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Unai Emery: Adios

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by Mo Britain, Oct 17, 2018.

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  1. Tosker

    Tosker Does Not Hate Foreigners

    I don't think it's just because we have lost a few games though - it's more the manner in which we lost them

    losing 2-1 at Anfield would have been acceptable, but 5-1 with no Özil and Laca starting on the bench is not
     
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  2. GoonerDKcph

    GoonerDKcph Member

    I think the way he is unable to fit Laca together with Auba is worse than not using Özil. And playing 3 in the back is getting stupid. Rather play 4-4-2 or 4-3-1-2 or anything else.

    But we are stille in a process - we are suffering under poor transfers and have to give Emery time.
     
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  3. boyinneedofhumor

    boyinneedofhumor Active Member

    Passing by and threading in for a moment...

    Losing 5-1 (and already looking difficult to claw back at 3-1) is not acceptable...
    Agreed.

    With no Özil...
    Agreed, but only if Özil wasn't really injured.

    Lacazette on the bench...
    Personally I like the way Lacazette presses and tries to force an error from the opponents.
    Nevertheless I am 50-50 on whether we must be insistent that both PEA and Lacazette starts. Because there isn't a top striker to look at on the bench for changes subsequently.
    This is a flip flop for me till now.

    Above is not a rebuttal at you... just my reservation on the situation, if it is as clear cut as we see it...
     
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  4. Jae

    Jae Well-Known Member

    Yet we've been competitive in the games we've played against the other big clubs, in fact we were unlucky not to win some of them.

    We would have had to beat them 5-6 to win that game, such is the state of our defence. Özil and Lacazette wouldn't have made a difference in my opinion

    I do think he should make more of an effort to play Lacazette and Auba together, but Özil is far too hit and miss for me.
     
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  5. squallman

    squallman Still Pining for Wenger

    I massively disagree with that sentence. Relegation tier teams go to Anfield and don't let in 5 goals. Our defence should be able to do the same.

    I mean look at the praise they have been getting all season, well except Lichsteiner. Mustafi, Sokratis and Kolasinac were the bees knees before the Anfield game, now you're saying that they aren't good enough to concede less than 5 goals in a competitive match at Anfield?

    If you don't believe me on the praise our defenders get, give it a few weeks and everyone will again be parroting how much Mustafi has improved and how important he is to the side.

    I also disagree on your Özil point, plenty of people were unhappy that he wasn't in the side. That's why it was such a controversy Emery left him out. If no one cared it wouldn't had been a story but its been a hot topic for wees now.
     
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  6. Ceballinhos

    Ceballinhos Cheating on Santi

    Because we didn't try to play a conservative football like relegation tier teams do.
    + Our coach couldn't play the same defence 2 games in a row in december because of injuries.

    When we could play the same players in our back 4/3 a few games in a row we've been kinda solid against the best teams in the league so far.

    And then there's the momentum thing.
    When you start making mistakes from the 10th minute and you give away a cheap goal just after scoring one the whole game changes.

    Mustafi was clearly half fit. Even a fit mustafi is an error prone player. He is certainly better this year though than he was last year.
    Kolasinac has always been a mediocre defender and has been praised for his offensive contribution. It's not the first time he's made a mistake that has cost us a goal this season.

    At the end of the day we've played Lich who might be the worst FB in the league right now and Kolasinac who is a mediocre defender against the best wingers in the league who were full of confidence.
    And we've also played a half fit mustafi because we didn't have much choice.

    Imo this game at anfield was less concerning than the one in 2014 when we've played our best back 4 with Sagna Per Kos Nacho.

    It was a terrible game from our team though and shows we need to bring on some good defenders this winter.

    We knew before the season has started Sokratis wasn't enough to fix our defence concern. Especially with the Koscielny injury.
    And when you add the injuries we've had in december...


    He was coming back from injury.

    As far as we know Özil has been injured and that's why he's missed the Anfield game.
     
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  7. squallman

    squallman Still Pining for Wenger

    We started with 7 defensive players and a midfielder playing in the front two. If that isn't a conservative set up I don't know what is.

    So? We aren't the only side with injury problems. I'm sure other teams have gone to Anfield while being hit with injuries. They didn't concede 5.

    No we haven't been kind of solid. Even before the Liverpool game we had the worst defence in the top 5 in terms of goals conceded and clean sheets. Also, plenty of teams make a mistake and give up a goal. Most of them don't go on to let in another 3 before half time.

    Mustafi is better than he was last year? High praise indeed. He's still nowhere near good enough, half fit, fully fit, whatever. I want him gone.

    Why so many excuses? It wasn't good enough, full stop. In 2014 or now. A club of Arsenal's stature shouldn't be shipping 5 goals against any side and certainly not with the regularity that we do in big games.

    I know Özil was injured I just disagree that no one cared about his absence until we started losing. Every fan cared. That's why it was so heavily discussed. Fortnite, Emery/Özil's relationship, injuries all of it was talked about in trying to discover why he was absent.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  8. Jae

    Jae Well-Known Member

    West Ham, Red Star Belgrade, Cardiff City, Bournemouth (at home) and Newcastle have all shipped 4 goals against Liverpool this season.

    United also lost 1-4 to them pre-season and Napoli got hammered by them 0-5 (and had practically a full strength team out).

    Liverpool are capable of beating anyone by 5 goals on their day. The job of our defense should be to avoid making it easy for them. We practically gift every team we play one goal a game through individual errors. We gave Liverpool 3 or 4 of those goals.

    We've made the most individual errors leading to both shots and goals this season. In my opinion it's a personnel (quality) issue.

    I'm sure some people have praised them this season, Sokratis and Bellerin have looked decent enough, as did Holding before his injury but none of our defenders are true Arsenal quality in my honest opinion. I get why people see the potential as they've all shown glimpses of class at different stages of the season, I obviously can't speak for anyone else, I wish I felt differently but unfortunately I'm just not convinced.

    Fair does, in my opinion the fact that it's only been a hot topic for the past few weeks coincides with the fact that we've been losing. If we were still unbeaten would anybody be bothered by the fact that he wasn't playing?

    I think we will just have to agree to disagree buddy! Nothing wrong with having different opinions though. This place would be very boring if everyone agreed on everything all the time. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  9. American_Gooner

    American_Gooner Not actually American. Unless Di Marzio says so. Moderator

    AMN is a right-winger by trade, wouldn't really call him a defensive player. He's like a modern day Geremi.

    Don't think you can compare Emery's approach to relegation teams either. There was clear ambition to break forward quickly once they won the ball back, teams lower down the league rarely have their full-backs push on the way we saw with Kolasinac and Lichsteiner.
     
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  10. squallman

    squallman Still Pining for Wenger

    I wouldn't count pre season games as an indicator of anything. Napoli beat Liverpool in Naples and then only lost 1-0 at Anfield. Look at the names of teams who conceded 4 goals, then tell me if you think we should be in that company.

    I know what Liverpool can do, I'm concerned about what Arsenal should do and that is not let in 5 goals. If we can't cross that low, low bar then I don't know what to say.

    I agree our personnel are an issue but they don't just show up to the game on a Saturday and play. They are coached throughout the week on what to do and how to play. Blame has to be apportioned between the players and the staff who coach them, with blame mainly going to the players of course.

    Fair enough on Özil if that's what you believe.

    I was under the assumption that AMN was a DM or B2B at best. A right winger though... That's interesting.

    Emery's entire approach seems to be through attacking full backs. His approach isn't comparable to relegation threatened teams to be fair but I was more comparing his set up to how Wenger set his stall out in big games. At Anfield it wasn't a Tony Pulis special but it also wasn't going to Stamford Bridge with a midfield of Arteta-Santi-Rosicky and Podolski-Chamberlain out on the wings.
     
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  11. Ceballinhos

    Ceballinhos Cheating on Santi

    Relegations sides park the bus and hope for the best. We didn't park the bus. We've tried to play.
    This is the difference.

    I'm not saying it's acceptable for a club such as arsenal to lose by 5 goals but I'm just trying to understand why we did against Liverpool in order to know what can be done to fix it.

    Liverpool is one of the best team in the world right now who can destroy absolutely any team. They've destroyed city last year in the champions which is way above us in terms of talent right now.

    And we can't afford to shoot ourselves in the foot against such a team.
    You can blame tactics and setup all you want (and I'm not saying it's been perfect we can improve on that front too for sure) but when you make so many amateurish mistakes I can't see what can be done through coaching.

    When you give confidence to a team like Liverpool this kind of results is to be expected unfortunately.

    At the end of the day unless we massively invest in defence we will go through games like those unfortunately.
    This has been a problem for years and we haven't tried to fix it.
     
  12. marting

    marting Well-Known Member

    If Özil plays and we lose, Emery gets beaten with it. If Özil doesnt play and we lose Emery gets beaten with it...Its a lose lose with this one.
     
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  13. squallman

    squallman Still Pining for Wenger

    I agree 95%. I just wish we could try to play and not concede 5 goals but if wishes were horses......

    I just pray that Emery plans to get a new central defensive pairing in the summer or at the very least sell some of these guys. All of the tactics in the world won't turn our defenders into a prime Sol Campbell or Ashley Cole. There needs to be a base standard of quality there that is lacking at the moment.
     
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  14. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    For all the discussion here, we were tactically schooled. From second one on they pressed our backline and goalie to force us to change our style of play, as that vid posted by @Preacher shows quite well. I disagree that Emery changed it immediately, but somewhen after the first and second goal Arsenal changed. Liverpool then went on to exploit our narrow shape down the wings, lack of marking assignments and the tendency of our players to get lured out of position and break shape, using quick Salah's movement right on edge of our backline as well as personnel majority on the wings.

    Something else that gets to me and just sort of reinforces my waning opinion of Emery is our own goal.

    [​IMG]

    It comes from a clear and well executed pressing situation. First Auba presses the CB, who has to play it out to the other defender, while Ramsey is near covering passing lanes. Then Ramsey presses the defender now on the ball, while Auba cuts of the passing lane back to the centre, forcing the defender to play a high ball which is then intercepted by an Arsenal. Then it's quick, direct play with a little one two by Iwobi and Ramsey, a proper flat cross into the centre and bam goal.

    Then Arsenal completely **** up for the first Liverpool goal. I don't even want to go into the slapstick that happened in the box, but the more deciding stuff that happened before, which points to an unorganized defense that actually gets into players' heads and makes them play like chicken.

    [​IMG]

    Ramsey, the far right green circle, is as the attacking mid, kind of where he needs to be: between their sitting mid Wijnaldum and Fabinho who didn't push up quickly themselves. The double pivot of Xhaka and Torreira, the second green circle is basically in place in midfield. But look at Iwobi, the red circle. What the **** is he doing? He's not occupied with their fullback, he's not pressing their winger, he's not closing passing lanes - he's just walking about.
    In that same first pic, the whole defence was already behind the ball, but they're leaving acres of space behind the midfield. There's something wrong in how the team divides and takes up space: The defence drops back to the box but the midfield picks up the ball carrier at the middle line, thus the team actually looses it's compactness. In that yellow box, that's where Kolasinac should have been, but it actually ends up as the space where the Livepool guy is found in the second pic. Xhaka has to attack the ball carrier and watch out for his back 'cause ther's no one behind him. If the ball carrier beats him the danger is on. Same goes for Torreira: There's no one near to pressure Mané who's in Lucas' back, so he's got to keep track of Firmino in front of him and Mané in his back. Although he probably gets to close to Firmino which makes it easier for the Brazilian to beat him and then he's through easily.
    The second one then shows what happens cause of this disorganization: Firmino gets the ball and decides to take on Torreira and beats him. Xhaka has come centrally but is too timid to get into the passing lane - similar to how our fullbacks are often too timid to have a got at wingers crossing. Then the next problem: We play a high line but aren't properly drilled on the offside trap. Everyone manages to keep a line, but for some reason Sokratis decides to play Salah on. And in that right corner Iwobi is still walking about like this game has nothing to do with him. He has to get close to that winger. I feel like the Liverpool fullback could've just stolen away behind him. He's looking on like he's in the ****ing stands. By now even Ramsey has come deeper along Wijnaldum.

    After Firmino has played his pass, it's a 1 vs 1 Salah - Sokratis - although the ****ing whole backline was right there and the Egyptian could've easily been played offside, it's suddenly 1 vs 1 and from then on it's slapstick. But it should have never come to that situation. If the team has a solid shape and is organized **** like this will never happen. And this kind of shambolic incohesive shape almost urges players to make individual decisions which in turn greatly benefits the occurence of individual mistakes.

    Everything in combination here: That the initial tactic seemed to work, but after one or two goals down, Emery lets himself get pressured into changing what worked and thereby bends to Klopp, who exactly wanted this so Liverpool could exploit that more narrow shape. So Emery doesn't only change what worked to something that didn't work, but also got outcoached at the same time. We could barely see working offensive patterns with Arsenal, one of them being what resulted in the goal, but Liverpool have a backlot full of drilled attacking patterns they can use. Just look at how they attack and what's always there; like Salah always operating on that edge of the backline and making deceptive runs, etc. Why don't we see (more) stuff like this at Arsenal if our manager is such a tactical master? And telling your quick forward to make runs and where to run - that's certainly not tied to player quality. I can tell any forward to make diagonal runs to drag fullbacks aways to create space for wingers or your own fullbacks on the wing.
    Then the dodgy defensive organization. From front to back, this team isn't organized enough. Some single parts do what they are supposed to do, but others don't. It's certainly a thing of not so much individual quality, but individual traits to some degree, but why isn't this team drilled on offside, marking assignments, zone protection and distances? That's all stuff a good coach can coach into almost any team on any level regardless of player quality. Some of the most poverty Bundesliga coaches get the basics of this stuff into some of the most poverty Bundesliga teams in less than a month, but Emery needs more than half a season cause he has to get to know his players and is cursed with such a bad squad? Come on.

    In a bigger picture this certainly stands in for me for the continuous change of formations, the missing cohesion in attack, the shambolic defensive organization and the failure of Emery to actually recognize what works, what doesn't and to keep momentum. The guy has no clear vision, almost feels afraid by now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  15. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    Geremi! Always used to get him into my teams when playing Fifa
     
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  16. Jae

    Jae Well-Known Member

    This 100% mate. I think if we get some quality defenders in and we still look poor and are leaking goals then Emery will deserve all the criticism he gets.
     
  17. squallman

    squallman Still Pining for Wenger

    To be fair I feel Emery deserves some criticism for our poor defensive record right now. He doesn't have Cafu-Maldini-Campbell-A. Cole available to him but he should still be able to get a better tune out of the players we have than he's doing so far. Wolves, Leicester, Watford, Crystal Palace and even Newcastle have conceded less than us this season and those are just the bottom half teams.
     
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  18. Garrincha

    Garrincha Wilf Zaha Aficionado Trusted

    Definitely. Leno, Lichtsteiner, Sokratis & Torreira were signed on his watch... 4 of the back 6 from Liverpool game.
     
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  19. marting

    marting Well-Known Member

    picked out some good points here and i believe this is half the problem that Emery is having, He cant get players to stay focused enough. Iwobi, Mkhi, Özil all are very slack when it comes to defending and taking up the right space. Randomly and you see it every week Mustafi will randomly charge off across the back of teh defence to get involved in something that is already covered off. Its not just about the quality of the player, Its about the players being responsible which a lot of these players are not.
     
  20. Tom349

    Tom349 Well-Known Member

    This is another issue I have with Emery so far. Its all well and good to say we need new defenders but what type of defenders are we going to be targeting. Until such time as he picks a defensive formation and sticks with it, its hard to go out and target a certain player. If he wants to play a back four then the two CB needs to have some size about them but if he goes with a back three then a smaller CB who can play out from the back is an option such as Nathan Ake who I'd be happy with in a back three but wouldn't consider him to be good enough in a back four.
     
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