Reiss Nelson: Lionelson

[teamsoutheast]

Last time he started a game was 7th of Jan. the guy is so back in the pecking order it would be absolutely waste for him to stay at 24 and play so little when he already played so little last 2 years.

Another consideration to make is that he's homegrown. If we sell, who would be our "upgraded", "homegrown" replacement? Michael Olise/ maybe?

 

[MutableEarth]

Another consideration to make is that he's homegrown. If we sell, who would be our "upgraded", "homegrown" replacement? Michael Olise/ maybe?

I'd take Jaden Philogene-Bidace from Hull. An outside-the-box choice for me but he's already an England U21 international, Championship experience; dribbles and shoots with both feet, can play both wings, physically adept in terms of pace and strength. I really, really like the player, I actually rate him more than Bynoe-Gittens at Dortmund. If we're going homegrown, he's my choice. A younger, more raw player sure, but one with the right profile who solves problems for us. I have an annoying feeling that he'll go to Sp*rs but failing that he's a shoe-in for Palace when they eventually lose the aforementioned Olise. I'd only avoid Olise purely for the fact that he does tend to get injured a fair bit lately, but he's a player I've always liked. Good thing about him is that he can play in midfield too.

I don't think we have a winger coming up who have true superstar winger potential in the way Saka did. Osman Kamara and Amario Cozier-Duberry are both quite close but I'm almost certain we're going to lose the latter (sadly) and the former still has a lot to prove. I do like Kamara though, I saw him live in the Youth Cup and he's absolutely rapid, but he's also got a promising physical build and surprisingly good technique. Probably has the most goalscoring potential of the current set of wingers, even more than Cozier-Duberry (I think Cozier-Duberry will almost certainly end up in midfield when he's older). Any other potentials and you're looking at U16s (Zecevic-John/Bailey-Joseph etc) who are unknowns.

 

[El Duderino]

If you want Saka to be able to be rotated next year we need to upgrade on Reiss.

I like him but he's been here long enough now and just hasn't made the grade. No shame in that but it's best for his career if he moves on in the summer too.

Unfortunately I think he's a comfort zone type of player so he might just be happy with his current role for a few more years yet.

Offering a new contract was just not it.

The amount he has played this season was just not worth it.

Obvious a mix of the manager not trusting him and him not being good enough is happening and I think everyone saw that coming.

Bad decision overall, especially by the player.

 

[teamsoutheast]

Agree, but Nelson had a lot more pedigree at 15-18 than all of those guys put together - was a leading light in England age groups, and was one of the top players at u21 level in the country. But the final step is the hardest.

Agree, A couple posts are a little harsh IMO. He was being talked up because he was head and shoulders above other players week in week out at youth level. I watched him quite a few times and he was light years ahead and dominated games single handedly.

He's had injuries at key stages just when he is just starting to find his rhythm and it's probably just as frustrating for him as it may be for some of us who rate him. I personally don't remember anyone saying he should bench Saka TBH....

Saka didn't dominate games like he did but what I think coaches love about Saka is his humility and will to learn and give 100% in everything he does and you can see that as he is improving all the time. Reiss is probably relying on his talent alone and maybe needs to show more in his personality/attitude/enthusiasm.

We need more performances like the one at Brighton in the cup last season. He's a late bloomer IMO.
View attachment ReissNeslon.mp4

 

[MutableEarth]

Agree, A couple posts are a little harsh IMO. He was being talked up because he was head and shoulders above other players week in week out at youth level. I watched him quite a few times and he was light years ahead and dominated games single handedly.

He's had injuries at key stages just when he is just starting to find his rhythm and it's probably just as frustrating for him as it may be for some of us who rate him. I personally don't remember anyone saying he should bench Saka TBH....

Saka didn't dominate games like he did but what I think coaches love about Saka is his humility and will to learn and give 100% in everything he does and you can see that as he is improving all the time. Reiss is probably relying on his talent alone and maybe needs to show more in his personality/attitude/enthusiasm.

We need more performances like the one at Brighton in the cup last season. He's a late bloomer IMO.
View attachment 22921

Saka impacted nearly every game he was in, no matter the level he played at. I think that was an indicator into how good he could become. I saw him live twice - his U21 debut and his first team debut vs Qarabag. In both games, he was already completely comfortable. He wasn't flashy or tricky but there's a relentlessness and inevitability about the way he plays that just captivates you. With Nelson, there was unpredictability and imagination, but once he lost that, he didn't have the foundation Saka did. Became clear quite early on that Saka was made for first team football given how easily he was able to influence games, even if he didn't dominate them the way Nelson did.

Gnabry was a great example of that. He didn't dominate games at youth level, but he always impacted them even on a bad day. All it took was one bullet finish and that was it. In our youth teams, there are 2 archetypes I look for - those who control/dominate and those who impact (and the rare few who do both). I've found that often it's the players that do the latter regularly who tend to end up playing at a higher level than the former. Malen never dominated games but always impacted them. Even Iwobi was a good example of this. He was never regularly the best performer but he was solid and always made decisive and impactful decision. The one player I can see bucking this trend (and I hate to say it because I don't want to jinx it) is Max Dowman. Every highlight I've seen of him has consisted of him completely running the show despite being much younger than everyone else on the pitch. Control and Impact.

 

[fute]

Is it lack of ability or lack of confidence?

 

[MutableEarth]

Is it lack of ability or lack of confidence?

Definitely the latter. Issue is, you have to give the coach a reason to play you so you gotta fake confidence and try stuff anyway. Timid and safe will get you a decent 6/10 but never anything higher.

 

[MaraDon]

Saka impacted nearly every game he was in, no matter the level he played at. I think that was an indicator into how good he could become. I saw him live twice - his U21 debut and his first team debut vs Qarabag. In both games, he was already completely comfortable. He wasn't flashy or tricky but there's a relentlessness and inevitability about the way he plays that just captivates you. With Nelson, there was unpredictability and imagination, but once he lost that, he didn't have the foundation Saka did. Became clear quite early on that Saka was made for first team football given how easily he was able to influence games, even if he didn't dominate them the way Nelson did.

Gnabry was a great example of that. He didn't dominate games at youth level, but he always impacted them even on a bad day. All it took was one bullet finish and that was it. In our youth teams, there are 2 archetypes I look for - those who control/dominate and those who impact (and the rare few who do both). I've found that often it's the players that do the latter regularly who tend to end up playing at a higher level than the former. Malen never dominated games but always impacted them. Even Iwobi was a good example of this. He was never regularly the best performer but he was solid and always made decisive and impactful decision. The one player I can see bucking this trend (and I hate to say it because I don't want to jinx it) is Max Dowman. Every highlight I've seen of him has consisted of him completely running the show despite being much younger than everyone else on the pitch. Control and Impact.

Foden, Saka, Gordon, all players that in their debut you could tell, ohhh there is something there.

again even Ibowi and AMN.

Now this dude, and closer to him Marquinhos, you could tell they were NEVER even close to what is expected from a premier league debutant, not even close.

The feeling that you get when you realize that the shirt is way to heavy for them. Similar, the difference between crazy Guendouzi and average Lokonga.


With Guendouzi it was like "Oh, this is something else, special, if we can make this work we have a real gem."

With Sambi on the other hand "This may work, big may, but there is a long way to go, can we even afford the luxury?"

With Ibowi: AMN and ESR "I get why we are forcing this, we can get good money from him".

with Nelson: "he does not have what it takes and will never reach the necessary level. sellnow stop wasting time and team slots.

 

[MutableEarth]

Foden, Saka, Gordon, all players that in their debut you could tell, ohhh there is something there.

again even Ibowi and AMN.

Now this dude, and closer to him Marquinhos, you could tell they were NEVER even close to what is expected from a premier league debutant, not even close.

The feeling that you get when you realize that the shirt is way to heavy for them. Similar, the difference between crazy Guendouzi and average Lokonga.


With Guendouzi it was like "Oh, this is something else, special, if we can make this work we have a real gem."

With Sambi on the other hand "This may work, big may, but there is a long way to go, can we even afford the luxury?"

With Ibowi: AMN and ESR "I get why we are forcing this, we can get good money from him".

with Nelson: "he does not have what it takes and will never reach the necessary level. sellnow stop wasting time and team slots.

This is patently untrue, his early jaunts easily had promise. It only went to sh*t during his Hoffenheim loan. To compare Nelson to Marquinhos is an insult

 

[fute]

Looks like Arteta has rehabilitated Kai. Why not Reiss?

 

[MaraDon]

This is patently untrue, his early jaunts easily had promise. It only went to sh*t during his Hoffenheim loan. To compare Nelson to Marquinhos is an insult

Marquinos scored in his debut.

 

[Dokaka]

Looks like Arteta has rehabilitated Kai. Why not Reiss?

Kai had back to back elite seasons in Germany as a teenager, nowhere near comparable.

 

[MutableEarth]

Looks like Arteta has rehabilitated Kai. Why not Reiss?

Reiss would need to have a run of games. That's not happening. He could score a hattrick the next game and still get dropped for Martinelli or Saka. He needs a sustained run of games. This only happens if he leaves.

Marquinos scored in his debut.

And did nothing else of note. Don't wanna slight the kid too much but he wasn't good. Cozier-Duberry was legitimately more talented and didn't get a chance. He just had a bigger body.

 

[lomekian]

I think ideally Nelson - if he had to choose his position - would play as a #10/SS or even a central midfielder. Most of his U21 run was playing in that position largely and it's probably the position he's most comfortable in, with LW being his best secondary position and the one he likes far more than RW because he has more license to come inside. Out wide, he has the quick feet and good acceleration but doesn't have the pure running power and pace to get away from full-backs and - crucially - he doesn't really have the confidence to rely on tricks like he did at youth level. And with the wing role at Arsenal requiring a lot of width, he feels a lot more disconnected from the team than ever before. A cursory glance at all his decent-to-good games for Arsenal in the last year and a half, and they all involve him seeing a lot of the ball in the half spaces or central areas. That must factor into any team he moves to next. If he goes away to a team that typecasts him as a winger, as most have done already, they won't see his best football.

RE Zelalem, it must be noted that he also suffered severe injuries aswell, 2 ACLs if I remember correctly, but he was often outshined at U21 level. He had a nice little double pivot with AMN for a while, and AMN was showing himself to be superior. Indeed, those performances convinced me that AMN had the keys to #6 if he was trusted enough, he showed everything.


Nelson had a ton of fanfare. The earlier stages of the Hoffenheim loan should have signalled that his rise was a formality. Yet, it was a false dawn - he got AMOGed by Nagelsmann for not being disciplined enough, subsequently got benched and he's been on a downward trajectory ever since. Only recently has he started building his stock back but occasionally he now he still has timid performances like last night. It's a shame really. I really think he needs to leave in order to find his groove.

Totally agree re Nelson - his best role is a roving one - might have had a different journey under Wenger Jazz ball, but positional play doesn't suit him unless everyone is rotating.

Also agree re AMN. A real shame that laxness and lack of concentration crept into his game, making him a less attractive midfield option. Had he Declan RIce's mental side of the game, he would have made it here.

 

[lomekian]

Agree, A couple posts are a little harsh IMO. He was being talked up because he was head and shoulders above other players week in week out at youth level. I watched him quite a few times and he was light years ahead and dominated games single handedly.

He's had injuries at key stages just when he is just starting to find his rhythm and it's probably just as frustrating for him as it may be for some of us who rate him. I personally don't remember anyone saying he should bench Saka TBH....

Saka didn't dominate games like he did but what I think coaches love about Saka is his humility and will to learn and give 100% in everything he does and you can see that as he is improving all the time. Reiss is probably relying on his talent alone and maybe needs to show more in his personality/attitude/enthusiasm.

We need more performances like the one at Brighton in the cup last season. He's a late bloomer IMO.
View attachment 22921

Saka is also stronger, more explosive and uses his body better. Also, even when not that involved, his decision making and confidence were both so strong even at 15 that he was so often able to be decisive when there was an opportunity. I think Reiss is humble too - indeed seems too deferential and quiet, even in interviews etc - he could probably do with being rather less so

 

[fute]

Kai had back to back elite seasons in Germany as a teenager, nowhere near comparable.

Years ago in a different league.

He didn't have that at Chelsea and was considered a bust.

He struggled early on with us, and Arteta gave him a long leash and talked about everyone supporting him.

Now look at Kai.

Arteta also rehabbed Xhaka.

Just saying.

 

[lomekian]

Marquinos scored in his debut.

So did Sanchez Watt....

In all seriousness, Nelson showed a lot more quality and intelligence than Marquinhos untill he kind of lost the plot during the back end of his German loan spell, and for whatever reason has never recovered.

I think he's one of those guys whose skill really shone when he was up against his peers from u14-u21, but at the top flight pro level everyone is quicker, bigger, stronger and better, and things that worked at the lower levels are harder to execute, particularly when what were physical advantages (quickness) are surpassed by others. He still has lovely technique, but seems to lack both power in his body and in his ball striking when it comes to the elite level. The kind of guy who in the right team could absolutely destroy a lower league, but lacks any single stand out quality at this level.

 

[lomekian]

Reiss would need to have a run of games. That's not happening. He could score a hattrick the next game and still get dropped for Martinelli or Saka. He needs a sustained run of games. This only happens if he leaves.


And did nothing else of note. Don't wanna slight the kid too much but he wasn't good. Cozier-Duberry was legitimately more talented and didn't get a chance. He just had a bigger body.

If Reiss scored hat-tricks, he'd get plenty more games. Ultimately for a variety of reasons (fitness at key times, confidence, lack of physical development and lack of any singular elite skillset among his good allround ability), the boat at Arsenal has sailed. There were a couple of times when the door was ajar for him, but he always got injured, and then only got back in when rusty and lacking in confidence. Last season was a killer - showed signs of what he had as a youngster, and then got injured - twice.

 

[Bucephalus]

Saka is also stronger, more explosive and uses his body better. Also, even when not that involved, his decision making and confidence were both so strong even at 15 that he was so often able to be decisive when there was an opportunity. I think Reiss is humble too - indeed seems too deferential and quiet, even in interviews etc - he could probably do with being rather less so

I think it was also important for Saka that his first forays into adult football came playing out of position at left wing back. He got to rip crosses on the overlap and dribble past forwards who were tracking back, instead of immediately coming face to face with a skilled fully adult defender who knows exactly how to shut down a winger, especially a young one who suddenly doesn't have the physical and technical advantages he was used to in the youth game.

 

[teamsoutheast]

Saka impacted nearly every game he was in, no matter the level he played at. I think that was an indicator into how good he could become. I saw him live twice - his U21 debut and his first team debut vs Qarabag. In both games, he was already completely comfortable. He wasn't flashy or tricky but there's a relentlessness and inevitability about the way he plays that just captivates you. With Nelson, there was unpredictability and imagination, but once he lost that, he didn't have the foundation Saka did. Became clear quite early on that Saka was made for first team football given how easily he was able to influence games, even if he didn't dominate them the way Nelson did.

Gnabry was a great example of that. He didn't dominate games at youth level, but he always impacted them even on a bad day. All it took was one bullet finish and that was it. In our youth teams, there are 2 archetypes I look for - those who control/dominate and those who impact (and the rare few who do both). I've found that often it's the players that do the latter regularly who tend to end up playing at a higher level than the former. Malen never dominated games but always impacted them. Even Iwobi was a good example of this. He was never regularly the best performer but he was solid and always made decisive and impactful decision. The one player I can see bucking this trend (and I hate to say it because I don't want to jinx it) is Max Dowman. Every highlight I've seen of him has consisted of him completely running the show despite being much younger than everyone else on the pitch. Control and Impact.

Yeah Iwobi was another who although didn't seem that great at youth level, did the basics very, very well and his attitude was also impeccable. Andries Jonker heaped alot of praise on him at the time:

Jonker - Iwobi is the perfect player

‘Alex is incredibly motivated, dedicated, willing to work and open to listening. He is always trying to improve himself’

www.arsenal.com

I think humility and dedication is heavily underrated as a trait in football. I wonder if there was an aura of arrogance/lacking maturity around Reiss during his younger years which hindered his progress.

At grass roots level, Reiss played for a club in my local area (Moonshot Athletic) based in New Cross (South East London) His coach at the time (Tony Simpson) spoke of his immense talent but alluded to time-keeping being a problem. I do wonder if this may have been an issue in his early years: (On a side note, it's actually very strange because I played with Tony's team as a youngster when he himself was playing ):

View attachment Reiis Interview.mp4

I think the following interview is very informative although it was back in 2022, the last few years have been a bit of a journey for him:

Long read: Nelson on loans, maturing and mentoring

After a season away on loan in the Dutch top-flight with Feyenoord, Reiss is ready to kick on with his Arsenal career

www.arsenal.com

Some may say he should leave for his own good but on the other hand, one could say he is being courageous and showing dedication in wanting to stay and fight for his place.Time will tell though and we should not write him off as he can still turn things around. Remember, Kai Havertz received similar crticism and he has turned things around so why can't Reiss, being the same age, tunr things aroundage too?