PL: Wolves vs Arsenal | 07/02/04

[reggiepaul]

hehe

I have no problem changing my opinion - because I will be changing my opinion to become, right. right?

In this case I'm more so right. I appreciate your view but also enforce with a more intelligent "wengerfied" multi-developmental view. A look in to the future to the point of giving players as well as those around him - a chance to get used to different players in different position. Speed-dating for football teams. It is just so Wenger written all over it - building players up in not so usual positions.

Wenger doesn't come across as the immediate "oh ****, let's play Lauren but give him cover for experience" type. Although it is a consequence with Gilberto around - not an immediate Wenger one.

 

[Exiled In Newcastle]

Man you got more waffle than the all american waffle company on a busy week. And you're still wrong (or maybe you'd prefer 'not right yet').

 

[reggiepaul]

Well you wanted a debate - I reinforced my "right" view.

 

[Exiled In Newcastle]

No. You're close to the idea, but not quite there yet. To continue to debate your point you have to have some kind of credible argument. Not the same wrong argument repeated.

 

[reggiepaul]

lol - whatever man. I can't see Wenger doing what you said. It's weird and not really as wonderful. Laurens quality as a right back, it's not nursery for right backs. Otherwise he'd play Kolo there if he didn't think a player was good enough - that's been the feasible Wenger ideal. Your view is like something out of eastenders, Arthur Fowler wasn't feeling well so they go Pat Butcher to look after him - slightly sensationalist but in an american dynasty way.

While, what I state is Wenger written all over it. Putting players in different positions to get them to work better. It aint soap opera mate, it's Arsène Wenger school of football and he doesn't play weak teams.

My arguments credible - Wenger's been doing this for years. You just like to do this now and again, don't you exiled. Yawn - Bed.

 

[Exiled In Newcastle]

Eastenders? Arthur Fowler? Pat Butcher? Dynasty?

 

[reggiepaul]

Gilberto? Covering for Lauren? When we can play Kolo there?

You must be having a laugh.

It aint a soap opera - it's Arsène Wenger managing Arsenal. Understand or give up trying.

 

[Exiled In Newcastle]

Meanwhile in the real world Kolo is a centre half and Ralph is the first choice right back. And since he's come back it's gone rough for him but he's wenger's first choice. So in a game he can afford to he puts a bit of padding in front of his first choice to up his confidence. To you rocket science, to Arsène and myself logic.

 

[reggiepaul]

Nyah that's silly. Arsène sticks people all over and Kolo plays an impressive right back - why play someone if you think they are weak, shift another player from their position to cover him.

Exiled you talk about first choice positions but you are putting another player elsewhere, out of position to justify your argument - you contradict yourself because of Gilberto. Trust me I don't think the complications of this hit you perfectly and you lose the grip. You can't talk about actual positions by justifying another player being out of position. That's not logical from your viewpoint. A contradiction.

Ask Arsène why he buys players and puts them elsewhere. Ask Arsène why he places Kolo, right-back, center half and also up front. In Arsenes book there is no first choice - just what works and you totally highlight how you miss that point.

Go to bed man. Somewhere along the line you missed out Wenger buys players for versatility. Now explain the whole Gilberto justification you gave for yourself. It's getting far too late. To add to which, your explanation for cover is an age old thing in football - it's not a wenger thing. Every manager in the premiership provides cover for players - our team cover each other on the field as well. It's nothing new.

What I state is Wenger - if you deny that, then counter argue it which you haven't done but I have done for you. You talk about credibility but you haven't credibly counter argued me.

Call it waffle, call it what you like, but explain your contradiction, counter argue me and also explain why Wenger prefers versatility. Many things wrong with what you say. Your view that I can't come back with an answer is premature. Plenty of ways to work around a very very simply and unimaginative view of "cover" in football.

This is Wenger - understand he plays a counter attacking total football game which is not in the view of a defensive cover of and leaving a player to do little else. More dimensions to that.

I think I missed out when I thought you would understand this but I doubt you can. Your view is highly simplistic and light years away from what Wenger states. You deem it an appreciation of rocket science. In fact you need to look a little deeper yourself. Look at Italian football of the seventies and eighties and Germa football of that era too and Michel Platini more than anyone else. Maybe then you will grasp it all.

Maybe...

 

[Exiled In Newcastle]

You may see my views as simplistic, but yours are pure fantasy. You reckon that Gilberto was played there to get experience of playing on the right wing, what utter tosh. That is your reason for him being played there, and it's just plain daft. You're not capable of debating a point because as soon as it's shown how ridiculous your opinion is you just say the same thing with more words. And you're not very good at sarcasm either.

 

[Sammer]

....and I already thought, that this vivid exchange of ideas was over with reggie´s last statement. ;D

 

[lewdikris]

Playing right wing is not something Gilberto can do. And I don't really think Wenger wanted him to play as a right winger. Being out there is only going to stifle his game, not enhance it.

Wenger himself said that he wanted Pires to play with absolute freedom across the park, with the three other midfielders providing a solid base to allow him to do this.

First half - it didn't work, so Gilberto was getting dragged out wider than he needed to be, rendering him ineffective. Bobby was pretty much trapped on the left wing first half: the gameplan wasn't working.

Seconf half: bingo. Plan worked. Pires was all over the place, Edu and Vieira drove forward, Gilberto tucked in.

None of this was about giving Gilberto experience of anything - but about a tactical gameplan. One which Wenger has used before.

Quite simply, when Freddie's out, we have no tactical option but to play 3 across central midfield, and let Bobby shoulder the creative burden.

O, and Kolo and Cygan have both played wildly out of position, not to improve them as players, but because those games were already won, and we were short of experienced options on the bench.

Football management really isn't as complicated as all that.... :?

 

[Adam]

Ljungberg has increasingly been seen to defensively tuck in games away from home - perhaps a lesson learnt, and related to Tony Adams assertions of not being able to play both Ljungberg and Pires away from home.

And... when you think hard about it - our best away performances have come with one in the team, and without the other. This is still debateable though, and even as i speak it - i am not sure on it.

Gilberto was basicly an adapted replacement for Freddie, so not much different from Ljungbergs away role and he was asked to replicate the goal threat of Ljungberg with an occasional burst and support of attack (seen with some of goals and best chances). The differences were in player abillities, but not role.

Wenger wanted him to tuck in and support up front with bursts. Primarily what Freddie has been doing away from home of late.

When a player is missing - you try to replicate what he would bring to Wengerball sometimes. So in that sense - Reggie is right. It's not that Wenger is considering a new position for our Gilbert!

It's a bit of both - a tactical game plan because Gilberto will provide solidity in a tucked in midfield 3, but to also bring the occasional support of Ljungberg so our Wengerball would not suffer.

 

[Andrew]

I don't think Gilberto will ever be used at right back. Toure is the cover for right back, and Cygan is the cover for Toure. Gilberto is also a permanent fixture in the team so I don't think we'll see him moving positions too much. Yesterday was the first time he played in right midfield and he was used there because a) Pires is more effective on the left with a free role, b) Parlour and Reyes had played a full 90 in the last match and c) it was in the midfield and not too much of change for him. Any talk of Gilberto playing at right back, it's just not going to happen. Gilberto's best position is protecting the defenders. What he does best is cancelling out runs, his tackling isn't too good, nor is his attacking play, so right back just isn't the position for him IMO.

 

[Exiled In Newcastle]

Andrew - I think you misunderstand. No one's suggesting Poly for right back.

 

[tbbosa]

And nothing of this makes sense to me
What a heck we won the game...Gilberto can play goal keeper next time and henry plays cetre beck...who give a ****? what matters is to win!!

Though am not sure a bout that Henry one..LOL :wink: :wink:

 

[reggiepaul]

You may see my views as simplistic, but yours are pure fantasy. You reckon that Gilberto was played there to get experience of playing on the right wing, what utter tosh. That is your reason for him being played there, and it's just plain daft. You're not capable of debating a point because as soon as it's shown how ridiculous your opinion is you just say the same thing with more words. And you're not very good at sarcasm either.

I can't see views of gaining experience to someone in a position as fantasy. How else can a player improve his game in a position without him actually playing in that area.

Options on the day for right and competent ones at that would have been Parlour. He has played right wing and EVERYONE comments on how well he tracks back and gives cover to the defence - now in this way we could have had a proven, experienced right winger on the field and instead of giving Parlour a rest, we give Gilberto a rest until Tuesday - because that was the overlying sentiment towards Parlour being on the bench.

Then there is the contradiction. You talk about first choice positional players. Wenger never uses first choice players. You talk about Lauren being a first choice right back and then you state Kolo is not meant to play there. Personally, I think when it comes to the situation - Kolo will play everywhere. Position is just a silly tactical notion that has only come about over the past 15 years or so and most managers will compensate a player in different positions.

Yet - what I find mostly hilariour is your "You reckon that Gilberto was played there to get experience of playing on the right wing, what utter tosh. That is your reason for him being played there, and it's just plain daft." Now this is funny. It goes along the lines of your excessive posts related to Verbosity and Waffle. What are you talking about? You should really take a leaf out of your own book and argue and debate credibly. Counter argue me with WHY that wouldn't occur - not responses like :

"wenger doesn't do that"

or

"you're just stupid"

Do you really think that would stand in a debate? Since you talk about debates a lot. I told you it's a natural consequence of any footballing situation - it goes without being said that players will cover other players. Pires covers for other players - our players stand around each other trying to regain posession and then helping in counter attack - hell every team in every country in every part of the world will do this and it goes without being said THAT, players cover players. That's just a fact of life.

When Ljungberg plays right midfield, he will cover for the rightback and the same goes for everyone. So Wenger will not, no manager will send out a player and say, cover him, because no manager will insult a players intelligence to which a player would state "would you like me to run towards the ball as well?" - it's such an obvious factor in football, it's so simple, it's funny.

Yet, the most crucial factor in all this is - Gilberto played a whole game in a position he never usually plays and has hardly every played, other than, when we are playing our game of shifting moving and utilising space - Gilberto usually drifts more left than right and lets look at Wenger more carefully, doesn't he love versatility. Doeesn't he play his players all over the pitch. Aren't we as Arsenal fans capable of realising this as something as simplistic rather than complicated BECAUSE this is something Wenger does all the times.

Gilbertos choice at right back was born of nothing more than create experience. He wasn't really the best player for the position but he did pick up his game in the second half. I thought he did pretty well during the game and gained a few balls meaning he was played there for experience to be capable all over the pitch which is what Wenger expects from his players and something that he wanted to improve in Gilbertos game.

You talk about incapability of debating a point but what exactly are you trying to do? You turn this thing in to a soap opera by not listening or reading what someone says, not trying to disprove what someone is saying. When have you disproved what I said - the most you have said is :

"Wenger doesn't do that"

and

"You're stupid"

Now how is that debating? It isn't and your attempts at this is where you blatantly fail and of course my opinion will be the same thing over and over again, but not with more words. I personally give more emphasis and opinion to my already existing opinion. You're just bitter and spiteful and your love of dramatising the situation is just highlighted in your disregard for someones opinion. You say I don't agree when all your whole argument exists upon is something that every footballer does anyway.

Do you expect a footballer to use an excuse after the game "sorry I wasn't told to give you cover" - every footballer gives cover. It's so obvious that it never needs to be said.

Now back to the point, Wenger develops and motivates and inspires players all over the pitch. People talk about managers shouldn't play players in none-too obscure positions but this is how Wenger has developed his team.

Let's go back to the Gilberto idea. A perfect midfield field but more focussed in the center but on many occassions he has played an excellent game alongside Fred, Pires, Henry as well in a counter attacking run. How can you improve that? Simply (note the word simply, not complicated) by giving him experience on the right side of the field. He has already established his presence in attacking runs alongside arguably the best attacking unit the world has today but his role in that area is central- you develop it (as wenger develops players for the hole, attack or the wings) by putting him there as part of an attacking unit (whether positional, making runs, interfering with the oppossitions defence) to exploit whatever occurs to gain a goal scoring chance.

It's so brutally simplistic for an Arsenal fan, it's amazing because WE are spoilt to watch such beautiful football and expertly developed notions of old school, Spanish, Italian, French, Braziland and German tactics all merged in to one collective 90 minutes of entertainment the ticket price is beyond a bargain.

Now if you can't grasp the notion between what Wenger does and what a pub football manager has to explain to his team about cover - hell realise why we're so beautiful to watch and it isn't about the players legs. Reyes was bought for a reason. He hasn't been amazing for no reason lately.

 

[reggiepaul]

Playing right wing is not something Gilberto can do. And I don't really think Wenger wanted him to play as a right winger. Being out there is only going to stifle his game, not enhance it.

He's a footballer not a traffic warden placed in a underwater marine hunt for diamonds. It will improve his game the more he plays, especially out of position. He is already part of our attacking runs, giving him the wing options gives his game more creativity as well as confidence to operate as a supplement for them.

Wenger himself said that he wanted Pires to play with absolute freedom across the park, with the three other midfielders providing a solid base to allow him to do this.

So by this logic the rest just stand there and do nothing? This ideal doesn't immediately remove any notion that Gilberto stops playing as a wing player - he played wing and there is a reason he is there. No manager would remove a player out of an equation when he operates a counter attacking team.

First half - it didn't work, so Gilberto was getting dragged out wider than he needed to be, rendering him ineffective. Bobby was pretty much trapped on the left wing first half: the gameplan wasn't working.

Seconf half: bingo. Plan worked. Pires was all over the place, Edu and Vieira drove forward, Gilberto tucked in.

None of this was about giving Gilberto experience of anything - but about a tactical gameplan. One which Wenger has used before.

Quite simply, when Freddie's out, we have no tactical option but to play 3 across central midfield, and let Bobby shoulder the creative burden.

O, and Kolo and Cygan have both played wildly out of position, not to improve them as players, but because those games were already won, and we were short of experienced options on the bench.

Football management really isn't as complicated as all that.... :?

It practically worked all the way through the game. Your notions revolves around the belief, we scored goals - it worked. Wanderers haven't lost at home since September. It was blatantly to gain experience there. Gilberto - after arriving was given more and more defensive roles while lately he has been pushing more and more upfield - then he is played wing. Now, Wenger has said himself he wants Gilberto to play further upfield and what way to develop that role, instead of centrally but on the right. Hell why not play Parlour instead and give Gilberto the central rest (ok, lets talk positional) for the Southampton game. That - would work for your view of things, not how things developed. Parlour would have added a more experienced cover against a team that gives most of the best teams problems at home. No - he played Gilberto.

It's simple Lewd, not complicated. Watching Arsenal week in week out, this factor should become massively obvious but I seem to realise it's not the case. We are spoilt for a reason and that's because we adopt the most unique and entertaining style of football which is directly born of playing players well out of position and giving them different roles away from what they are used to. That's the Arsenal way and it works and if we need to improve it and I thought Gilberto did well - hell that's great. It's become so simplistic and so greatly improves the entertainment of the game you realise how blatantly dull and bland watching a game on football is because you can't see what the players off the ball are doing which is important all the way through the game.

If you think it's cover - no, every footballer does that from grass roots to champions league final. It's part and parcel of the game and I don't think any manager sends out players giving instructions just to cover. Wenger develops and enhances players.

 

[lewdikris]

I didn't say any of the things you just said i said.

4-3-1-2 is a perfectly valid formation - it's also the one we were attempting to play, as we have done before, Lokomotiv Moscow away being a prime example.

I never said Gilberto was there just to cover. Not once. I said he was part of the unit of three trying to dominate possession in the midfield, providing a platform for Pires, Henry and Bergy (then Reyes) to lead the attack. Gilberto, Edu and Paddy were there to support those attacks. That's how that formation works.

Try watching Chelsea, it's what they do. Or Juventus.

Say Gilberto was there as a winger and you're suggesting that the formation we were playing was something other than it was. It's also vaguely disrespectful to Wolves, who played very well first half, and stopped us from successfully adopting the tactic we tried to play.

All credit to them. The Moscow match was the last time we really tried this formation - it wasn't entirely successful then, for the first half saturday it wasn't entirely successful either. Second half, it clicked: three points in the bag.

 

[reggiepaul]

Not that I disagree with any of that but try highlighting your opinion is different other than siding with someone and having a totally different view altogether. Also, I never said anythign of the things you just said either. It seems you jumped in to this conversation without really countering to anyone at all so it makes me wonder who exactly you were responding to. I don't really think you're responding to me either as I haven't even looked in to the possibility of a 4-3-2-1 formation - which is not what we played during the game at all. Yes, you never said Gilberto was there for cover but then you also didn't really highlight exactly what you were trying to say as you have said now. Meaning you jumped in, said some things about complicated and simplicity, said some other things leaving peopel to wonder exactly where and how you were coming - until now.

Your view is totally different - but we don't do defensive, even when counter attacking.

It was more like 4-2-3-1 - two wingers (pires, gilberto) Bergs middle and Henry up front. Makes me wonder if you were at the game.

Your view is different but doesn't remove the counter attacking substance that Arsenal has. That will always be there no matter what. Wolves stopped us from playing, true but that doesn't mean it was the formation you present because not for one second were Arsenal defensive or playing so many players at the back - it was blatantly attacking with Edu being up front as much as Gilberto was.

You talk about the formation being other than something it was - makes me wonder why Wenger would put a player on the wing to start off with and then tell him to drop back - why not put him there positionally. Hell even Pat was upfield during the game as well - the ultimate point is, formation is always thrown out of the window but a bigger point is - Arsenal don't play defensive formations as is the case - Henry being a major reasoning to this and utilising wing players the other.

Thought it was always successful but you can't discredit wolves position and their dominance at home. I think the difference for us occurred with Reyes entering the field and giving that added dominance at the other end of the field. Bergs was always on fire but he was operating on the hole as well as driving forward for once too.

Granted the formation is a possibility but not 3 in front of defence. That's not how we play.

This gets tired, it makes you wonder if someone can have an opinion without any notions of superiority and grand authority of disagreement being showered on you from all corners of some docile numerical superiority.

Come on - the good things you all have different views, the bad thing it's all from different corners and not well presented.