UCL: Porto (A) Wed 17th Feb 19.45 ITV1

[Captain]

They were decent but were only really heavily on top for a spell after the second goal when we were running around like headless chickens. I expect it to be very different at home.

 

[Humble Rex]

My view is that our midfield is crippling us. Last night, for example, we had Denilson and Diaby playing as a 2 in midfield, and although techncially they looked as though they played quite well in parts, when you look a little closer, in so many ways they were absolutely horrific. They have no clue whatsoever when to press, who to press, whether pressing is even the right choice at that moment, it's the same with tracking opponents, they simply do not have a clue. The "invisible", unspectacular side to the game, we as a team are found wanting, but it's the midfield in particular where this is most evident, and most damaging.

Even if we had Gilberto and Mascherano playing it wouldn't matter. Two players simply cannot defend against three at the highest level and certainly not against five if you choose to include the 'assistance' that they are supposed to be giving the fullbacks.

Exactly this. It is so naive from us to actually play this way it´s embarrassing.

 

[Humble Rex]

Every midfield in the world makes alot of mistakes. That's football and is why you shouldn't micro-analyse every detail. It's easier to ignore them when you win but just as a recent example, Scholes and Carrick gave the ball to Ronaldinho allowing him a free run at their central defenders 2-3 times in the first half alone against Milan but they managed to win the game 3-1. I don't really want to talk about mentality and whatever else, I'm just pointing out that even the top teams make mistakes.

What you can question is why we are so easily stretched when one of our players does make a mistake and it's because a number of players, from front to back, aren't concentrating and aren't taking up their correct positions on the pitch to at least stem the tide a little.

You can say that Denilson isn't tracking back but why is the oppositions striker standing free in a 20 yard gap from defence to midfield. Diaby is getting caught square but why when that happens isn't anyone even remotely close enough to put the player carrying the ball under pressure (although to give Song his due, he does try but he can't everywhere by himself).

A large factor, in my opinion, is that we are stretched to the limit by the fact that one of our midfielders is going awol and the wide forwards aren't giving the opposition anything to think about. Too much reactive rather than proactive defending all over the pitch.

There is also an element of stupidity and in this case I'm going to mention something that Cesc does because he is supposed to be our most intelligent player; why on earth does Cesc make a strikers movement when the opposition holding player recieves the ball? 8/10 Cesc will make a run to the opposition goalside of the player as if a top level midfielder is going to make a blind pass back towards his defence. At least give us a chance by putting some proper pressure on the guy receiving the ball. Give himself a chance by being in front of the play rather than behind it.

I mentioned yesterday that I don't like Nasri and Rosicky both playing because even though in theory they do alot more running and do make the occassional tackle, again it is reactive. Neither press, neither stand in particularly good defensive positions and they aren't really asking the opposition any questions with their movement. It goes even further when you then have Arshavin getting bossed all over the place by two blokes twice his size in the middle of the pitch.

Football is a simple game, you don't need world beaters in every position (although that is nice too) and you can't expect even the best players to be perfect in every way but you can expect them to perform their most basic functions on a pitch to a high level.

Throw in some kamikaze goalkeeping and some horrid defending from the back line and these things all start to add up and create situations that are practically impossible to defend against. It's not just the two guys in midfield making a few mistakes here and there that is killing us even if that is the engine room.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that we have played well since VanPersie went down and I would have made him captain ahead of Cesc.

(some of this will be jumbled as I typed it from the hip in the s**t little box at the bottom).

Excellent post.

 

[Captain]

Don't read anymore, that's just about my peak.

 

[Burnwinter]

If we are to go through next game then we have to score more than 3 goals because I can see Porto at least scoring two (one from a counter and one gift wrapped courtesy of Arsenal defence limited).

One goal from one of these sources certainly seems pretty damn likely. In which case we need at least two to force penalties.

If they score twice we're out.

 

[AshburtonGhost]

These repeated defensive bungles are a real worry because our opposition, irrespective of their quality, know they are a good chance to score against us if they attack. We should go through, but I can see Porto trying their luck a few times, particularly as we will be attacking/chasing the tie.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I don't buy the whole 'Cesc isn't good enough for a two man midfield' theory. His partnership with Flamini was superb.

Not a fair assessment. We played 4 in the midfield when Flamini was here, less work to be done defensively with the extra body in there.

That's irrelevant. I might have phrased it incorrectly, but I was responding to those who said Cesc can't play in a 4-4-2 (with a two man central midfield). He did, in 07-08, and he was very successful.

 

[MDGoonah41]

It is relevant though, because it wasn't a two man midfield, it was two central midfielders and two wide midfielders. Cesc is lining up on the right side of a 3 man central midfield now, but he's pushing to the center and pushing high up the pitch. In a 4 man midfield, there were two wide midfielders to help stifle counter attacks, as well as a central midfielder (Flamini in this case) to help cover up for Cesc in the middle. In the current midfield, when Cesc pushes up there are only 2 midfielders to help cover the space, and he leaves the right side of the midfield wide open because he moves centrally with the ball.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Yeah, of course - I don't disagree with any of that. But I think you're misunderstanding me. The only point I'm trying to make is that Cesc can play in a 4-4-2 (with a two man central midfield), as proven by his 07-08 performances.

 

[Anzac]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8742_5956977,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 77,00.html</a>

 

[sabret00the]

I'm not so sure we can lay blame at Fabregas's door for what he currently is. Like Liverpool/Gerrard, his desire and ability called for him to pick up the mantle of someone who feels the need to do all the attacking themselves and the problem is, once you breed someone like that, if it really so easy to re-cage them?

You only need to look at Barca to see how the system has been raped here at Arsenal. The fact that Hleb only got in to the front line (forwards line) in emergency's says it all. The role of forwards it to score at Barca, the role of forwards here isn't to score. Wenger has long fantasized about goals coming from midfield, he's stated so in the media and as such I remember debates on here about the plus side and negatives of such a move. I remember a particular post where it was stated that the advantage of goals from midfield over attack is that defenders find it harder to mark attackers out of the game. It's based on that system that Bendtner is still at the club. Don't get me wrong, I like Bendtner, but I don't feel, especially in our squad, that he's needed in a 4-3-3. It's no coincidence that he was a monster of assists in a 4-4-2.

At Arsenal, the onus of positions is forgotten and that causes us no end of trouble. The longer that we ask Fabregas to fill in as a fourth attacker, the longer not only we, but he'll suffer. Wenger said it, we play 4-1-4-1, but the reality is that he has us trying to play something more akin to 4-2-3-1 where the role of the striker is literally to pick out the best of the three and set them up to be in a position to make the best decision. That doesn't work. It can with certain players at certain times but it's not a consistent dependable playing strategy.

Wenger's belief has begun costing us in a major way. In order for a youth system to work, you need to be a lot more ruthless and you need to respect positional/role discipline. Wenger doesn't and at the top level; you need to be able to do your job before you start thinking about taking on more.

Any forward that finishes this season with less than five goals should be sold, because when we're in desperate need of a goal, we shouldn't be bringing on Eboue's, we should be bringing on old RvP's, Retiring Henry's, Injury-prone Ole Gunners, etc.

 

[ricky1985]

I think it was as clear as day, and has been for over a month now, that Fabregas has played as a second striker, and not as the third midfielder. Diaby and Denilson have played noticeably deeper.

Wenger has instructed Cesc to do what he is currently doing. Rightly or wrongly.

Then maybe its time to ask questions of Wenger if he thinks a 4-2-4 formation can really work.

I think at this point in Cesc's career, the question is; is he Andrea Pirlo or Kaka? Pirlo made his bones as a deep lying play maker, his range of passing was excellent, and he was the heart of the Milan midfield. But in that role, he never moved as high up the pitch as Cesc does now (or at least not the times I've seen him play for Milan, I know he plays further up in the Italy setup) and he was always protected in the midfield by two dedicated, defensive minded midfielders in Ambrosini and Gattuso. In our current midfield, neither Song, Diaby or Denilson has the defensive knowhow of those two. If Cesc is more Kaka than Pirlo, then he needs to be given a free role in front of 3 midfielders, paired alongside Arshavin, and played behind a central striker. Its not a traditional #10, as I don't consider Kaka a #10, its more of a roaming role. He and Arshavin are both technically gifted enough to move all over the pitch, interchanging, and trying to create.

We do not have the midfield personnel to accommodate Cesc running all over the pitch in a 4-3-3. If he is a Pirlo type, then he needs to start deeper and get back into position quicker when we lose the ball. He also needs to play centrally, with two of the three in Song, Diaby and Denilson flanking him, not him starting on the right side. When he pushes up with the ball, both Diaby and Denilson need to retreat back, helping to cover the left center and right center of the pitch. If he's going to be given a free role like Kaka had at Milan, then his defensive responsibilities will be absolved, as he'll have 3 midfielders behind him on most occasions.

I don't agree we were playing with 4 attackers, it just ended up that way. When Wenger picks Nasri and Rosicky for the wide positions, it's a pretty sure sign that Fabregas is playing more as a striker than a midfielder in my opinion. So the idea was we was playing 4 midfielders, with Fabregas off of Bendtner up front.

The reason we are so fragile defensively is we have 2 clueless centre midfielders, in fact clueless is being kind, and I'm not saying they aren't good footballers when on the ball or even occasionally when making tackles, but clueless in every other defensive respect, and 2 wide midfielders who didn't do a good job of protecting their fullback, although Nasri was infinitely more guilty than Rosicky. Bendtner and Fabregas ran hard the entire match, tried to defend from the front, but with their advanced starting positions that's about as much as they were ever going to be able to contribute.

Note; I'm not saying the others didn't run hard too, I'm saying 3 of them (Nasri, Denilson and Diaby) are clueless beyond all belief, in an area of the pitch where you have to make the right decision constantly or you're taking yourself out of the game.

As for whether Fabregas is more Pirlo or Kaka, he's neither and never will be. Ideally he's a midfielder who plays box-to-box, can do everything required, but in order to do that successfully at the very top level he needs forwards to link with and pass to, and a midfield around him that will work hard and have some idea how to play defensively. Which he currently doesn't have.

 

[GoOnYouGunners]

Porto are an average side. When we get our main guys back, at the Emirates with a respectable set of officials in charge of the match we will go through.

There are no respectable officials in the Champions League.

 

[MDGoonah41]

Ok, so its never Cesc's fault, everyone else in the team lets him down. I got it now.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

It's usually less his fault than everyone else's, yes. He's got his flaws, just like any player. They're being blown ridiculously out of proportion here though. It's not a coincidence that he's been playing this way ever since we lost all our strikers but one small russian guy. Neither is it a coincidence that Cesc seemingly played a bit deeper in the few games where Eduardo and Arshavin were on the field at the same time.

 

[MDGoonah41]

But he still has defensive responsibilities, and he's still responsible for helping cover the right side of the pitch where he lines up. Just because he's our most talented player doesn't mean he can shun those responsibilities. And if its Wenger's idea for him to move up and basically turn it into a 4-2-4, then he deserves plenty of blame too.

 

[ricky1985]

Ok, so its never Cesc's fault, everyone else in the team lets him down. I got it now.

Cesc was poor, I'm not saying he wasn't, what's with abrasive attitude, MD? He wasn't helped by the fact that either by design or because of his own sense of responsibility he was playing in a position that doesn't suit his game, and the players behind him were virtually useless at trying to do "his" job in midfield.

 

[ricky1985]

Where does this idea come from that he didn't try or run? I distinctly remember him chasing back into our own box at times trying cover runners, and I also remember him running tirelessly, along with Bendtner, right up top. I bet he covered more ground than anyone else on the day, and from a very advanced position too.

 

[Pies]

I can't believe some people on here were saying this would be an easy tie for us. We can still do it obviously, but we will have to be on our game at home. Hopefully we get some players back.

 

[alboots101]

**** me pies..your Arsenal..you know nuffin`s fkn easy..