Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by OnlyOne, Dec 20, 2019.
4 red cards massively effect those stats.
I think you're just coming up with names at this point to justify Emery's failure
I think this is a fair assessment. He has managed to get the minimum expectations out of the players, proper effort and work ethic.
For some of them, that is all they have to offer, which isn't good enough. We need better recruitment and spending. £72m on Pepe? It isn't fair on the lad, but good God, what were they thinking?!
Anybody that thinks we're in this position because we haven't spent enough is not honest with themselves.
I don't have a problem with Kroenke TBH. FSG haven't invested more in Liverpool than what KSE has done in Arsenal in the past 3 years, but we've absolutely squandered hundreds of millions of pounds on dross.
That's not on the owners. It's on the board/football people at the club. Like I've often said, even if Kroenke threw a couple hundred millions more our way, we'd probably end up going for Willian, Coutinho and other expensive bums.
Wolves are where they are because they've spent well. They haven't spent more than us.
We have one of the highest net spend in the past 5 years in the PL but we're massively underperforming because we spent our money on guys like Xhaka, mustafi, Özil(contract renewal), Mkhi, Sokratis and others.
We need to be very smart. From now on, deals like Tierney, Martinelli, Leno, Saliba are what we should be doing
In comparison, and for simplicity like VAR this is to be fair to everyone, let's look at spend and money received for us, Liverpool, City, United and Sp**s. I'm not looking at Chelsea as they had a transfer ban. And to be fair I'm using one source transfr market. Since the start of 18/19 we have the second highest net spend and 3 highest total spend.
Us. We spent 216m and sold players for a total of 55m giving us a net spend of 161m.
United spent 266m and received 91m in fees giving them a net spend of 175m.
City spent 220m and received 110m giving them a net spend of 110m.
Liverpool spent 172m and received 74m giving a new spend of 98m.
Sp**s spent 133m and recieved 55m giving a net spend of 78m.
Now of course squads are built over time. But weve been building now for a decade. Weve shelled out 100m on centre forwards, weve spent 100m on centre backs and spent more than that again in midfield. the simple question is at what point can we expect a return on that investment? an investment that puts us second top net spenders and 4m in 3rd place of total spend behind financially doped up City?
At what point do we just say we constantly screw up? and there is not one player City or Liverpool or United have signed in the last 5 years that we could not have competed with them for.
Not to the extent where an 18 game sample is that distorted though surely?
Fwiw I think it’s largely due to us not having creative players who can unlock the wide players.
If we can get control of the midfield battle then we can start dominating more games and the xG will swing back round.
Why would I do that? I’m not interested in Emery his targets in hindsight wouldn’t have helped us,
Zaha for his numbers expensive
Fabinho been injured
They wouldn’t have helped us anyways and you’ve completely missed my point.
I’m showing that we’ve never signed players requested or wanted by our managers and I’m not sure why Arteta thinks he would be different. This isn’t about Emery failing, I included Wenger too.
That was before TV money meant almost every EPL club regardless of size can have £10-20m players on the bench, and before we turned over £300m of talent for the price of a Mustafi and Mikhi on the dying days of Wenger / Gazidis.
Emery's targets simply weren't achievable though. Palace wanted £80m all at once for Zaha. Maguire was already lined up for Utd for a year. Fabinho deal to liverpool was just waiting a rubber stamp by the time Emery joined us. Partey at that time wanted to stay in Madrid.
We can all talk about what players someone wants, but as Wenger found out with Messi, Ronaldo, Zlatan, Pique and many more, sometimes you can find amazing players and try to sign them, but it just isn't possible
Luiz was determined by an urgent need for an experienced centre back after Lolo decided he didn;t want to play for Emery ever again. Not a great signing, not an awful one. Pretty much as expected. Not as good as the man he replaced was, but better than some of our other options...
He's definitely got diverse influences. Van Gaal, Luis Fernandez, Walter Smith, David Moyes, Wenger & Pep, as well as no doubt all kinds of others he has attempted to learn about.
Some pro youth, some v defensive, some v attacking, some v structured, some v freeform.
All we can conclude about what wants to achieve with his teams is on the more character and approach side of things, bar pressing from the front.
Yeah. Emery's football became terrifying and incomprehensible. It ended up being pure reliance on talent and trying very hard.
Firstly there's no point cherry picking the last 3 transfer windows vs teams who were better than us prior to those transfer windows, all except one of whom had MASSIVELY outspent us in the building of their squads at the start of that period. City had spent almost a billion poounds more than us on transfers prior to that point to build their squad. United about 6-700m more than us. Even Liverpool almost 200m more than us.
Your argument is without context and like economic theory only works 'all other things being equal', and for the same reasons as prevailing economic theory doesn't mean all that much, because other things are far from equal.
Also your final suggestion that "there is not one player City or Liverpool or United have signed in the last 5 years that we could not have competed with them for" is utterly laughable, unless you again remove it from the context of the actual real life situation. Wage levels alone dictate that, let alone fees.
And the point is it isn't any ONE player - it requires multiple to make a team. Which is why Mustafi has a world cup winners medal and Messi and Ronaldo don't.
I didnt cherry pick them. I picked them on the basis @Macho said we never backed Emery. for convenience I looked at seasons in which Emery was in charge rather than taking out the January 2020 window. I imagine if I done that there would be a drastic shift as thats when United signed Fernandes. Take that out it moves us up further.
As for the wages argument, please. Context. I assumed people knew of our situation. Naive of me. We have the 5th highest wage bill in the league 40m below Liverpool in second place, sandwiched between us are Chelsea and City. Those clubs have also paid out CL bonuses. So yes I stand over that statement we could compete with any club over an individual signing. We pay 350 per week to Özil for nothing, paid Mkhitaryan 250k pw and pay Aubameyang and Lacazette 200k pw. If we wanted them we can afford to pay the going rate. The fact that we are now dealing with agents and paying agents more than we done in the past is another indicator we can do the business if we want.
I'll go back and address some of your points later. But your context argument about other clubs buying more is amiss. Simple points. We went another way of developing rather than buying. And we developed players worth the 50m other clubs were spending on players. We then failed to sell players to give us more to buy (a simple look at the figures I provided shows we were joint bottom for selling) and even then we still spent hundreds of millions.
I'll look at the figures to see if what I'm saying is correct. I believe it is just by general knowledge of the situation but of course the figures will provide the answer.
Hope all's well with you and yours.
Major reason why I signed up here, a joy to read your posts.
Luiz is a decent footballer, I was just replying to HairSprayGooners claim that "at the time the majority of people were very happy with our business"
No-one ( in their right mind ) was happy that we signed that chav **** at the time, and the bile does rise every time I see that turd in an Arsenal shirt.
Prove me wrong and get the winner today* and I'll get Luiz on my next shirt.
Lots of love
*and in the Final, I don't want to make it too easy for him
TV money has been going since 1992 and whilst it has increased in leaps and bounds, so has the price of players. In the last decade the average cost of EPL transfers have risen from £3.7m to £14m, increasing nearly x4. TV money has increased from £1.7bn to £5.1bn, about x3.
By far the biggest change has been the unstoppable rise of billionaire foreign owners sinking their own money into clubs through loans and share deals. Not just Chelsea and City but teams like Wolves, Everton, Leicester etc. Even the Brighton owner has sunk £200m of his own money into the club. To my knowledge Kroenke hasn't invested 1 cent of his own personal money into the club since he becaming the major shareholder.
The usual net/gross spend quotes on here, don't interest me. A squad takes years to build. And there is only one figure which tells you the true investment in the team and that's the cost of the 25 man squad, published by CIES every year. Currently we are 5th in the league behind City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea. Slightly above Everton and Sp**s. To get into the top 4 we will have to out perform our squad investment as Wenger did for years.
And as for the dying days of Wenger, from 2015/16 to the day he left, the club was under enormous pressure from the fans. Boycotts, protests, social media rants, planes overhead etc and basically it became alarmed and over reacted with panic buys, and Wenger even trying crazy defensive tactics, which were a joke for him. The whole club was paralysed and dropped like a stone. Wholesale personnel changes since, ridiculous transfer windows . . . it's still in freefall.
I think one of the biggest problems is that we were spending money without a proper structure in place behind the scenes. I am far more hopeful for the future now we have Edu in place. There has been talk that him and Mikel working closely together identifying how the squad can be improved, football men, making football decisions. Raul and Vinai can just concentrate on the money side of things, negotiating deals and making sure our commercial revenue is maximised, money men, making money decisions. That is another area of Arsenal that has been as chronically mismanaged as the squad building but that's a whole other conversation. I think it is also important that Josh is taking an interest in us, Stan has pretty much none which is just weird really, how can you have no interest in your multi billion pound investment????
We need to be very patient as fans as I don't think we will see proper improvement until 2021-2022 season. We still have the massive, massive boat anchor of Özil, the stats DNA era and the Mislintat old Dortmund bums era holding us back. I would love to see a lot of those 'mistakes' out the door this Summer but realistically I know we will have to wait until next year when a lot of contracts expire. Could have been what Mikel was hinting at when he was talking about harmony?
He was exactly the player we didn't need. Sokratis and and Mustafi are both rash and needed someone steady, experienced and safe. Instead we got a technically gifted player who is prone to howlers, and always has been . . . getting worse the slower he becomes with age.
Watch Arsenal Live Streams With StreamFootball.tv