically wrong against Villa, no denying that. It happens, and it's cool to be critical of Arteta there. But if people want to batter him for that you have to give him credit for the tactical masterclass he put on against Man Utd a week or so before.

I'm not denying that Arteta had good will from most Arsenal fans at least initially, though it would be hard to argue he does now. He was a well liked player here, it's natural.

It always has to come back to Özil somehow :lol: You've just admitted you don't know what happened with Özil but apparently it's damning to Arteta irrespective. That's not fair, you have to be at least open to the possibility that Özil wasn't training well enough or didn't have a good enough attitude for Arteta to think he warranted a place in the squad. You may not think it's true, but it's a possibility.

From what I understand Saliba has had a family bereavement and there are personal issues around that. I think there are extenuating circumstances here and it's unfair to judge either Saliba or Arteta on him not being in the squad currently.

I'm not blaming Arsenal fans for making legitimate criticisms of Arteta, they are there to make. It's when it starts becoming a pile on and fans just go out their way to concoct reasons to have a go that I don't like. The reaction to Arteta being critical about Pepe head butting someone, for example. That's manufactured outrage. So is calling Arteta a stooge of the board. There's no evidence of that. Arteta has been much more outspoken and put more pressure on the board in the media than Wenger ever did when it comes to transfers etc. He's no yes man, whatever else you may think of him as a manager.
 
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BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
I honestly think some fans expected Arteta to come in and immediately show the tactical nous of Pep Guardiola and the man management skills of Alex Ferguson.

The expectations from the fanbase towards Arteta were set way too high and the scale of the task in hand was underestimated in my opinion, I think we're seeing that now.

It's obvious to anyone that Arteta is an amateur and a job like Arsenal is way over his level. We're trying to get back in the CL not a fcking tutorial for a new manager wtf.
 

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