PL: Southampton vs Arsenal | December 16, 2018 13:30 GMT | Sky Sports

[Makingtrax]

Rubbish, people started to lose hope as soon as they saw line ups and formation.

Some people will criticise the inclusion of somebody or moan about tactics, say 3 at the back, every game. And then we win or draw, they just keep quiet.

But when they say these things and we lose, they all say, ‘See I told you he shouldn’t have played 3 at the back for this game’.

Can’t believe you haven’t noticed this, it happens all the time. I take no notice because Emery is an outstanding pro and for some reason I always expect him to know more than the average fan.

And if he loses, it could be down to something other than his choice of players or tactics . . . something like losing two experienced full backs to injury during the game, for example.

Hitting on the guy after just a few games in charge seems beyond crazy to me. Just saying bro.

 

[Makingtrax]

I find this narrative very annoying. Posters like @Toby Andrl have been saying for a while that our performances haven't quite matched our results and underlying issues would eventually cause us problems. This loss wasn't out of the blue, it was symptomatic of our team's inability to start games on the front foot and create good, consistent goalscoring opportunities. While I understand injuries didn't help us, the same problems that we've seen over the past months were apparent and cost us the game. This loss was not a fluke, it was the unbeaten run that was. Props to Emery for achieving it, but we need to start seeing improvements in our actual performances soon or else we'll drop more points against smaller sides.

I’m sorry you find it annoying bro, but I stand by it. I’m not critising other posters.

Emery looks the real deal to me. He’s passionate, humble, hard working, makes difficult changes when necessary, and from the reports of players, is working individually with most players to get them to do what he wants.

This game was the fluke, a team that had been doing badly suddenly finds new confidence because of a new passionate manager. Seen that before. And Arsenal were ravaged by injuries. The Southampton first two goals were almost unstoppable, pin point accurate crosses and superb headers. Sometimes you have to stop critising our players because of the quality of the finishing.

And in previous games most of our problems have come from individual errors rather than tactical errors. Mustafi, Bellerin, Holding and Sokratis, have all made howlers . . rash challenges in dangerous areas giving away free kicks and penalties.

You know my view on this, Klopp was hammered by people on RAWK for his defensive frailties and as soon as he buys VVD and Allison he’s an all round manager all of a sudden, and all those gripes have stopped. Emery instead got Sokratis and Leno and everybody expects them to be as good even though their market value is well below the Liverpool pair. And when they make mistakes it’s Emery’s tactics at fault.

I’m seeing very similar problems to the ones Wenger had. And I was out on a limb here because I thought then that he was playing with inferior players compared to the richer clubs and his problems were quality rather than tactics. Emery comes and the same criticisms are already levelled at him after just a few games. But guess what, by and large he’s playing with the same calibre players. That’s the pattern here.

He needs time to a) mould the players he has and at least try to get the errors out of them and b) change personnel in at least two or three transfer windows.

Emery could have won this game if he hadn’t been hit by extensive injuries and Southampton hadn’t just changed their manager. Those things are out of the managers control.

It’s too easy and too early to be critising him, let’s give him a chance and not have unrealistic expectations. 22 unbeaten run is fantastic in his first season when he has a team spending 5th in the league. We are not Man City.

 

[say yes]

A lot of squads have "problems". I'd actually say any squad in the world bar City has "problems". Still, a lot of managers have a wholesome idea about football and get that across to their "problematic", unbalanced and low quality squads and make them play in a distinct way, giving them the tools to defend and score regardless of quality or problems. I really don't think just stacking up on more quality will solve the real tactical problems at Arsenal Emery hasn't been able to address yet.

Emery hasn't even had half a league season yet. That's hardly enough time to leave your imprint on any club, let alone one where the previous manager had served for well over two decades.

I agree with you that the results have belied our performances and that a loss like this was coming. Other than that I think you're being extremely harsh however.

Do I know precisely how Emery wants to set us up in attack yet? No. And to be frank nor do I care. He's been here for 6 months and one transfer window. Very few of these players are his own. None of our attacking ones are. He's had to be pragmatic with the tools that were left for him and the results have been better than almost anyone on here (and certainly any of our rivals) expected.

I get that you want to see more progression in our style of play but I've got no problem with Emery putting results first. And I say 'more' progression because there's clearly been quite a lot already: we're the hardest working team in the league; we're determined to play out from the back; our CMs are far more disciplined; we're pressing well; and we're tactically flexible. How much of that could you say under Wenger?

I can wait for the rest.

 

[Maybe]

Some people will criticise the inclusion of somebody or moan about tactics, say 3 at the back, every game. And then we win or draw, they just keep quiet.

I think there wasn't a single person approving this formation and lineup. I enjoy this discussions if we should play Ramsey or Özil, 4-3-3 or 3-5-2 but the setup from Emery was just embarrassing and he needs to do better. This is not saying he's a bad manager, it was just poor setup from him and we lost points. Managers can lose us points just as CB's and GK's

 

[Aevi]

I’m sorry you find it annoying bro, but I stand by it. I’m not critising other posters.

Emery looks the real deal to me. He’s passionate, humble, hard working, makes difficult changes when necessary, and from the reports of players, is working individually with most players to get them to do what he wants.

This game was the fluke, a team that had been doing badly suddenly finds new confidence because of a new passionate manager. Seen that before. And Arsenal were ravaged by injuries. The Southampton first two goals were almost unstoppable, pin point accurate crosses and superb headers. Sometimes you have to stop critising our players because of the quality of the finishing.

And in previous games most of our problems have come from individual errors rather than tactical errors. Mustafi, Bellerin, Holding and Sokratis, have all made howlers . . rash challenges in dangerous areas giving away free kicks and penalties.

You know my view on this, Klopp was hammered by people on RAWK for his defensive frailties and as soon as he buys VVD and Allison he’s an all round manager all of a sudden, and all those gripes have stopped. Emery instead got Sokratis and Leno and everybody expects them to be as good even though their market value is well below the Liverpool pair. And when they make mistakes it’s Emery’s tactics at fault.

I’m seeing very similar problems to the ones Wenger had. And I was out on a limb here because I thought then that he was playing with inferior players compared to the richer clubs and his problems were quality rather than tactics. Emery comes and the same criticisms are already levelled at him after just a few games. But guess what, by and large he’s playing with the same calibre players. That’s the pattern here.

He needs time to a) mould the players he has and at least try to get the errors out of them and b) change personnel in at least two or three transfer windows.

Emery could have won this game if he hadn’t been hit by extensive injuries and Southampton hadn’t just changed their manager. Those things are out of the managers control.

It’s too easy and too early to be critising him, let’s give him a chance and not have unrealistic expectations. 22 unbeaten run is fantastic in his first season when he has a team spending 5th in the league. We are not Man City.

Emery hasn't even had half a league season yet. That's hardly enough time to leave your imprint on any club, let alone one where the previous manager had served for well over two decades.

I agree with you that the results have belied our performances and that a loss like this was coming. Other than that I think you're being extremely harsh however.

Do I know precisely how Emery wants to set us up in attack yet? No. And to be frank nor do I care. He's been here for 6 months and one transfer window. Very few of these players are his own. None of our attacking ones are. He's had to be pragmatic with the tools that were left for him and the results have been better than almost anyone on here (and certainly any of our rivals) expected.

I get that you want to see more progression in our style of play but I've got no problem with Emery putting results first. And I say 'more' progression because there's clearly been quite a lot already: we're the hardest working team in the league; we're determined to play out from the back; our CMs are far more disciplined; we're pressing well; and we're tactically flexible. How much of that could you say under Wenger?

I can wait for the rest.

I don't have a problem with giving Emery time. I'd actually quite like for that to happen. But I don't like the idea some people have that because he's new, we must keep our criticism to ourselves. You can criticize without meaning to be negative, and I'm sure that's what most people's intentions are. The bottom line is that while he's done good work thus far in terms of getting us results, shaky performances are still a cause for concern because results eventually come to match them. It's a valid thing to bring up.

Where I do empathize with him is that we've got 4 other clubs doing freakishly well this season, so he's having to reach a higher bar than in the past. CL football is a big target for next season and I'm not convinced we look the part to get it atm, at least in the Prem. And that worries me a little.

 

[say yes]

I don't have a problem with giving Emery time. I'd actually quite like for that to happen. But I don't like the idea some people have that because he's new, we must keep our criticism to ourselves. You can criticize without meaning to be negative, and I'm sure that's what most people's intentions are. The bottom line is that while he's done good work thus far in terms of getting us results, shaky performances are still a cause for concern because results eventually come to match them. It's a valid thing to bring up.

No problem with people criticising Emery (and I think @Toby Andrl has done so very eloquently), I just don't agree with them.

Although it does seem crazy that we're even talking about 'giving Emery time' given how well he's started. Thought that was the kind of line that got trotted out when you're struggling in 8th or something. Not when you've just had your first loss in 23 games.

 

[Aevi]

No problem with people criticising Emery (and I think @Toby Andrl has done so very eloquently), I just don't agree with them.

Although it does seem crazy that we're even talking about 'giving Emery time' given how well he's started. Thought that was the kind of line that got trotted out when you're struggling in 8th or something. Not when you've just had your first loss in 23 games.

I'm just saying it because I assume some people think that by criticizing him I want him out of here. It's obviously pretty much a given though.

 

[Rex Stone]

My theory on a lot of the shakiness is that he needs to sort out the midfield. I think Guendouzi’s gonna be a quality player, but if you don’t have Xhaka in midfield we are ridiculously susceptible to a press.

Southampton didn’t have a particularly high energy front line but because we couldn’t play the ball through midfield they were all over us like peak Barcelona.

The links to Banega made a lot of sense in retrospect, someone who can dictate play and resist a press. It’s one area we’re short in.

With Ramsey frozen out, our countering threat is non existent. I don’t think we’ll see many goals like we did against Fulham or Sp**s that kill games off simply because we don’t have the players for it.

With no Ramsey and no Banega type player I think we’ll struggle to put teams away unless we’re clinical up front to a ridiculous extent. I think Emery is moving towards a certain style, we just don’t have the players for it yet.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

My theory on a lot of the shakiness is that he needs to sort out the midfield. I think Guendouzi’s gonna be a quality player, but if you don’t have Xhaka in midfield we are ridiculously susceptible to a press.

Southampton didn’t have a particularly high energy front line but because we couldn’t play the ball through midfield they were all over us like peak Barcelona.

The links to Banega made a lot of sense in retrospect, someone who can dictate play and resist a press. It’s one area we’re short in.

With Ramsey frozen out, our countering threat is non existent. I don’t think we’ll see many goals like we did against Fulham or Sp**s that kill games off simply because we don’t have the players for it.

With no Ramsey and no Banega type player I think we’ll struggle to put teams away unless we’re clinical up front to a ridiculous extent. I think Emery is moving towards a certain style, we just don’t have the players for it yet.

This is pretty much it for me. Hence why I constantly bring up to comparisons to the Poch and Klopp first seasons, they dropped a lot of points in games they should have won too (tho as I've also said Emery is still outperforming them) and a huge part of it was down to they just didn't have the players needed in key positions to successfully implement their style. Especially Liverpool, their team back in 15/16 without the pace and brilliance of their attacking options now (as well as their defensive reinforcements) meant they struggled against lesser opposition at times.

We lack a few things in terms of personnel as you say the Banega type to help us control games a bit more effectively as well as the counter attacking options which I feel is why we're seeing links to Pepe, Pavon and those types of players. At the moment we're heavily reliant on Auba's pace as our only real threat on the counter, but you can't expect one man to do it on his own. Mkhitaryan was quite poor yesterday in his decision making in transitions while Iwobi's form has hit a major dip.

 

[Preacher]

This first and foremost shows to me, that we have a personnel problem. You can be the best coach in the world, but if your players will make individual mistakes and will cost goals time and time again, your hands will be tied behind your back tactically. Emery already tried few different approaches, but defensively situation remains very similar.

 

[Makingtrax]

I don't have a problem with giving Emery time. I'd actually quite like for that to happen. But I don't like the idea some people have that because he's new, we must keep our criticism to ourselves. You can criticize without meaning to be negative, and I'm sure that's what most people's intentions are. The bottom line is that while he's done good work thus far in terms of getting us results, shaky performances are still a cause for concern because results eventually come to match them. It's a valid thing to bring up.

Where I do empathize with him is that we've got 4 other clubs doing freakishly well this season, so he's having to reach a higher bar than in the past. CL football is a big target for next season and I'm not convinced we look the part to get it atm, at least in the Prem. And that worries me a little.

People can critise Emery, that’s fine. I just they’re wrong, that’s all. And I personally don’t believe it’s a valid thing to bring up at this stage. But, hey, it’s a football forum, and we all have different opinions.

I think it’s only natural that you’re seeing the players make the same mistakes, by and large they’re the same players. And if he is able to improve their ability, it won’t happen over night.

 

[Makingtrax]

This first and foremost shows to me, that we have a personnel problem. You can be the best coach in the world, but if your players will make individual mistakes and will cost goals time and time again, your hands will be tied behind your back tactically. Emery already tried few different approaches, but defensively situation remains very similar.

Thanks, it’s always nice to see evidence of what you’ve been thinking/posting.

 

[Makingtrax]

My theory on a lot of the shakiness is that he needs to sort out the midfield. I think Guendouzi’s gonna be a quality player, but if you don’t have Xhaka in midfield we are ridiculously susceptible to a press.

Southampton didn’t have a particularly high energy front line but because we couldn’t play the ball through midfield they were all over us like peak Barcelona.

The links to Banega made a lot of sense in retrospect, someone who can dictate play and resist a press. It’s one area we’re short in.

With Ramsey frozen out, our countering threat is non existent. I don’t think we’ll see many goals like we did against Fulham or Sp**s that kill games off simply because we don’t have the players for it.

With no Ramsey and no Banega type player I think we’ll struggle to put teams away unless we’re clinical up front to a ridiculous extent. I think Emery is moving towards a certain style, we just don’t have the players for it yet.

Agree with that, but worth adding that Xhaka not being in midfield was down to the ridiculous injury toll on our defence. I also think he may well have brought Ramsey on at some stage if two full back injuries hadn’t derailed his plans.

 

[Makingtrax]

This is not saying he's a bad manager, it was just poor setup from him and we lost points. Managers can lose us points just as CB's and GK's

Except in the case of GKs or CBs it’s a bit more obvious.

Given his injuries, there were a number of possible selection combinations. Deciding which one might best yield a win is somewhat of a lottery.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

Opposition being allowed to cross without pressure into the box and our guys in the box too far off or completely unaware of opposition attackers' movements has been a ridiculously consistent problem of this Arsenal side, whether under Wenger or now Emery.

Yesterday was really frustrating and what you write has been a problem for us for ages. I think with the makeshift back line yesterday aggravated the issue further, although the midfield players didn't help either by not closing down. Would be nice if we could finally learn how defend against crosses though...

 

[Toby]

Yesterday was really frustrating and what you write has been a problem for us for ages. I think with the makeshift back line yesterday aggravated the issue further, although the midfield players didn't help either by not closing down. Would be nice if we could finally learn how defend against crosses though...

Some of the worst coaches in the league have been able to use the timidness of especially our fullbacks to attack or rattle the ball carrier out wide to do real damage to us. No matter the actual player, our fullbacks are more trace-protection than defenders most of the time and have been for years. It's really startling 'cause it's so basic. Just get at the guy somehow and the cross will become an aimless ball into the box which is one of the least dangerous plays out there.

The defending in our box, whether it's crosses or standards also has been shambolic for years and there's not an inch of work on that. **** like Bellerin man marking the oppositions' best header who is 15cm taller than him is still happening. Wenger and Emery are too focused on zonal defending for standards and forget that zonal defending is also about physicality.

That actually speaks volumes in regards to the weakness on crosses. The fullbacks protect the zone, tracking players and pushing them out wide, trying to make sure they can't get into that more central zone behind them. But they completely omit the dangerousness of unrattled crosses. It's not enough to keep your man out wide, if he attempts to cross you have to get in and make sure it's a dodgy delivery, but it's always seemingly half hearted at Arsenal. Really staggering.

The first Soton goal is actually ridiculous to look at. When Taggert receives the ball it looks all good and well but you could do a frame for frame analysis of how they **** it up and how the back 3 is anything but organized.

Look at that pic. Look how far off Bellerin is of the crosser. 1.5 meters or something. No pressure whatsoever and he was never more close in that whole play and he also didn't just arrive from a sprint back - he's been with him all the time. Lichtsteiner is like a random figure in there which speaks to the failure of using a back 3 in that match. He's virtually useless cause Soton only have one player in the box anyway. Moments before that Bellerin keeps checking his back to keep track of runners which is useless as in that back 3 he's got Lichtsteiner to cover that so it's a waste of perception of the ball carrier - speaks volumes to the back 3 not being ingrained properly. But back to the initial thing. The Soton player can cross without any pressure, and then though there's two players tracking Ings, they get so fixated on the ball they loose track of the striker. ****ing horrible defending.

 

[Sapient Hawk]

Can’t see Kroenke spending £70m on a CB. We’re not in that league.

Neither are Liverpool mind you. They just happened to have a flair player who was designated as "Flavor of The Month" by Barca. His sale allowed Liverpool to shell out record fees for both Van Dijk & Alisson.

We have no one (save the phenomenal Torreira) worth a 3 digit price tag.

Having said that, much like how Torreira was unearthed at a,relatively paltry £ 26 mm, there is value to be found in the market.

Hopefully we unearth the next £75 mm defender before needing to pay extortionist prices to secure one.

 

[Makingtrax]

Neither are Liverpool mind you.

Yes, they’ve just spent £70m on a CB and £60m on a keeper and £60m on a midfielder.

In contrast we spent £16m on a CB, £25m on a keeper and £30m on a midfielder. As you say finding value in the market is our only way forward. Spending 5th is not easy for a manager when your fans are baying for bigger trophies than the FA Cups Wenger kept delivering.

 

[Manberg]

I think people are disappointed because finishing behind Sp**s and in the Europa league positions yet again is looking like a possible reality.
We cannot be in the europa league again we will find it harder and harder to get back in the Champions league.

 

[Sapient Hawk]

Yes, they’ve just spent £70m on a CB and £60m on a keeper and £60m on a midfielder.

In contrast we spent £16m on a CB, £25m on a keeper and £30m on a midfielder. As you say finding value in the market is our only way forward. Spending 5th is not easy for a manager when your fans are baying for bigger trophies than the FA Cups Wenger kept delivering.

Well said, which is why we must manage our expectations & aspire to return to the pinnacle at an ordered yet realistic pace.

It can be done & I hope Emery is the man to do it here, given he is provided with the proper "tools & talent" of course.