Players 'carrying' Arsenal

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by krackpot, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    The Özil thread made me think about which players have actually carried AFC single-handed. I could only come up with three:
    Code:
    0. Henry (GOAT):  71 games, 63 goals, 26 assists
    1. RvP:           70 games, 60 goals, 24 assists, ~20MotM
    2. Cesc:          70 games, 23 goals, 30 assists, ~14 MotM
    
    Honorable mentions
    3. Alexis (Özil/Caz): 98 games, 53 goals, 24 assists, ~24 MotM
    4. PE Aubameyang:     54 games, 40 goals, 9 assists, ~8 MotM
    5. Ramsey (2013/14):  20 games, 10 goals, 8 assists, ~6 MotM
    
    Özil (Why not?):     76 games, 17 goals, 17 assists, ~8 MotM
    Cazorla:             78 games, 11 goals, 22 assists, ~8 MotM
    
    Vieira: 77 games, 12 goals
    Arteta: 90 games, 14 goals
    Only 'modern' player coming anywhere near carrying Arsenal was Alexis, and he had huge help from OG, Cazorla and Özil.

    Which players come to you guys' mind?
     
  2. Jury

    Jury Mission Accomplished

    Tbh mate, I always thought saying a player was ‘carrying us’ was just acknowledging they were very important to us during any given period. They always need others to shine. Sometimes you can’t even notice the player that’s actually the most important, hence the term ‘unsung hero’; guys that make it work without it being obvious to the eye. Product v Influence... Roy Keane would say ‘they’re only doing their job’... Makes me think a lot of this bunch should be on the dole.
     
  3. Ceballinhos

    Ceballinhos Cheating on Santi

    Cesc is the one I can really say he was carrying us.
    It wasn't just resultwise unlike RVP & Henry because they're both top class strikers.
    Cesc sometimes single handedly made us play attractive football.

    Our talented players in the squad were all injury prone. Rosicky, RVP, they were out all the time.

    Cesc was a real maestro, and we played a very attractive football even though the front 3 was Walcott / Bendtner / Eboué.

    That's why I've never liked the excuses fans were giving to Özil "hE NeEdS RuNnErS" "hE nEeDs a ToP StrIker".
    Cesc was great no matter what, when he was playing with RVP/Hleb/Adebayor/Rosicky, and even when his team mates were Denilson Eboué Bendtner.

    ofc we haven't won with cesc being our leader, because the team around him was not good enough and our best players were injury prone, we had no bench.
    he was easily shut down by man utd chelsea and such because he was the only big threat we had most of the time.

    but we've never played as good as when cesc was our main guy since he left.

    what a shame it is that we couldn't build a true contender team around him. we were close...
     
  4. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    Cesc not winning a Premier League or Champions League during his time here is so unfair considering the work in put in, if you look at Cesc’s peak here 2004-2010 he was phenomenal...the 2006 team deserved a Champions League, and he was close to a league title in 2005 and 2008...glad he won an FA cup here, but it’s kinda a shame that was his highest honour here...he also sort ruined young players for me, he came in at 17 and was perfect immediately, madness when you think about it!
     
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  5. Ceballinhos

    Ceballinhos Cheating on Santi

    I agree.
    My second regret about cesc is that we ruined him by overplaying him at such a young age.
    That's why he's aged so badly imo.
    We couldn't afford to take care of him and manage him. We had no other choice but to play him.
    I remember this one game against Aston Villa, he was coming back from an injury, sitting on the bench. He came on in the 2nd half, scored 2 goals, we won 3 nils, and has injured himself during the 2nd goal.

    It reminds me a bit of Torres at Liverpool. They needed him so bad that they never let his knee fully heal until he was never the same player he was before.

    The same can be said about wilshere too. we overplayed him during his first year he picked up a nasty injury, he's never been the same player he was.
     
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  6. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    Cesc at 17 played like a 27 year old, but Cesc at 30 played like he was 50!

    We should have tried to keep Edu around post 2005, as we there was too much pressure on Fab to stay fit after Paddy left.
     
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  7. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    yeah, quite right. But those were legendary teams.

    take Keane out of that squad, it would still function because of Giggs, Cantona, Scholes, and the West Indian striker (Cole?). Which is probably why he is a lot more humble.

    Henry's record is so astonishing, but take him out and they would still be up there, nowhere near as dangerous, but they would still have someone like a Reyes or Anelka.

    Cesc failed because his teammates were bad....Özil failed because he is ****?
     
  8. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    Özil has won the World Cup with Germany and La Liga with Real Madrid, both as a starter...he's clearly a top player looking at his career...Cesc is more of a controller of a game (like Santi was too) whereas Mesut is more of a cherry on the finished cake kinda guy (when Santi was fit to play with Mesut, we collected more points that any other team in the year of 2015) would have been interesting if Fab and Özil played in the same team at their peaks.
     
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  9. Ceballinhos

    Ceballinhos Cheating on Santi

    Cesc hasn't failed at Arsenal. He looked like one of the best player in the League every season he's played for us. He could have been a starter in every single PL team.

    Özil at Arsenal has never made a full season where he looked like he was unplayable or even the best performer in our team weeks in and weeks out. I've never seen fans from other teams wanting him as much as they were with Cesc.
    Özil has never been in the discussion of the top 5 players in the league.

    Özil has failed to be the "go to guy" at Arsenal like Cesc was.

    Cesc has never been as divisive as Özil. Everybody was recognizing his greatness. from fans to pundits.

    Cesc was one of the most wanted young midfielder back then. Every big club was following him and has tried to get him.
    Whereas nobody wants to invest huge money on Özil anymore. Even before the 350k/week.

    I don't think Özil would have been able to perform as well when he had to play with Eboué Bendtner Walcott. He's already struggling with much better players.

    It's not even a dig at Özil. He's a great player with a great career. I just wanted to say that peak cesc is able to carry a team and make it competitive. Özil can't. What made Cesc so great was his impact on our game, no matter who he has played with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  10. Big Poppa

    Big Poppa Well-Known Member Trusted

    I might be alone on this but bear with me.

    Patrick Vieira was the most important player of the last 20 years - the only reason you can't say he carried us is because while he was here, there were world class players in other positions too. But he's been the hardest to replace.

    Thierry Henry between 2005-2006 and RvP 2011-2012 mainly because they played with declining or sub par team mates, but also because you knew that any chance they'd get, was a goal.

    I don't agree with Cesc.

    His influence was different. He was a catalyst for an evolution in our style of play and became something of a cult hero as he was a bit of a prick to our rivals too. Spanish players were not known for adapting to English football. Again, he was the first of his kind here (La Liga and Serie A had produced players like him on a conveyer belt).

    Whether folks will admit it or not though, one of the biggest reasons why we declined as a title challenger was Wenger failing to replace Vieira and instead choosing to build a team around Cesc

    As a teenager, he was among the elite in world football. But he wasn't ready to carry ****. Even though he added goals and exploded into more of a box to box role in the 2007/8 season when him, Flamini, Hleb and Rosicky developed great midfield chemistry, we were still well short of what was needed to go to the next level with him.
     
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  11. pigge

    pigge Well-Known Member

    Fabregas for me. I started supporting in 2007 ish. So dont know before that but, cant forget him getting subbed on vs Aston villa even though him being injured. Scoring two goals and limping off subbed after. Man hade like 20 assist and 20 goals at one point.
     
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  12. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    I've never doubted Cesc. Unfortunately, he will be more remembered in Spain for Barca/NT. Özil has had the same sort of teammates, and has won more medals.

    But Özil never carried us until now.

    Vieira stepped up when needed the most. I remember France was failing to qualify until Vieira scored once or twice to pull them through.

    Same with his AFC performances, he stepped up when nobody else did.
     
  13. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    When Cesc had quality players around him, we finished 2nd after our Invincible season to a also great Chelsea side in 04-05, then he was a key player in the team that reached the 2006 Champions League final...from 06-07 onwards we dropped to a 3rd/4th place team who were outsiders for the Champions League, you can’t put that on Fab...the 07-08 season was the only one after 2006 that we had a very decent chance of winning the league, but even then the United team we were up against was significantly better all round than ours, so we were still underdogs...it was failing to replace Sol Campbell that really hampered us between 2006-2011, Cesc did all anyone could have done during this period...plus Cesc was arguably Chelsea’s best player with Hazard in their 14-15 title win, so he can win if the team is right which we didn’t really have when we moved to the Emirates.
     
  14. Ceballinhos

    Ceballinhos Cheating on Santi

    I don't agree at all with this statement.
    I'm not saying Cesc is better than Vieira, but building around cesc was not the mistake. It was the obvious choice to make.
    Wenger has failed to build a competitive team around him that can stay healthy.
    We couldn't have won anything with Vieira instead of Cesc if the players around were the same.
    Vieira was able to win at Arsenal because he played with very good/top players, who could stay fit.

    We never had the chance to have both Cesc & RVP fit and firing for a whole season.
    The only full season we got from RVP is the year after Cesc left!
    We had to compete with stacked & experienced teams.

    We could compete with any team in the league in 2007/2008 when our players were fit. Things went to **** when injuries have started to happen, RVP Rosicky couldn't stay fit. Eduardo had a terrible injury. Our bench was weak.
    And cesc was by far the most important player in this team.

    Wenger has said in his press conference that he didn't want to buy Yaya Touré & Xabi Alonso when both were available and affordable, even for us. He thought bringing these 2 players in would kill Diaby/Denilson/Song.
    It was before the market got crazy and we could have gotten them for less than 20M.
    Benitez wanted to replace Xabi with Gareth Barry. Then Xabi has stayed, and he had his best season ever at Liverpool, and earned his move to Real.
    Yaya Touré was available because Pep went with Busquets, his agent was saying he would like to play for Arsenal. We have refused to sign him.
    A few months later City signs him and he torn the league appart.


    We have also refused to sign David Villa, which was one of Cesc best friend, when he was available and affordable for our club. Before Barça got him.

    We trusted our players too much, even though they were flawed/always injured.

    I mean, yeah, it's obvious. You can't win the league if a teenager has to carry you every week and the players around are not good enough.

    But let's not downplay his impact at Arsenal, even though we haven't won with him.
    There aren't a lot of midfielders of his age in the history who had such impact and had to carry such a load.
     
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  15. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    Would have Vieira as our best ever player during the Arsène era, no other midfielder was as good offensively and defensively as him in premier league history bar Roy Keane imo.
     
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  16. Dennis_Bergkamp_10

    Dennis_Bergkamp_10 Well-Known Member

    Cesc of course.. but I also remember RvP fondly. We had to rest him from time to time, like Stoke City at home in 2011-12 I think. We were losing 0-1, brought our captain on and he won the game for us.
     
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  17. yousif_arsenal

    yousif_arsenal King of Twitter Rumours Moderator

    Big players carry thier team in every sport there nothing with that.

    I think Cesc considering how young he is done amazing job that time
     
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  18. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    Alexis Sanchez...preferred him in 14-15, think there was more pressure on him in 16-17 though, as in 14-15 we had a better all round team.
     
  19. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    His numbers are astonishing but the connection wasn't quite there, neither did he influence our style in any way.

    RVP did the numbers and let us play with our signature style.

    Aubameyang is a similar story to Alexis but the difference with him is that he makes all the right noises
     
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  20. Riou

    Riou Nostalgia Merchant

    He was a “messy” footballer Sanchez, to get the best out of him you had to allow some roughness around the edges of your team, think that’s why he gelled so well with Özil as their contrasting styles really went well together...some of the football we played with those two, and Santi, was amazing...Van Persie was one of the most skilful players we have had, he was perfect style wise, he was better than Sanchez...but Sanchez was a significantly better footballer than Auba imo.
     
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