Is The Premier League Tougher Than It Used To Be?

[grange]

Can’t be that boring, always rattles you and yesterday you were studying on Wikipedia you bellend.

You’re a weirdo, stop quoting me with this rubbish.

.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Modern defenders would have no idea how to deal with TH14

Just look at Mbappe fs. And if we’re comparing the two Henry was just as quick, stronger and had more tekkers. He just wasn’t as clinical (imo, don’t shoot me please).

Low block, high line or whatever they want Thierry Henry would have cooked these modern day PL defenders. Luis Suarez likewise.

There are some players systems can nullify like Haaland who is pretty limited but the above? Absolutely no chance.

Some of the so called top defenders in modern football would still be highly exposed imo as those sort of players are that good.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Problem with looking at the very top of players is it doesn't represent the PL as a whole.


There are only a handful of those guys around and in that stage of their career at any time.

So if people want to say Henry is better than anyone in the PL today, I wouldn't dispute it, I'd actually agree.

But the average PL player is better today I'm pretty sure and they're what makes up the general standard of the league.

 

[db10_therza]

But the average PL player is better today I'm pretty sure and they're what makes up the general standard of the league.

I actually don’t think you can make that statement. You need to define “better” for starters, it’s too subjective.

You can make statements about specific attributes- I’d say the average prem player these days is fitter, faster and generally more athletic. They’re more tactically aware and probably better at “on the ground” pass and move football.

But OG prem players were better at both delivering and defending both long balls from deep and crosses from the wing. They were better at take-ons and defending one on one. And they were better at long distance shots. A lot of these attributes have been slowly coached out of the game because they are out of favour but they’re still valid aspects of the game.

Whether all that means modern players “are better at football” depends on your subjective interpretation of what you think real football is.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Problem with looking at the very top of players is it doesn't represent the PL as a whole.


There are only a handful of those guys around and in that stage of their career at any time.

So if people want to say Henry is better than anyone in the PL today, I wouldn't dispute it, I'd actually agree.

But the average PL player is better today I'm pretty sure and they're what makes up the general standard of the league.

The whole thing is whether modern day systems would slightly nullify the threat of players like Thierry at his best? Because I very much doubt that would be the case.

Italy are the masters at Catenaccio and they tried doing so in Euro 2000 and we all know how that went as Henry ran their defence ragged.

We aren’t talking about some b*ms too. That was a 5 at the back defence with Maldini, Nesta and Cannavaro in there.

 

[Blaziken]

Not at the level between 2004-09 or 10-14 but certainly higher than 14-16 and 17-21.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

The whole thing is whether modern day systems would slightly nullify the threat of players like Thierry at his best? Because I very much doubt that would be the case.

Italy are the masters at Catenaccio and they tried doing so in Euro 2000 and we all know how that went as Henry ran their defence ragged.

We aren’t talking about some b*ms too. That was a 5 at the back defence with Maldini, Nesta and Cannavaro in there.

But in reality let's just say that Thierry came around today, he wouldn't be the exact same player he was then, that's the problem. He'd still be phenomenal but he'd be a little different, more adapted for this era of football.

Henry wasn't asked to do too much defensively and to preserve his energy but at times he'd press with intensity and challenge and he was deceptively good at it. I think if he were around today that would be a facet of his game you'd see a fair bit more of.

 

[Blankety Blank]

Modern defenders would have no idea how to deal with TH14

Just look at Mbappe fs. And if we’re comparing the two Henry was just as quick, stronger and had more tekkers. He just wasn’t as clinical (imo, don’t shoot me please).

Mbappe plays for by far the best team in basically a farmer's league where a washed up Laca scored shedloads last year. He plays against plumbers most weeks.
I'm sure he would perform in the Prem, he's probably the best on the planet but would he look as spectacular?
I watch the old clips from the 'halcyon days' of the prem. It's less organised, a lot of the players look slower & there is certainly more room for individual flair/tricks, that's all I'm saying.

Obviously great players will find a way to excel within any era.
I'm just saying that it may not be quite as good on the eye today.

 

[GoonerJay24]

Low block, high line or whatever they want Thierry Henry would have cooked these modern day PL defenders. Luis Suarez likewise.

There are some players systems can nullify like Haaland who is pretty limited but the above? Absolutely no chance.

Some of the so called top defenders in modern football would still be highly exposed imo as those sort of players are that good.

Yh these guys were the exception, top of the elite attackers. But, from era you still watched other several top class strikers.

I don't really see this nowadays and it makes me question, what have academy coaches been doing the last 15 years?

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I actually don’t think you can make that statement. You need to define “better” for starters, it’s too subjective.

You can make statements about specific attributes- I’d say the average prem player these days is fitter, faster and generally more athletic. They’re more tactically aware and probably better at “on the ground” pass and move football.

But OG prem players were better at both delivering and defending both long balls from deep and crosses from the wing. They were better at take-ons and defending one on one. And they were better at long distance shots. A lot of these attributes have been slowly coached out of the game because they are out of favour but they’re still valid aspects of the game.

Whether all that means modern players “are better at football” depends on your subjective interpretation of what you think real football is.

If we start from the point that the natural potential of people to kick a football around well has stayed pretty much the same since day 0, with the exception of a few freakish players who pop up to varying degrees in each generation and are outliers ability wise.

If we accept that point which I think it's hard to dispute you'd have to argue that somehow the ability to fulfill that potential over the past 15 or so years hasn't just not increased, it's decreased. In the face of what I don't think many could argue is more people playing the game worldwide, better scouting, more advanced coaching and diet, medical advanced and the technological advanced of high level sports and many more things.

We're comparing this to an era where Arsène had to convince a load of English guys to stop being drunks and eat some fruit occasionally and a few years later Allardyce being on the cutting edge of technology using Prozone stats. It's almost inconceivable to imagine those things now and how outdated it feels.

Where this all falls down for me is that no-one is arguing the quality was better in the 1950's than the 70's or the 70's than than 90's. Everyone accepts the advancement of the game there. It's very specific to the era we as a club were at our best and most of us were young and falling in love with the game.

That should be pretty telling really.

 

[2Smokeyy]

But in reality let's just say that Thierry came around today, he wouldn't be the exact same player he was then, that's the problem. He'd still be phenomenal but he'd be a little different, more adapted for this era of football.

Henry wasn't asked to do too much defensively and to preserve his energy but at times he'd press with intensity and challenge and he was deceptively good at it. I think if he were around today that would be a facet of his game you'd see a fair bit more of.

Potentially but that’s where I think our views differ. At Arsenal under Arteta whereby the focus is on pressing in his preferred system then I would say you’re correct but that’s not the case for many clubs across Europe. There are top teams across Europe like Real Madrid, PSG etc and even City to some extent who have other players working for the top calibre players and giving them the platform the produce their moments of magic. I think it draws back to the point which @Trilly and @jones were making about Leao.

I’ve always been an advocate for the above as those special players have enough quality to change a game or tie in an instant. I feel realistically to reach the next stage of our development to win the CL then there has to be a compromise imo.

 

[Blankety Blank]

Yh, but noticing fewer top players isn't just nostalgia, but also observation. Haaland being a standout shows how rare elite level attackers have become

I agree there certainly looks to be paucity of elite level attackers.
Wenger & others has talked about the lack of quality no 9s in the modern game.

 

[db10_therza]

If we start from the point that the natural potential of people to kick a football around well has stayed pretty much the same since day 0, with the exception of a few freakish players who pop up to varying degrees in each generation and are outliers ability wise.

If we accept that point which I think it's hard to dispute you'd have to argue that somehow the ability to fulfill that potential over the past 15 or so years hasn't just not increased, it's decreased. In the face of what I don't think many could argue is more people playing the game worldwide, better scouting, more advanced coaching and diet, medical advanced and the technological advanced of high level sports and many more things.

We're comparing this to an era where Arsène had to convince a load of English guys to stop being drunks and eat some fruit occasionally and a few years later Allardyce being on the cutting edge of technology using Prozone stats. It's almost inconceivable to imagine those things now and how outdated it feels.

Where this all falls down for me is that no-one is arguing the quality was better in the 1950's than the 70's or the 70's than than 90's. Everyone accepts the advancement of the game there. It's very specific to the era we as a club were at our best and most of us were young and falling in love with the game.

That should be pretty telling really.

I’m not sure you read my post lol.

I’m not saying the game is worse (or better) now, never have and never will. I hate these era comparisons.

I’m just saying it’s different. And the rest is subjective, because there is no universal definition of “better footballer”.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

The teams are better at defending and attacking, players are more efficient and teams are too. There is no coincidence that modern Arsenal outscored invincibles in the league.

Think its human nature to be romantic and keep the past at high pedestal as we tend to remember just in the best moments but it's not logical.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

I will always maintain while top players would excel in any era the overall technical level of players across the board is higher now.

Let's be honest some of the old school defenders from the early days of the prem could barely kick a ball ffs.

I totally get the lack of individual flair argument but some is simply down to the time & space to execute it in the modern game.

So If you are a top technician & athlete like TH14 it was probably easier to look good against old school cloggers & less structured teams.

Of course I have no doubt TH14 would still look wonderful today, just imho probably not as often.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I’m not sure you read my post lol.

I’m not saying the game is worse (or better) now, never have and never will. I hate these era comparisons.

I’m just saying it’s different. And the rest is subjective, because there is no universal definition of “better footballer”.

Okay, fair enough, I did go off on a tangent

I would assume you'd think footballers of today or the 2000's are 'better' than footballers from the 1950's though?

Common sense and the factors I highlighted in my previous post would lead me to strongly believe that, almost to the point of certainty.

I'm not talking about natural talent, but the tools the game has to maximize the potential that players have, and today that's greater than it's ever been. I think that's indisputable.

 

[db10_therza]

Okay, fair enough, I did go off on a tangent

I would assume you'd think footballers of today or the 2000's are 'better' than footballers from the 1950's though?

Common sense and the factors I highlighted in my previous post would lead me to strongly believe that, almost to the point of certainty.

I'm not talking about natural talent, but the tools the game has to maximize the potential that players have, and today that's greater than it's ever been. I think that's indisputable.

I get what you’re saying, and yeah on very large timescales like from 70 years ago the floor is way way higher.

But in the last 10 years or so it’s not that cut and dry for me. There have been advances in sports science but not all that much tbh, we’re really pushing up against the law of diminishing returns when it comes to getting more out of the human body.

When it comes to sports science in the prem for me there’s two clear eras, before and after Arsène. Once he established his regimen and everyone else clocked on, we’ve seen marginal gains since then but they have been very much marginal.

Now yea you could point at me using Arsène as the defining moment and say “well duh Arsenal fan boi bias nah’uh” but I’d just tell you to fk off to be honest so there’s that

 

[El Duderino]

Modern defenders would have no idea how to deal with TH14

Prime Henry would be about 10 yards clear before any defender had the time to think, let alone say "but, but my JDP!!!"

 

[GoonerJeeves]

When was this 'used to be' threshold that we are measuring today against?

 

[db10_therza]

Prime Henry would be about 10 yards clear before any defender had the time to think, let alone say "but, but my JDP!!!"

It’s not so much the pace, but the full array of what Henry brought to bear that current players just don’t really have.

You just don’t get ballers in the modern era because most modern coaches won’t stand for one of their players trying to sauce their way into the box. The game is all about percentages now and the odds are rarely on the side of the average tekkster (Unless you’re an Henry or a Messi in which case the odds are actually in your favour and every manager would just let you ball out).

This means football is more “effective” than before on average, but it’s also less exciting which is the actual point most people are trying to make on this thread.

My personal belief is that like bad haircuts, these things go in cycles. We’ll be blessed with another era of ballers soon enough