Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[lomekian]

3 seasons in a row and the dude hasn't learned. What was the point of handing out huge contracts to Nelson/Vieira when you never intended to use them? I'm pretty sure he must have been aware of Nelson's overall quality by now and still went ahead and gave him the contract. Bad squad management yet again.

OR good asset management when you know FFP won't let you buy a winger you want and you don't want to let Nelson go for nothing?

 

[lomekian]

Respectfully disagree. We bottled it Vs Villa with snatching at chances and then with time left we left ESR last man against one of the most inform strikers in Europe. Any semblance of tactics and planning went out the window. Not to mention the numerous individual errors throughout the game itself that gifted Villa chances.

Granted the league isn't over and we can still do something. It'll be interesting to see if we recover and can push City all the way - who knows their own CL exit may impact their remaining games and we need to be there to punish them - or do tail off now and accept our lot?

Missing chances isn't bottling. This squad has had patches of scoring freeling and missing chances for 3 years now - their conversion rate at the business end of the season is not different to that in the UL group stages. We just don't have that many above average finishers, which is why we have to play well to win, unlike City, Liverpool, Bayern, Madrid, PSG and even at a lower level Sp**s & United, who all win points when playing like **** because they've got players who can score from nothing. Ode & Saka do their best, but they are creators first.

 

[lomekian]

The FA Cup was won with Wenger and Emery players. His tactics helped but so did the muscle memory of the players. There's a big question mark over him that's never gone away.

The muscle memory of the players? Apart from Xhaka and Bellerin who of that squad had done a damn thing of note under pressure previously at Arsenal?

 

[lomekian]

That second half and the Villa one had had very much the feel of our poor run pre new years.

Losing and going out on your sword is one thing, but we barely put up a fight in either of those second halves, you wouldn't think based on our intensity or desire levels that we were a few games away from winning the 2 biggest club titles in the game. It was weak and cowardly.

Sure the players deserve blame for being cowardly but Arteta deserves a big portion of the blame for not going at the opposition hard tactically when we needed to turn the matches around.

If we'd have got beaten 3-0 last night but really gave it a go after they scored I'd have preferred that to the weak way we went out.

I rate Arteta but there is a theme developing with him that at pivotal moments in cup / title races we go into our shells. It has to change next season.

You are an to something, but I think its more specific. Arteta has repeatedly failed at what Wenger was so good at, which was 'we desperately need a goal, **** it, I'll throw on all the attacking players and somehow get them to function together' mode.

Arteta's teams get a lot of late goals because they are very willing and tire opponents when they play well.

Wenger's had that, but also he was much better than Mikkel at somehow making a 3 strikers, 4 wingers and a playmaker formation work late on in games. Arteta hasn't yet worked out how to overwhelm the opposition when they are leading and well set up defensively to anything like the same level. Possibly partly personnel, as Wenger always spent f-all on defensive players but splurged on number 10s...

 

[Trilly]

Last week we shot ourselves in the foot. This week they did a job on us. Tuchel may be narcissistic pervert with the man management skills of an fish, but it is universally acknowledged that he is very good tactically.

This thread seem to be full of wild pivots between 'Bayern are cooked, we'll dust 'em' to 'Arteta is a loser who makes his players hate themselves' in the space of 12 days...

Honestly I feel like if the roles were reversed and we drew 2-2 at the Allianz without any fans everyone would be commending Arteta and the team for good play and not saying Bayern gave us the game.

If we scored their first goal we’d be commending Ødegaard for forcing the CB into a hurried clearance and for their second we’d be praising Saka for turning his defender on the halfway line and winning a penalty.

We barely created anything for 3/4 halves in this tie. Sometimes you just gotta hold your hands up

 

[lomekian]

Pre Dubai it looked like the players aren’t enjoying themselves on the pitch. Over the last month, I’m seeing this again.

Funny how its less enjoyable when you lose some games playing 2-3 times a week....

 

[lomekian]

It sounds like he want a striker who can score 30 goals. I was told that’s not his style and he didn’t want it. Interesting

I think anyone who told you he didn't want that was an idiot. Every manager wants a 30 goal striker....now a 20 goal striker is not worth disrupting a whole team or tactic for, but a 30 goals striker covers a whole hose of other problems. There's a reason Pep got Haaland despite him being useless outside of the final third.

 

[Batman]

Funny how its less enjoyable when you lose some games playing 2-3 times a week....

Everyone competing for titles right now is playing 2-3 times a week. This excuse is getting pathetic. The fixtures are congested at this time of the season, this is nothing new. Earning trophies means navigating fixture congestion and dealing with the fatigue associated with playing 2-3 times a week either by gritting your teeth or by the manager rotating to keep the squad fresh. We could have even more fixtures to play if we hadn't gone out with a whimper in both domestic cups.

The reality is that we cannot keep having these blips at the same time of the season and keep moaning about the players not being able to handle the physical demands of 3 game a week football. There are 3 ways to mitigate that and 3 only:

1) The manager does a better job of rotating early in the season.
2) The players toughen the hell up.
3) We are perfect in the first 3/4 of the season and give ourselves such a cushion in the league that we can afford this kind of blip.

Only the first 2 of those 3 are realistic so they had better figure out a way to do it instead of acting like they're the only team playing 3 times a week at this stage of the season.

 

[lomekian]

You forget, we were leading by a country mile last year until the last few games. We just needed to continue doing what we were doing and Pep couldn't touch us. Pep didn't beat us. We threw it away, hence my post.

Yeah, until the weakness of our squad was exposed by injuries.

When you have to replace Saliba with Holding at the same time as Partey's legs turn to jelly, its literally impossible to continue what you were doing.

And tbh, we were flagging well before then in terms of perfomance levels. They were playing on fumes, and some of them cracked under the pressure.

Experience/know how is a thing - you have to know how to maintain team performance when the players are knackered mentally and physically. Its the biggest learning curve for players and managers alike. This year we have so far managed it a bit better than last, but the proof will be the next 6 games, many of which are tough. If fall off as badly as last year, then its a talking point.

 

[Heavy Duty Rom]

Funny how its less enjoyable when you lose some games playing 2-3 times a week....

I agree, there has been some overreaction on here, especially after Aston Villa, but it is the way we lose games.

I feel like Arteta is making basic errors over and over again. Did you understand the Jorginho to Jesus sub last night? For me, Jorginho was the only one progressing the ball well, if you take him off, put Partey on, or hell, even Zinchenko or Vieira. You don’t move Havertz back there and have another player who is not comfortable on the ball in the middle of the park.

 

[lomekian]

He's the one who signed the guys he has. Also the one who paid Auba who's at 25 this season to leave.

Liverpool got Salah but before he joined them his career high at season end was 15 goals. A top manager takes what he's got and make it work instead of blaming his squad for being inadequate after spending a billion pounds

Loving using Ligue 1 as a stick to beat our manager with.

Auba has 25 in all comps, but in the league he has 12 in 28 in a farmers league. Hell Laca has 42 in 59 in the league since he went back to Lyon. Does anyone realistically think he'd be getting those numbers in this league even if the team was set up perfectly for him...because he didn't get anywhere near under Wenger, Emery or Areta.

And yes Klopp deserves credit for Salah. But Klopp is £ for £ probably as good as anyone in the world in the last 20+ years, so a high bar

 

[lomekian]

Hey hey. Let's not do that. You can call me a lot of things but not a Tory. I would be a Sp**s fan than a Tory.

Instantly raised in my estimation

 

[lomekian]

You're ignoring the point that we just had to beat three teams in the bottom of the league and the title was ours, we could have lost to City and Brighton. Our position was almost unassailable. We just had to continue doing what we had been doing. But we didn't. It was a big down turn.

This is and remains an entierly seperate point no matter how many times you make it ;-)

 

[lomekian]

I'd still take our side over Bayerns tbh. Nothing I saw from them over the two legs made me think they were an exceptional side.

Tuchel getting one over on Arteta tactically and our players freezing a bit cost really.

In all honesty, the squads are quite equal with strengths in opposite areas, but I'd give Bayen the edge.

Neuer (had forgotten how good he is on the ball)
Kimmich
Saliba
Gabriel
Davies
Rice
Goretzka
Ødegaard
Saka
Gnabry or Musiala
Kane

Main difference in this one was Tuchel shut down our strong side at exactly the time our weak side was the weakest its been all season. And that Bayern's players had been on the beach in the Bundesliga for 3-4 weeks

 

[jones]

Loving using Ligue 1 as a stick to beat our manager with.

Auba has 25 in all comps, but in the league he has 12 in 28 in a farmers league. Hell Laca has 42 in 59 in the league since he went back to Lyon. Does anyone realistically think he'd be getting those numbers in this league even if the team was set up perfectly for him...because he didn't get anywhere near under Wenger, Emery or Areta.

And yes Klopp deserves credit for Salah. But Klopp is £ for £ probably as good as anyone in the world in the last 20+ years, so a high bar

Well Auba did get near that for Wenger and Emery and the latter is widely considered to be levels below Arteta even though he got another scrub in Watkins at 20+10 in the league.

If Laca and Auba can get as many playing under hacks surely Mikel Magic like Dynamo Arteta can get more out of them here?

Not just Klopp for what it's worth, there are loads of managers who make their strikers look far better than Arteta gets his to look. He has other strengths but his strikers all looked like **** under him

 

[lomekian]

Hmm what Alonso did is amazing.

Icl I don't keep up with the Bundas-liga (), but how was Alonso able to topple Bayern with the relatively little spending?

Also do people that keep up with the Bundesliga think this is a one off or he's actually elite level?

ITs really incredibly difficult to say. He's found a system perfect for his squad. We simply have no idea if he can replicate this with different squad make ups, and if he can utilise multiple systems, or of this system gets found out like a vastly superior version of Chris Wilder's 1st go at Sheff Utd. BUT his impact there was pretty instant, and this season has been spectacular, and he's made a lot of average players look world beaters, so the likelihood is he'll achieve some success elsewhere too.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

As ever, ignoring the context, which is what everyone who makes these arguments does.

City were not far removed from 2 titles with the most expensive squad in the league, including players recruited by Pep in advance of his arrival. There's a reason the 115 refer to most pre-Pep time.

Yeah that's kinda his schtick

The 2015-16 squad had Yaya Toure and KDB in it, as well as Sterling, Fernandinho, D. Silva, Navas, Kolarov, Ageuerooooooo, Nasri, Zabaleta, Kompany etc. etc. let's ignore all that and just focus on spend as if everyone starts with no squad in 2016.

The only guys we had at that sort of level were Özil and Sanchez, arguably one or two others.

Transfer inflation apparently doesn't exist either as if KDB at that age wouldn't cost £100m or more to buy now

 

[lomekian]

It’s getting a bit like Groundhog Day. Last year was the same as this year, disappointing end to the season, ID gaps in the squad that we hope they put right in the summer and expect to compete better next year.

The problem is the gaps in the squad are for players that Arteta has bought to fill them already.

Why do we have to buy for midfield when we spent millions on Partey, Rice and Jorginho? Why do we need a new striker after spending all that money on Jesus and Havertz, we have bought Zinchenko, Kiwior, Tomi who probably all will be replaced/phased out because they aren’t good enough and we still have to buy a new left back despite all these players playing there.

Obviously players will need replaced and building a squad is a constant process but none of our new buys seem to last more than a few seasons.

How many seasons have Liverpool gotten out of Salah, Alisson, Robertson, Trent etc etc? Or Man City with De Bruyne or Stones etc? They buy players but they are getting a damn site more than 3-4 years out of them.

1) Because Partey is broken and Jorgi was cheap and old
2) Because Jesus wasn't that expensive and has been the same since he fecked his knee with Brazil and Haverz whole selling point is that he can fulfill multiple roles - was never advertised as a striker
3) Because Zinchenko is excellent at inverting but not trad full back play, Kiwior is a reserve centre-half playing out of position, and Tomi is a utility defender who can't stay fit.

You can cite Liverpool & CIty's successes, but for every Salah or Robertson (Alisson remains the most expensive keeper ever and trend was a youth teamer), there is an Oxlade Chamberlain (38mEuros), a Keita (60m euros), a Thiago (22m Euros) or dare I say a Gakpo 45m Euros. Same for City.

Its tempting to do a grass is greener to transfer deals, but big clubs all make mistakes - its just not trying to reall F up like Utd & Chavski. Where we do need to be better is the Salah or Robertson type buy where a player ends up significantly surpassing expecations vis a vis their fee.

 

[db10_therza]

Waiting till all the hot takes and overreactions stop before wading in this pool but this post caught my eye:

You are an to something, but I think its more specific. Arteta has repeatedly failed at what Wenger was so good at, which was 'we desperately need a goal, **** it, I'll throw on all the attacking players and somehow get them to function together' mode.

Arteta's teams get a lot of late goals because they are very willing and tire opponents when they play well.

Wenger's had that, but also he was much better than Mikkel at somehow making a 3 strikers, 4 wingers and a playmaker formation work late on in games. Arteta hasn't yet worked out how to overwhelm the opposition when they are leading and well set up defensively to anything like the same level. Possibly partly personnel, as Wenger always spent f-all on defensive players but splurged on number 10s...

Isn’t this just down to the fact that Arteta’s methods are much more structured and regimented than the way Arsène liked to see attacking football played which was more improv and off the cuff?

Throwing on a bunch of attackers completely ruins the well defined game plan that has been drilled into the players, so it’s not surprising to me that they might struggle. It’s just one of the cons of going down the JDP route.

 

[lomekian]

Honestly I feel like if the roles were reversed and we drew 2-2 at the Allianz without any fans everyone would be commending Arteta and the team for good play and not saying Bayern gave us the game.

If we scored their first goal we’d be commending Ødegaard for forcing the CB into a hurried clearance and for their second we’d be praising Saka for turning his defender on the halfway line and winning a penalty.

We barely created anything for 3/4 halves in this tie. Sometimes you just gotta hold your hands up

Hey, I'm not disputing that Bayern deserved to go through. They and their coach taught our team and our coach some lessons. But they also got us at a time that suited them just fine and was not great for us. A month before and I'd have fancied us to beat them becuase we were cruising to easy wins and they were at their peak implosion moment, which they have recovered from.