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PL | Manchester City v Arsenal | 5th November 2017 | 14:15 GMT | Sky Sports

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Match Prediction


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STATS

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Two things I've learned from watching matches over the years. Every manager is criticised for team selection when they lose. And often those frustrated with the loss say they saw it coming.

Nothing changes in football.
So you think leaving out Lacazette for Özil/Iwobi as well playing Coq as a CB was the right decision?
Also, it would help if you can simply answer in binary Yes/No.
 
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STATS

Active Member
@STATS not buying it. You play to the whistle, Silva done it, Jesus done it, Bellerin done it Kos and Character stopped dead. School boy stuff.
Fair enough mate. Simply saying that I can understand the player's mentality.
As for Silva, he did stop. If you look at the replay, he slows down and IIRC has a look at the linesman and then simply picks out the pass. It was simply the fact that Silva was running in the opposite direction to the players and hence barely had to take a step to getting to the ball.
 

Makingtrax

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So you think leaving out Lacazette for Özil/Iwobi as well playing Coq as a CB was the right decision?
Also, it would help if you can simply answer in binary Yes/No.
There are dozens of possible managerial decisions bro. If you lose you were wrong, if you win you were right. Simple as.

Those people who say I told you he should have played x instead of y, or 'a' formation instead 'b' are not in the hot seat and no one will ever know if they're right or wrong, so they can boast all they want.

If Wenger had gone with a more attacking formation we could have lost 4 nil. Or as you like to call it, 100-0. Hope that's binary enough for you.

The truth is, that 800m euro team were always going to out gun us, so we needed some luck. But they got the luck too.
 

Ceballinhos

Cheating on Santi
There are dozens of possible managerial decisions bro. If you lose you were wrong, if you win you were right. Simple as.

Those people who say I told you he should have played x instead of y, or 'a' formation instead 'b' are not in the hot seat and no one will ever know if they're right or wrong, so they can boast all they want.

If Wenger had gone with a more attacking formation we could have lost 4 nil. Or as you like to call it, 100-0. Hope that's binary enough for you.

The truth is, that 800m euro team were always going to out gun us, so we needed some luck. But they got the luck too.

I agree but you can criticize his choices.
Ofc there's a part of luck and if we have won the game maybe people would have hailed Wenger for his choicies.
But at the end of the day there are some obvious choices you have to make to have a better chance to win the game.

Why is Wenger always sticking with his 352 even though we don't have the players to use it effectively, because of injuries.
Why has he started Coquelin at CB for the 1st time ever against the best team in the League when we could have played with a back 4 with players who are used to play at their position? And play Coquelin as a solid DM where he's the best at?
Defence is all about partnership chemistery and experience. Why do we throw Coquelin at CB against the best offensive team in the world when we could havec played with 2 CB Nacho & Koscielny who are used to play CB and have already developped a partnership?

I'm not saying we would have won this game.

Most of modern coaches adapt their formation to their available players and to the opponent.
Wenger doesn't. (or exceptionnaly)

It's not just against City.
Why do we have to play this formation in the Europa League, and play like 5 players out of position just to stick with the 3-5-2?
Are we doing any favor to a young guy like Nelson by playing him as a RWB? I don't think so.

It was ridiculous at the beginning of the season when for the first 3 games I think we haven't ended a single one with the 352 because it wasn't working.

I don't agree with your fatalism. Ofc that a 800m euros team has more chances to win the game.
It doesn't mean we have no chance nor excuses the poor choices Wenger has made.

Let's just start by playing our best players at their natural position. And we'll see how we go from there.
 
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Makingtrax

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I agree but you can criticize his choices.
Ofc there's a part of luck and if we have won the game maybe people would have hailed Wenger for his choicies.
But at the end of the day there are some obvious choices you have to make to have a better chance to win the game.

Why is Wenger always sticking with his 352 even though we don't have the players to use it effectively, because of injuries.
Why has he started Coquelin at CB for the 1st time ever against the best team in the League when we could have played with a back 4 with players who are used to play at their position? And play Coquelin as a solid DM where he's the best at?

I'm not saying we would have won this game.

Most of modern coaches adapt their formation to their available players and to the opponent.
Wenger doesn't. (or exceptionnaly)

It's not just against City.
Why do we have to play this formation in the Europa League, and play like 5 players out of position just to stick with the 3-5-2?
Are we doing any favor to a young guy like Nelson by playing him as a RWB? I don't think so.

It was ridiculous at the beginning of the season when for the first 3 games I think we haven't ended a single one with the 352 because it wasn't working.

I don't agree with your fatalism. Ofc that a 800m euros team has more chances to win the game.
It doesn't mean we have no chance nor excuses the poor choices Wenger has made.

Let's just start by playing our best players at their natural position. And we'll see how we go from there.
You're talking like Wenger's a complete idiot, instead of somebody who has broken records all over the managerial spectrum. You've just bought into the 'frustrated fan' story, that's all over social media.

Good managers who see their players in training everyday put them in the position they feel they can take advantage of their skill set. Pep putting Delph into full back or Conte shoe horning Moses into a wing back etc It goes on all the time. And of course Rinus Michels, the father of total football, felt that players should interchange positions regularly and run free. What goes around, comes around.

The bottom line is whatever you do is 'right' if you're winning . And that's why the managers of the richest clubs are cut more slack and praised more often.

Probability is not fatalistic bro. It's detached and very mathematical. If you have an 853m euro squad you are more likely the win the league than Wenger's 416meuro squad. It's not rocket science. And funnily enough it's going to look like the 815m euro squad manager is doing everything right and the 416m euro squad manager is clueless in comparison.
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
Y. And funnily enough it's going to look like the 815m euro squad manager is doing everything right and the 416m euro squad manager is clueless in comparison.
Yes, but how much more of an idiot does he look when he leaves his brand new striker on the bench...
Or when he plays a RB at LWB.
He is handicapped, no doubt, but he is also handicapping us further in his decision making. This is the argument. That he is no longer the man to put faith in to bridge the gap. Maybe nobody can. But we know he can't anymore....
 

Makingtrax

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Yes, but how much more of an idiot does he look when he leaves his brand new striker on the bench...
Or when he plays a RB at LWB.
He is handicapped, no doubt, but he is also handicapping us further in his decision making. This is the argument. That he is no longer the man to put faith in to bridge the gap. Maybe nobody can. But we know he can't anymore....
I'm not criticising Wenger's decisions because I'm happy to admit I know a lot less than an award winning manager who's kept a team in the top 4 of the most difficult league in the world for 20 years.

But more than happy to see someone else try for a change.
 

Ceballinhos

Cheating on Santi
You're talking like Wenger's a complete idiot, instead of somebody who has broken records all over the managerial spectrum. You've just bought into the 'frustrated fan' story, that's all over social media.

Good managers who see their players in training everyday put them in the position they feel they can take advantage of their skill set. Pep putting Delph into full back or Conte shoe horning Moses into a wing back etc It goes on all the time. And of course Rinus Michels, the father of total football, felt that players should interchange positions regularly and run free. What goes around, comes around.

The bottom line is whatever you do is 'right' if you're winning . And that's why the managers of the richest clubs are cut more slack and praised more often.

Probability is not fatalistic bro. It's detached and very mathematical. If you have an 853m euro squad you are more likely the win the league than Wenger's 416meuro squad. It's not rocket science. And funnily enough it's going to look like the 815m euro squad manager is doing everything right and the 416m euro squad manager is clueless in comparison.

I'm not saying he's an idiot. Never said that and never will.
But sometimes he gets things wrong, as every manager does.
And I think he is making bad decisions right now. I'm not saying I'm right or I know better than Wenger, I'm just giving my opinion.
It's a shame Wenger doesn't talk more about his choices from a football perspective. I would have liked to hear his logic behind Coquelin and letting Lacazette on the bench but he only talked about the ref and the dive.

About Delph and Moses, once again you're taking things out of context.

First of all, I think CB is special. It's all about experience and partnership. Even if you throw 2 world class CB that have never played together it won't be optimal.

I'm not against trying Coquelin as a CB. What I'm saying is that it's not a good idea to throw him for the 1st time, in this position which is very special and hard to play, against the best offensive team in the world right now, when you have a safer option by playing a back 4 with 2 CB that have experience playing together.

you like bringing probability up.
So I'm gonna use it against you: If you play your best players at their best position, you have more chance to win a game than if not. It's just mathematics :lol:

I don't think you're understanding my opinion:
I'm not saying we would have won the game with another coach or tactic.
I just think we're not helping ourselves by letting our best scorer on the bench and playing a player out of position.
 

say yes

forum master baiter
@Makingtrax when Arsenal win and people complain about Wenger:

"Jheez, you can't keep some people happy! :lol:"

@Makingtrax when Arsenal lose and people complain about Wenger:

"Always the same after a loss, everyone knows better than the manager :lol:."
 
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Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
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@Makingtrax when Arsenal win and people complain about Wenger:

"Jheez, you can't keep some people happy! :lol:"

@Makingtrax when Arsenal lose and people complain about Wenger:

"Always the same after a loss, everyone knows better than the manager :lol:."
Top post . . shows that people do nothing but complain about Wenger all the time.

I'd like to see a change now, to see what someone else can do. This current squad is clearly not performing how Wenger'd like.

But if we can get someone who can average a major domestic trophy once every two years for 20 years I'll munch down my beanie.
 

say yes

forum master baiter
Top post . . shows that people do nothing but complain about Wenger all the time.

I'd like to see a change now, to see what someone else can do. This current squad is clearly not performing how Wenger'd like.

But if we can get someone who can average a major domestic trophy once every two years for 20 years I'll munch down my beanie.

SMITH-GIF-1.gif
 

STATS

Active Member
There are dozens of possible managerial decisions bro. If you lose you were wrong, if you win you were right. Simple as.

Those people who say I told you he should have played x instead of y, or 'a' formation instead 'b' are not in the hot seat and no one will ever know if they're right or wrong, so they can boast all they want.

If Wenger had gone with a more attacking formation we could have lost 4 nil. Or as you like to call it, 100-0. Hope that's binary enough for you.

The truth is, that 800m euro team were always going to out gun us, so we needed some luck. But they got the luck too.
I am not talking about tactics here. I was quite happy that he had changed and apparently gone to a 4-3-3 to suss out City's midfield of Kdb, Silva and Fernandinho.
Playing Coq as a CB against one of the best teams in the world was IDIOTIC, no hindsight needed in that.
Not playing your best striker who has been great for us and playing a useless bottler in place of him, was IDIOTIC, no hindsight needed in that too.

What is watford's squad cost? If 800mil euros was the only reason city were going to outgun us, then why did we lose to watford? Why did we lose to Stoke?
Stoke have a squad cost of 126mil euros, Watford 156mil euros, ours is apparently 418mil euros. So stop with your excuses. I am not critisizing him for playing the wrong or the right tactics. We all know thats useless and winning a game on tactics should not even be expected out of wenger. But the bare minimum he can do is put our best players in their positions the next time we go to play a big team.
 

tcahill

Well-Known Member
I am not talking about tactics here. I was quite happy that he had changed and apparently gone to a 4-3-3 to suss out City's midfield of Kdb, Silva and Fernandinho.
Playing Coq as a CB against one of the best teams in the world was IDIOTIC, no hindsight needed in that.
Not playing your best striker who has been great for us and playing a useless bottler in place of him, was IDIOTIC, no hindsight needed in that too.

What is watford's squad cost? If 800mil euros was the only reason city were going to outgun us, then why did we lose to watford? Why did we lose to Stoke?
Stoke have a squad cost of 126mil euros, Watford 156mil euros, ours is apparently 418mil euros. So stop with your excuses. I am not critisizing him for playing the wrong or the right tactics. We all know thats useless and winning a game on tactics should not even be expected out of wenger. But the bare minimum he can do is put our best players in their positions the next time we go to play a big team.

Coq was deployed as a CDM, we just sat so deep he was pretty much forced into the CB role. An understandable gamble, seeing as Coq is a good ball winner and we didn't expect to have much of the ball. And Coq was far from our worst performer, he did a decent job. I'm not saying it was the right decision, but I see Wenger's logic. It's not completely silly like not playing your star striker (oh wait).

I'd argue that playing a 3-4-3, which has many advantages, but is extremely vulnerable to fast counter attacks, would have been an equally stupid lineup considering we were facing a front 4 of Sane, Sterling, Aguero, and that ginger haired Belgian kid.
Or maybe you'd rather have gone a 4-3-3 with a tired Wilshere who hasn't played in the league all season next to Xhaka and Ramsey. A midfield that offers no defensive presence at all, City would have run right through that one. Or maybe Elneny, who nobody on this forum rates at all.

I agree about the Lacazette decision though, you don't see Cristiano or Messi coming on as a sub halfway through to 'play against a tired defence'

You've also strawmanned the squad cost argument. Last season Watford was almost relegated, and Stoke were at best mid-table. Stoke haven't improved this season, and while Watford are doing well (to their credit), I can't see them maintaining their high position for the whole season. While we didn't beat them at their home grounds, we'll definitely finish far above both of them this season. That's the squad cost argument, which as I've said before, is very broad and is pretty much just common sense.
 

Zyrth

Active Member
Coq was deployed as a CDM, we just sat so deep he was pretty much forced into the CB role. An understandable gamble, seeing as Coq is a good ball winner and we didn't expect to have much of the ball. And Coq was far from our worst performer, he did a decent job. I'm not saying it was the right decision, but I see Wenger's logic. It's not completely silly like not playing your star striker (oh wait).

I'd argue that playing a 3-4-3, which has many advantages, but is extremely vulnerable to fast counter attacks, would have been an equally stupid lineup considering we were facing a front 4 of Sane, Sterling, Aguero, and that ginger haired Belgian kid.
Or maybe you'd rather have gone a 4-3-3 with a tired Wilshere who hasn't played in the league all season next to Xhaka and Ramsey. A midfield that offers no defensive presence at all, City would have run right through that one. Or maybe Elneny, who nobody on this forum rates at all.

I agree about the Lacazette decision though, you don't see Cristiano or Messi coming on as a sub halfway through to 'play against a tired defence'

You've also strawmanned the squad cost argument. Last season Watford was almost relegated, and Stoke were at best mid-table. Stoke haven't improved this season, and while Watford are doing well (to their credit), I can't see them maintaining their high position for the whole season. While we didn't beat them at their home grounds, we'll definitely finish far above both of them this season. That's the squad cost argument, which as I've said before, is very broad and is pretty much just common sense.
Perfect post.
 

<<reed>>

Lidl Tir Na Nog
You've also strawmanned the squad cost argument. Last season Watford was almost relegated, and Stoke were at best mid-table. Stoke haven't improved this season, and while Watford are doing well (to their credit), I can't see them maintaining their high position for the whole season. While we didn't beat them at their home grounds, we'll definitely finish far above both of them this season. That's the squad cost argument, which as I've said before, is very broad and is pretty much just common sense.
I am afraid your knowledge about the squad cost argument is incorrect. You are saying that the squad cost theory is only about the final positions in the table, not about particular results, but I often see Makingtrax, the creator of the doctrine, blaming only the squad costs for specific loses.
 
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STATS

Active Member
Coq was deployed as a CDM, we just sat so deep he was pretty much forced into the CB role. An understandable gamble, seeing as Coq is a good ball winner and we didn't expect to have much of the ball. And Coq was far from our worst performer, he did a decent job. I'm not saying it was the right decision, but I see Wenger's logic. It's not completely silly like not playing your star striker (oh wait).

I'd argue that playing a 3-4-3, which has many advantages, but is extremely vulnerable to fast counter attacks, would have been an equally stupid lineup considering we were facing a front 4 of Sane, Sterling, Aguero, and that ginger haired Belgian kid.
Or maybe you'd rather have gone a 4-3-3 with a tired Wilshere who hasn't played in the league all season next to Xhaka and Ramsey. A midfield that offers no defensive presence at all, City would have run right through that one. Or maybe Elneny, who nobody on this forum rates at all.

I agree about the Lacazette decision though, you don't see Cristiano or Messi coming on as a sub halfway through to 'play against a tired defence'

You've also strawmanned the squad cost argument. Last season Watford was almost relegated, and Stoke were at best mid-table. Stoke haven't improved this season, and while Watford are doing well (to their credit), I can't see them maintaining their high position for the whole season. While we didn't beat them at their home grounds, we'll definitely finish far above both of them this season. That's the squad cost argument, which as I've said before, is very broad and is pretty much just common sense.

Lets start with the squad cost argument. The poster that I quoted said, and I quote:

"The truth is, that 800m euro team were always going to out gun us"

Which is simply to be put bullshit. Over the course of a season, yes the probability might be higher that city finish over us, but taking into account an individual game, tactics can play a massive role. And thats the reason I bought in watford and stoke into it. IF watford had gone into the game with the simple thinking of "The truth is, that a 400m euro team were always going to out gun us", we would have walked over them. We did not, and they beat us. Hence trying to draw the parallels between those things. Also the difference in class between us and the likes of watford/stoke (with all due respect) is much higher than the difference between us and city.

I dont know what game you were watching, but even when we were on the front foot (those 10mins), Coq played as a CB not a CDM. We DID play a 3-4-3. As for a 3 man mid, we could have played the same 3 midfielders that actually started but could have played a 4-3-3. I think our difference of opinion is basically on the formation we actually did play.
I doubt any team can play a 4 man defence and have their 2 Cbs as far apart as Kos and Nacho were all game long. Simply not possible. Coq did play as a CB.
 
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