Hleb-In-The-Hole Discussion Thread

[sabret00the]

I know we have a Hleb thread, but i wanted a thread dedicated to this little formation, experimentation.

In my opinion, it's both negative and unproductive. thus far we've wasted two games where van Persie/Dudu could've learned to play together and cause problems. In my opinion these two players are made for each other. Both like to cross, both like to get on the end of crosses/cut backs. Both know where the net is. Why are we playing 4-5-1 with Hleb pretending to be Bergkamp? I love Hleb and i love the way he plays. I know where he's most comfortable but with a dedicated winger he could be given a free role to float in the line between midfield and attack (given that he was actually deployed at a winger first and foremost) and thus cause problems.

I'm watching this experiment by Wenger and i'm just left wondering why in frustration. It embodies everything i hate about Wenger's selection policy; aesthetics over end product. Wenger will always laud overtly abundant passing and tenacity over ability and it's a shame. Don't get me wrong, we all know that Wengers analytical when it comes to technical nuance but yet his economics degree seems to always come into play at the most opportune of moments. i.e. play Hleb in the hole. Ignore Eboue's road to mental fitness at a right back and play Rosicky who have the footballing brain of a moth around a camp fire.

Someone mentioned how Kanu learned to header the ball with Pompey, and inferred that it's because we don't practice crosses and i think that's spot on. The success rate of a cross will predominantly always be in favour of the opposition given that their numbers are most likely to outweigh that of your team at that given number and place on the pitch. However the fact that seems to be ignored is that if you're a good crosser, the odds rise to around even in regards to success rate.

For all of Clichy's and Eboue's speed, neither have a clue in regards to how to pick out a man. In fact neither even knows how to play a percentage ball into the box. It's saddening because both are good full backs but that's it. they need a hand in order to get the most out of them and that's what i'd equate/metaphorically compare with Cole's Pires. Cole excelled at link up, short passes but was utter tripe when it came to doing more (with the ball) i.e. crosses/shots.

I query the motives behind this Hleb in the hole idea like i query Wenger's sanity for allowing Toure to take pot-shot free kicks; "where will it go, that's anybody's guess, but it's roughly thataway"

I know people are citing injuries as to why we're experimenting with these formations, but negative football is negative football, why are we so happy to be hypocrites because we look good moving the ball around hoping for the best,, maybe? if we're so thing that we need to change formation (and play, players out of position) given one or two injuries, surely that says we're light.

I personally don't see the merit in this formation. It seems to do the world of good for Hleb, as his doubters are now forced to see the dynamo of his game, but bar that? the same old toothless attack and even worst it puts for much more pressure on van Persie to product the goods, because quite honestly there's no where else for the goals to come from.

I dare say it's actually counter-productive. Somewhat akin to our make shift wingers.

 

[longrufus]

Dont like the formation at all to be honest, Hleb tends to drop too deep (instead of playing in the hole he plays further back almost as another midfielder) which isolates RvP. Which makes it easier for teams to defend against him.

It could work if the wide players got foward a lot more, but then its more of a 433 with Hleb in the middle as opposed to him playing in the hole so to speak.

Even if Hleb were to occupy a better position, the wide players we have arnt really goalscorers, and neither is Hleb, so we are seemingly reducing the goal threat in our team instead of strengthening it.

The optimist in me is hoping that Hleb is only playing there so that Eboue can get a few games at RM, which in turn gives Sagna games at RB.

 

[Artillero]

I have no idea what formation Wenger is going to play this season. The 442 seems a bit makeshift in wide areas seeming Arsène has had all summer to alter.

Not a huge fan of Hleb and Rosisky in the same squad when both just play average out of position.

Our wide players seem to be Hleb, Rosisky, Walcott, Eboue or Diaby when playing 442 and to be frank none of them shine most playing out of position.

Hleb will do my head in playing up front when he refuses to shoot unless forced to. I do like him in the center further back though (its not that i just dislike Hleb).

 

[>YounGunner<]

Pretty much spot on. Hleb looked very good in the hole, was confidant and it looks like a postion he loves. However it would decrease our options upfront.

Say Van Persie drifts wide and decides to cross a ball who will be in the box? Fabregas? Hleb? I doubt it. When we are playing with two strikers Adebayor or Eduaro will be avaliable when Persie drifts wide Vice versa.

I would prefer if we played Hleb on the left. He would be able to drift inside easily with his right foot. He also seems more direct when ever i seem him there.

Overrall i would switch Hleb to the left, play Eduardo along side Robin and Buy a Winger.

 

[Rocafella]

I'd agree with what you've said Sabre. I think Hleb still tended to drift in and out of the game a bit playing in the hole. I think it's a waste of another striking option.

I think if you're going to play somebody there, they have to be willing to have a shot on goal when the opportunity arises, and I don't think Hleb will ever develop that willingness to shoot properly.

I think Wenger was thinking where to play Hleb to get the best out of his skillset.

Hleb doesn't cross or put balls in to the box and he doesn't stay wide trying to beat men on the outside so maybe Wenger thought he would accomplish more in the hole if given a chance.

I think it was only an experiment and I don't think Wenger intends to use it once the league's underway, however if he were to, I think we'd struggle personally.

 

[Goalkeeper]

I don't think Hleb is an "in-the-hole" player in the traditional sense, so it would be wrong to play him like one. I think we would fit perfectly at the top of a 4-4-2 diamond. In such a fashion Eduardo and Van Persie can partner each other while Hleb is involved with everybody. It leaves us a bit narrow, but that is what our fullbacks are for.

 

[longrufus]

Rosicky for me would be a far better option in that position

 

[JGooner]

Yup, I'd much prefer Rosicky in the hole. Far more prolific - you can't have a second striker as goal-shy has Hleb. Rosicky has a sick shot from the 25-yard range where second strikers spend most of their time, and he is also better at getting on the end of crosses into the box, as he showed towards the end of last season. He is also sparkier and more mobile than Hleb.

 

[sabret00the]

Rosicky for me would be a far better option in that position

why so he can 'shoot' upon almost seeing the goal more? i mean yeah it'd paper over the cracks regarding his ill-discipline and <repeat of joke from initial post at rosicky's expense> but yeah, you're right. **** got distracted, you're incredibly wrong, it's a very very very bad idea.

 

[14teranga]

This formation will turn to be a master stroke in big big games but I can not see us using it week in week out. This is a formation that will give us all the must win games. It will make the opposition run their lungs off after the ball we will keep, it will give us a lot of dangerous set pieces and it does make us stronger defensively. I am sure we will never use it in a home game against Derby but for a CL knock out away game or a visit to Anfield, Bridge or Old Trafford this is a formation that will will do the trick.

 

[Lancelot]

I think the 4-5-1formation with Hleb (or any other good candidate) in the hole could give us the tactical flexibility we need and could be quite useful in certain odd games along the season especially those away nights in the UCL. We were there at the very top of the domestic league not so long ago doing something that a lot of teams can only dream of, and yet, the glamor 4-4-2 formation with the grandest of players failed to get us beyond the quarter-final round in Europe's most prestigious event.

On the contrary, that not-so-pretty 4-5-1 formation took us through a very tough opposition like Real Madrid and went on to reach the final of the UCL later that year. Although it didn't prove anything much since you can always argue that if we were to have the perfect personnel playing with our trademark 4-4-2 formation, we might as well beat Real that night.

I'm not here to represent the 4-5-1 formation but rather that we should consider ourself as a bit rigid with our tactics in the past and we should be learning from our previous mistakes instead of being persistent with the search for perfection with the 4-4-2 formation.

I love the 4-4-2 formation; it's practically our own bread and butter, yet, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should completely dismiss the alternative idea of the 4-5-1 formation as you need to be adaptable to various types of opponents nowadays to be successful and win trophy.

 

[sabret00the]

This formation will turn to be a master stroke in big big games but I can not see us using it week in week out. This is a formation that will give us all the must win games. It will make the opposition run their lungs off after the ball we will keep, it will give us a lot of dangerous set pieces and it does make us stronger defensively. I am sure we will never use it in a home game against Derby but for a CL knock out away game or a visit to Anfield, Bridge or Old Trafford this is a formation that will will do the trick.

Stronger defensively? Instead of papering over the cracks, why don't we just fix the blasted wall and use a defensive partnership that actually works?

As for how this formation is going to gift us must win games when it's so heavily reliant on moments of magic and in fact we've looked better after Wenger has gone back to a 4-4-2 every time, is beyond me.

Then again, let's not let small things like facts get in the way of the discussion.

 

[longrufus]

How can i be incredibly wrong, its an opinion?

I believe he has more of the qualities to be succesful there than Hleb does. Has better movement, will actually shoot and is a far better finisher. I dont believe for a second that Rosicky simply shoots on sight, thats nonsense.

As i said in my previous post, playing a creative player in the hole weakens us a goal threat. Our midfield now, is made up of creative players, none of which will score that many. For the player in the hole to work ala Bergkamp you need players who can make dangerous runs and have the capacity to score goals (at the time we had Henry, Pires and Freddie). At present we dont have players from wide who really offer us this. So there is no point in playing a creative player in the hole as they have no players to feed so to speak.

To be honest i'd rather neither played there, and actually have 2 people up top who can score goals. Two from RvP, Ade, Edu, Walcott and Bendtner would do just fine.

 

[sabret00the]

I think the 4-5-1formation with Hleb (or any other good candidate) in the hole could give us the tactical flexibility we need and could be quite useful in certain odd games along the season especially those away nights in the UCL. We were there at the very top of the domestic league not so long ago doing something that a lot of teams can only dream of, and yet, the glamor 4-4-2 formation with the grandest of players failed to get us beyond the quarter-final round in Europe's most prestigious event.

On the contrary, that not-so-pretty 4-5-1 formation took us through a very tough opposition like Real Madrid and went on to reach the final of the UCL later that year. Although it didn't prove anything much since you can always argue that if we were to have the perfect personnel playing with our trademark 4-4-2 formation, we might as well beat Real that night.

I'm not here to represent the 4-5-1 formation but rather that we should consider ourself as a bit rigid with our tactics in the past and we should be learning from our previous mistakes instead of being persistent with the search for perfection with the 4-4-2 formation.

I love the 4-4-2 formation; it's practically our own bread and butter, yet, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should completely dismiss the alternative idea of the 4-5-1 formation as you need to be adaptable to various types of opponents nowadays to be successful and win trophy.

if i had more than four hours sleep over this weekend i would pull out photoshop and attempt to amuse everyone with a mock example of thread 'reading' on Arsenal-Mania. However i did only have four hours.

4-5-1 can work but ultimately it's a cowardly formation designed around a lack of experience and tactical/mental ability. It's designed to pretend your team is better at doing basic tasks at the expense of goal threat. We don't even have the personnel to play the formation. we have no wingers to offset the lack of second striker and our defence is still shaky, not to mention the midfield play on instinct instead of regimented tactics. all in all it's like chucking a football into a primary school playground, the 'team' with the better kids will prevail but it doesn't mean they done a good job.

I'm in support of having a backup plan when we're just out of ideas and we refuse to risk it (i have no choice) but using such a last gasp plan as a plan b based on two injuries is quite frankly ludicrous.

 

[stuart]

I've not seen as much of the pre season games as i would have liked but although i've thought Hleb has looked a better player 'in the hole' i dont think it could work throughout a season and against quality premiership opposition. Against weaker teams, sure, we'll nearly always find a goal from somewhere but the problem with the formation (from what i've seen) is it's causing a striker to be dropped and lets face it. Hleb wont get the goals nor will our midfield to compensate for a missing forward. If Hleb could finish, say like Lampard, it could work, with his creativeness and goalscoring we wouldn't miss a striker ...as it stands....we would

 

[ZanYGooneR]

Yup, I'd much prefer Rosicky in the hole. Far more prolific - you can't have a second striker as goal-shy has Hleb. Rosicky has a sick shot from the 25-yard range where second strikers spend most of their time, and he is also better at getting on the end of crosses into the box, as he showed towards the end of last season. He is also sparkier and more mobile than Hleb.

Mar more prolific?? In what sense. I agree Rosicky does shoot more but most the time the ball flies over the bar of past the post rather than in the goal. There's no point in shooting just for the sake of shooting.

Personally for me Hleb has been 1 of our best players in pre season. In every game he's played he's been consistent and I just think he should never be played on the right wing ever again because everyone can see he plays better in the middle or on the left. Yesterday I think we should of started with Eduardo and Van Persie upfront with Hleb dropping off. I didn't see the point of playing Flamini, then again I never see the point of playing Flamini ever!!! And played 3 in the middle with Rosicky, Denilson, Diaby/Eboue.

 

[14teranga]

This formation will turn to be a master stroke in big big games but I can not see us using it week in week out. This is a formation that will give us all the must win games. It will make the opposition run their lungs off after the ball we will keep, it will give us a lot of dangerous set pieces and it does make us stronger defensively. I am sure we will never use it in a home game against Derby but for a CL knock out away game or a visit to Anfield, Bridge or Old Trafford this is a formation that will will do the trick.

Stronger defensively? Instead of papering over the cracks, why don't we just fix the blasted wall and use a defensive partnership that actually works?

As for how this formation is going to gift us must win games when it's so heavily reliant on moments of magic and in fact we've looked better after Wenger has gone back to a 4-4-2 every time, is beyond me.

Then again, let's not let small things like facts get in the way of the discussion.

I was not going into other individual performances in the team. But the Hleb-in-the-hole formation sounds good in big games to me. It makes us keep the ball : that is the first way to defend. Don't undermine my views I am quite knowledgeable in the game for your information.

Anyway, if you watch the Ajax game carefully you would realise we suffer a lot when we are clearing the ball anyhow from the defence and that just coincided with Rommehdal's time on the pitch and everytime we decide to keep the ball on the ground making it go through everybody particularly Hleb we are threatening. A big game is always won by a magical moment. And this formation allows a lot of it. An impossible pass from Hleb, a won free kick from Eboue, a magical moment from Van Persie. YOu will need that to beat Man U, liverpool and Chelsea not a winger, not a 2, 3 or 11 forwards in a formation.

And by the way I am for the Touré-Gallas partnership, it will click, it already has, but yeah there are some problems but so does any partnership : there's not something called perfection in a relationship. They are sure not the strongest pair for headers but that is fixable and I like the way things are progressing there.

 

[patrick42uk]

i understand where jgooner is coming from although i'd emphasise movement over his ability to shoot. rosicky's movement is more vertical, more pentrative so he'd get in scoring positions something hleb wont do with regularity. in that sense i think rosicky is a more offensive option for the second striker role.

in terms of hleb central in the long run? wont happen IMO. sure he'll play one or two games there, maybe in europe or in times of injury but IMO its more likely he's going left with eboue playing rm. i think 2 strikers is automatically a certainty. ade will almost always have to play because we'll lack a presence upfront otherwise. sure you can use hleb as a the focal point to build attacks, but what happens when theres no hole because the opposition midfield plays too close to the defence? thats a situation we will face a lot and thats when you'll need ade right up against the cbs.

 

[Lancelot]

4-5-1 can work but ultimately it's a cowardly formation designed around a lack of experience and tactical/mental ability. It's designed to pretend your team is better at doing basic tasks at the expense of goal threat. We don't even have the personnel to play the formation. we have no wingers to offset the lack of second striker and our defence is still shaky, not to mention the midfield play on instinct instead of regimented tactics. all in all it's like chucking a football into a primary school playground, the 'team' with the better kids will prevail but it doesn't mean they done a good job.

I strongly disagree with that. You can even play with the 4-3-3 and be as coward as Chelsea if you like; the formation doesn't have anything to do with the level of bravery or cowardice. It's about how you set up the team with the suitable players to deal with different kinds of situations in order to succeed. With the way we play our footy, I doubt that we are going make the 4-5-1 as cowardly as you think if we pick the right players for the job.

I believe that we can do well, in certain games, with the 4-5-1 formation with the current players we have at our disposal, just that we shouldn't play 2 defensive midfielders at the same time. That's just my two cents anyway.

Cheers.

 

[Mark]

I think this is only a temporary thing as we're going to have to start the season without Adebayor. It's a shame we can't develop some striking partnerships instead, but I guess Wenger's just trying it out with some future away games in Europe in mind, just as another option so our players get used to it.

I am surprised though that Hleb's been chosen to play there ahead of Rosicky. Tomas is a better goal-getter without a doubt, and I think Hleb would be more effective on the left, playing kind of like Pires used to.