UCL - Arsenal Vs Schalke - 24/10/12 19:45PM SS4

[Bossa]

The team is crap. Coquelin, Metsacker, Jenks and Gnabry are the only ones fit to wear the shirt. The rest can f*** off. As for our joke captain what ever happened to the Verminator? All I see is a mouse.

Lets give Podolski, Arteta, Cazorla and the benefit of the doubt. They have been immense for us.

Gnabry is a huge talent but he still need to wait a few years. He lost the ball countless of times in that short cameo.

 

[marv3llous]

All we do is knock it around and wait for someone to **** it up. No-one runs beyond the ball, everyone just jogs around and wants it to feet. To feet to feet to feet. There's no width, no-one takes a shot, nobody works for the shirt.

That is exactly how i feel about our gameplay atm. Noone is able or maybe even not allowed to carry the ball forward. All we do is pass-pass-pass and since we are no Barcelona and we often counter much tougher opponents physically then sooner or later "a ramsey" will mess up the pass and lose the ball.

And Wenger keeps banging on about 'technically excellent' players. Give me a break. Gervinho and a ball are two completely separate entities. When running he has no control over it, he just knocks it in the general direction he wants to go and hope he is faster than the opponent. Ramsey is simply a clumsy oaf with the ball. He cant dribble or speed past anyone, he cant cross, he cant play it short. Useless.

 

[evoh_1]

Hate to say it as i don't like him particularly but we have been terrible since Diaby got injured.

That tells you the role he must have in Wenger's plan for how this team work and a key to it working well, not sure that is ideal fora guy who has had 30+ injuries over his arsenal career.

 

[Coypus]

The team is crap. Coquelin, Metsacker, Jenks and Gnabry are the only ones fit to wear the shirt. The rest can f*** off. As for our joke captain what ever happened to the Verminator? All I see is a mouse.

Lets give Podolski, Arteta, Cazorla and the benefit of the doubt. They have been immense for us.

Gnabry is a huge talent but he still need to wait a few years. He lost the ball countless of times in that short cameo.

Podolski hides, Carzola hides yet these are seasoned pro's. Arteta was never Arsenal class and vanishes like against Norwich. Gnabry tried to move us forward which even when it failed (face it the match was well lost) was a refreshing change from playing square balls forever (like Arteta).

Players need to stand up and be counted only Coq, Met, Jenks and Gnabry did so the rest like I said can f*** off I would rather play the kids and go down trying

 

[jones]

What is it with you and Strawman arguments? I wasn't talking about league position, I was talking about a single game. Top talents often win you individual games that you didn't deserve to win.

And you can bet your house that Messi would have made this game different through fear factor alone. Messi would do more than our front three combined tonight, and that half a yard for the other two players in the front line could be put to good use, too.

Strawman argument? How about you give me a decent argument why we've lost so many games with all those quality players in our side at once? You're saying Santi isn't good enough to drag us through games like these, but RVP and Cesc are - then how come we've lost so many "single games" (which, accumulated, end up as a season) with their quality in the side?

Also, what is it with you always understanding posts the way that it suits you, instead of just reading what it says? I haven't said that Messi wouldn't have "made this game different", I referred to your "player X pulling us through" argument, which just doesn't work like this, even a player like Messi couldn't have made a difference since the team as a whole/too many players at once was/were bad today.

We've seen Messi in the past lose games with a full strength Barcelona to teams like Hercules Alicante, Osasuna or Getafe, because their whole team was sub-par, while their opponents were up to it. There are lots of occasions where a great player makes the difference, even when his team is struggling, but there are countless examples where even the world's best players couldn't make up for the team's shortcomings.

Good lord, conversations with you are always so exhausting.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

What is it with you and Strawman arguments? I wasn't talking about league position, I was talking about a single game. Top talents often win you individual games that you didn't deserve to win.

And you can bet your house that Messi would have made this game different through fear factor alone. Messi would do more than our front three combined tonight, and that half a yard for the other two players in the front line could be put to good use, too.

Strawman argument? How about you give me a decent argument why we've lost so many games with all those quality players in our side at once? You're saying Santi isn't good enough to drag us through games like these, but RVP and Cesc are - then how come we've lost so many "single games" (which, accumulated, end up as a season) with their quality in the side?

Please quote where I said it was impossible to lose with quality players? If not, your argument is moot and indeed a strawman, as you are misrepresenting my initial point in order to "beat me" or whatever. Overall squad quality wins titles, outstanding individual quality wins games you don't deserve to win. Subtle but important difference. Messi at Stoke might win them the odd game on his own, but there's only so far he can take them in a league season without surrounding squad quality.

Also, what is it with you always understanding posts the way that it suits you, instead of just reading what it says? I haven't said that Messi wouldn't have "made this game different", I referred to your "player X pulling us through" argument, which just doesn't work like this, even a player like Messi couldn't have made a difference since the team as a whole/too many players at once was/were bad today.

You are picking this argument with me. If you don't want to, then just don't bother - I won't miss it.

The point is that outstanding quality changes the game by its presence alone. Tactics change, personnel are brought in and the game is played differently. Messi would have forced the Schalke team to defend differently as he is actually able to beat players, finish and create. All things we couldn't do for **** tonight.

We've seen Messi in the past lose games with a full strength Barcelona to teams like Hercules Alicante, Osasuna or Getafe, because their whole team was sub-par, while their opponents were up to it. There are lots of occasions where a great player makes the difference, even when his team is struggling, but there are countless examples where even the world's best players couldn't make up for the team's shortcomings.

Yes, we have, but we've also seen Barca win a lot of games they shouldn't have because Messi scored a hat-trick all by himself. The kind of thing RvP was doing for us last season regularly, if you remember. That's "outstanding quality", something we now lack, Santi included.

Good lord, conversations with you are always so exhausting.

Then why are you always so insistent on picking arguments with me when you really don't need to?

 

[Anzac]

Lets give Podolski, Arteta, Cazorla and the benefit of the doubt. They have been immense for us.

Gnabry is a huge talent but he still need to wait a few years. He lost the ball countless of times in that short cameo.

Podolski hides, Carzola hides yet these are seasoned pro's. Arteta was never Arsenal class and vanishes like against Norwich. Gnabry tried to move us forward which even when it failed (face it the match was well lost) was a refreshing change from playing square balls forever (like Arteta).

Players need to stand up and be counted only Coq, Met, Jenks and Gnabry did so the rest like I said can f*** off I would rather play the kids and go down trying

Disagree with the comments re Podolski, Cazorla & Arteta & will only say that the team balance/dynamics have changed & forced them into a different role/areas of the pitch by default.

Coq is tidy but ineffective in the B2B role,
Rambo IMO is more suited but tries too much to be too involved which compromises our impetus in attack,
Gnabry has made 2 short cameos.

The kids in general seem to play with more freedom / less fear than we see from the senior squad. I recall the CCup squad with the likes of Vela, Bendtner, Eduardo, Denilson, Rosicky etc playing well enough to spank NUFC & play BETTER than the seniors when exploiting space, pace & movement on & off the ball,
and yet these same players have all 'failed' at senior level.

 

[jones]

Please quote where I said it was impossible to lose with quality players?

This was actually never the topic, but whatever. I was replying to your notion that Santi didn't have the quality that Cesc and RVP had, "dragging us through these games", by saying that they couldn't have done it today either. Read the posts again if you forgot them already.

If not, your argument is moot and indeed a strawman, as you are misrepresenting my initial point in order to "beat me" or whatever.

See, I think here's the problem with our conversations. You seem to think I'm trying to "beat you" - actually, what makes you think like that? It's football banter, this is a place for it, so I'm discussing my and other's opinions about Arsenal with others. I'm not a teenager coming here to get my kicks on "beating" people in a discussion, and even if I were, why would I do that with people supporting the same club as I?

Overall squad quality wins titles, outstanding individual quality wins games you don't deserve to win. Subtle but important difference. Messi at Stoke might win them the odd game on his own, but there's only so far he can take them in a league season without surrounding squad quality.

Yes, that is correct. But here's my main point, how does one decide from which level on outstanding individual quality decides games on its own? Like you just said, Messi might beat us if he played for a relegation side just because he's that good, and the same would be possible for Cesc or RVP, but apparently it is not possible for Santi to do so?

The point is that outstanding quality changes the game by its presence alone. Tactics change, personnel are brought in and the game is played differently. Messi would have forced the Schalke team to defend differently as he is actually able to beat players, finish and create. All things we couldn't do for **** tonight.

Yes, just as Messi forces La Liga teams on the regular to defend differently than to other teams, still every now and then some team comes up that finds a way to beat a team with all of these world class players, because some of them have an off day, even if Messi is still firing.

Yes, we have, but we've also seen Barca win a lot of games they shouldn't have because Messi scored a hat-trick all by himself. The kind of thing RvP was doing for us last season regularly, if you remember. That's "outstanding quality", something we now lack, Santi included.

I think I can comfortably say that I've seen far more games from Santi than you, and that you haven't seen many games of him before he moved to us, otherwise there is no way in hell you'd put out such a statement. Santi was the main reason that Malaga is in the Champions League, without him, they wouldn't even be playing Europa League. There's a reason that he hasn't missed a single game for them last season. There were numerous match-winning performances by him when the whole Malaga team was lackluster, he was creating, similar to Cesc, so that far inferior strikers, similar to Bendtner would even have a hard time to miss the goal.

Then why are you always so insistent on picking arguments with me when you really don't need to?

Well, if you prefer to I can leave it be. I often remark to them because you have viewpoints that differ a little from 90% of the posts on this forum, the thing that makes the discussion frustrating is you misinterpreting everything afterwards.

In that sense, one might say you're very Gervinho like.

 

[VAVAVOOM 14]

At this point in time I'd like to know how it Ramsey is allowed to start game after game?

He has been ineffective in his preferred role as a CM, what do we expect him to do at RM?

Play Arshavin or Gnabry there, I don't care about form or lack of experience, anyone is better than Ramsey at RM.

We play far too slow to create any chances. This team has zero penetration. I really don't how this has happened to this once great club. We've disintegrated to the point of being unrecognizable from just five years ago.

With our current personnel we are destined to endure more empty seasons. I don't even know if we can/will rectify this by next year. Arsenal are rife with average players.

It's time for Wenger to stop mollycoddling his players. He needs to ship out all the deadwood ( which is an exhaustive list).

In the space of 5 days we have produced two of the most uninspiring, insipid displays in our history.

I really hope this serves as a wake up call to our deranged hierarchy. We're receding as a team.

If this carries it truly will spell the death of this club.

 

[Rain Dance]

We'll qualify from this piss easy group. There isn't a better time to rest Cazorla for this game.


Come on, the CL group stages have been a borefest for years now. Our home form in the group stages is impeccable and Schalke aren't these giants you're making them out to be. This game is at home, so the Olympiakos and Montpellier (which we won, by the way) games you speak of are irrelevant. We handle European teams in the group stages easily at the Emirates

3rd in the league you say? Weren't we the ones who made easy work of the Champions of the league they come from last season?

Excuse me for this "arrogance" you speak of. I call it having a bit of faith in this "average" team. One loss to Norwich and you'd swear we're bordering mid table mediocrity by some of the comments I've been reading.

Would you like some tea to go with your humble pie, sir?

 

[VAVAVOOM 14]

It's time to revert back to 4-4-2. This current formation with our phantom striker isn't working at all. It just ends up with our midfield becoming stagnant followed by backwards and lateral passes.

 

[Bossa]

Think that 2nd place is a given now. We wont beat Schalke at their place and I cannot see Olympiakos causing a threat to us.

Lets hope we get Malaga or Porto instead of Real or Barca.

Last year we finished top and we faced Milan the best team out of the 2nd places. Lets hope its the other way around now.

 

[redanddread]

Think that 2nd place is a given now. We wont beat Schalke at their place and I cannot see Olympiakos causing a threat to us.

Lets hope we get Malaga or Porto instead of Real or Barca.

Last year we finished top and we faced Milan the best team out of the 2nd places. Lets hope its the other way around now.

We should still qualify but if it requires a win or a point at Olympiakos on the last day, I'll be as nervous as a hen in a fox house...(or something like that).......

Olympiakos has played us hard at our pad twice and beaten us twice at their abode in the last few years.

 

[VAVAVOOM 14]

We should still qualify but if it requires a win or a point at Olympiakos on the last day, I'll be as nervous as a hen in a fox house...(or something like that).......

Olympiakos has played us hard at our pad twice and beaten us twice at their abode in the last few years.

The only consolation is if it comes to this, we should have a more or less fully fit squad to choose from.

 

[outlaw_member]

We are executing a style of play which is simply beyond the capabilities of most of our players. Only Arteta and Cazorla are natural possession players, and they are a step below the finest in the world. We were sitting deeper, taking more risks and playing relatively direct in the earlier stages of the season, but now we've reverted back to our old ways. I also don't think that Bould has made any impact whatsoever on our defensive tactics, even if he has attempted to drill the team with greater frequency. We are executing the same patterns and shapes as we have done for the past 5 years, only this time with inferior players. Wenger hasn't altered anything at all, and the only variations we witness are usually down to the personnel impacting the style, rather than any strategic decisions.

 

[Bossa]

The staff need to watch how Dortmund and Schalke in lesser extend play football. Our pressing is just so half arsed. We might as well turn ourselves in a counter team. Wenger needs to stop his obsession of copying Barca.

Right now I see a team with no identity and ideas.

 

[Vinci]

I wish Wenger would turn this side into a counter-attacking team. Last night after about 10/15 minutes they flashed a stat on TV, which said we had about 70% possession and like 75 completed passes against Schalke's 15.

Where did this get us? Nowhere. There is no use in having the ball if you have no clue what to do with it.

I think a well drilled counter team is the best shot with this team. Arteta, Cazorla can initiate counter-attacks and we have speed up front and pretty good finishers if we play with Podolski and Walcott.

 

[dpt49]

Wenger needs to stop his obsession of copying Barca.

The only thing we do the same as Barcelona is that we also play with eleven players.
The similarity ends there :wink:

 

[dysphoria]

Wenger needs to stop his obsession of copying Barca.

The only thing we do the same as Barcelona is that we also play with eleven players.
The similarity ends there :wink:

Not sure any team with santos, gervinho and mannone in it add up to 11, maybe about 9.

 

[clockwork orange]

I wish Wenger would turn this side into a counter-attacking team. Last night after about 10/15 minutes they flashed a stat on TV, which said we had about 70% possession and like 75 completed passes against Schalke's 15.

Where did this get us? Nowhere. There is no use in having the ball if you have no clue what to do with it.

I think a well drilled counter team is the best shot with this team. Arteta, Cazorla can initiate counter-attacks and we have speed up front and pretty good finishers if we play with Podolski and Walcott.

Possession (stats) can be a beguiling counterfitter for lack of confidence and/or lack of initiative. In this case possession isn't a positive, like when you're usuing it well, but a negative. Gives opposition time to organise their defense, etc.

Do agree when there's no conifdence, we shouldn't play focussing on possession. Rather go for the more risky pass (with potentially bigger awards) in those cases.