CL: Arsenal vs Porto | 26/09/06

[Don Pacifico]

In relation to the discussion as to not having players to target in the box, I would hope that Ade/Bendter/Lupoli could help. They could all become poachers, Ade and Bendtner would also be goot to aim at in the box. As far as I'm aware none of these players have a great tendency to stay outside the area.

 

[kel varnsen]

Why do we need a target man? We are not Bolton or Liverpool. It's about creating space and passing and running into it. And how come a lot of people don't understand the term of "controlled performance"? You don't want to concede at home so we played 4-5-1 when defending.

'controlled performances' is not what has made this team great. man u have won more than us in the last decade or so, but our fan base and general popularity have grown more than theirs. why do you think that is? to me, it's simple. not only do i personally prefer quick, attacking football, but so do most fans.

'controlled performances' are chelsea football, not arsenal football...

 

[Big Poppa]

I thought it was a very professional performance overall. Make no mistake, this was a tricky tie and I feel we handled it with great maturity. The champagne football will arrive in good time once the players become more accustomed to one another's instincts and movements. I still believe we are a work in progress and to be winning games comfortably in a situation like that is very encouraging indeed.

I can understand why many purists are a little miffed at the principle of playing 4-5-1 at home, but think of the fact that it becomes a 4-3-3 when we break forward (which is what happens for most of the game) and not just the fact that we are playing a system that looks - on paper at least - something of a cop out.

I thought this at first too, but I've seen how it has allowed us to get the best of our midfield by allowing Rosicky to play more centrally, Gilberto to player deeper and Cesc to play further forwards. Our team is not a particularly tactical team like Liverpool or Chelsea, so 4-5-1 for us is not the same as 4-5-1 would be for them.

Our players have greater freedom of movement, and even our 4-4-2 under Wenger has always ended up becoming something like 4-3-1-1 with Bergkamp or Kanu having played slightly deeper. Wenger has never been the coach who likes to pidgeon hole players in certain positions which is why he has a history of signing versatile players with similar technical characteristics and plenty of pace.

All I would say is sit tight because we've got a lot more in the tank once the team gains a bit of momentum - something which the last 2 weeks have already set in motion after a slow start. The return of Clichy will provide us with a massive extra dimension, and with him and Eboue as our wing backs, it won't really matter what system we play - we're guaranteed to stretch teams and create plenty of opportunities.

 

[Don Pacifico]

I can understand why many purists are a little miffed at the principle of playing 4-5-1 at home, but think of the fact that it becomes a 4-3-3 when we break forward (which is what happens for most of the game) and not just the fact that we are playing a system that looks - on paper at least - something of a cop out.

I thought this at first too, but I've seen how it has allowed us to get the best of our midfield by allowing Rosicky to play more centrally, Gilberto to player deeper and Cesc to play further forwards. Our team is not a particularly tactical team like Liverpool or Chelsea, so 4-5-1 for us is not the same as 4-5-1 would be for them.

Totally agree with you mate, it's somethin I've been banging on about for a while, but I have to say that at time with 4-5-1, we have been majestic, and I've been in awe at how we have controlled the game becuase of it. It is a formation that allows players like Rosicky and Hleb, who are otherwise restricted in 4-4-2, to play to their potential, and really light up the pitch.

 

[Big Poppa]

Why do we need a target man? We are not Bolton or Liverpool. It's about creating space and passing and running into it. And how come a lot of people don't understand the term of "controlled performance"? You don't want to concede at home so we played 4-5-1 when defending.

'controlled performances' is not what has made this team great. man u have won more than us in the last decade or so, but our fan base and general popularity have grown more than theirs. why do you think that is? to me, it's simple. not only do i personally prefer quick, attacking football, but so do most fans.

'controlled performances' are chelsea football, not arsenal football...

But there has always been a need for a balance Kel. We always used to batter plenty of so-so Premiership sides by just turning up, but were found wanting at the highest level in Europe when asked different sorts of questions. There's a difference between good and great teams, and you'll see that great teams such as Real Madrid at the turn of the milennium utilised the likes of Redondo and Makelele to such great effect that they could put out methodical and spectacular performances in almost equal measure.

The defining characteristic of these great European teams - Real Madrid, Milan and more recently Barcelona is that the systems they used a great number of interchangeable attacking players. The traditional perception we have in England with 4-4-2 is that, two strikers makes twice the pressure and that you need to use two wingers. I don't believe this is has been evidenced at all by the two most aesthaetically pleasing European sides in the last 5 years - Zidane, Figo & Ronaldo's Real Madrid in 2001 and Ronaldinho, Deco and Eto'os Barcelona in 2005.

The lack of 4-4-2 has not affected Lyon either, who have produced some of the most entertaining attacking football in Europe for the last 3 years. They did this by making the best of an extremely talented midfield despite playing just one out and out striker and I believe we are doing the same. Results are a good platform for us to build on and entertain. I don't really believe the system that we plays matters a great deal, the fact that we can adapt effectively to more than one however, does. For me that's something positive.

 

[lee1001]

Why do we need a target man? We are not Bolton or Liverpool. It's about creating space and passing and running into it. And how come a lot of people don't understand the term of "controlled performance"? You don't want to concede at home so we played 4-5-1 when defending.

'controlled performances' is not what has made this team great. man u have won more than us in the last decade or so, but our fan base and general popularity have grown more than theirs. why do you think that is? to me, it's simple. not only do i personally prefer quick, attacking football, but so do most fans.

'controlled performances' are chelsea football, not arsenal football...

Did we not play great attacking football against Juventus and Real Madrid playing 4-5-1 last season? We did and it resulted in our best season in Europe under Wenger's reign.

Do we abandon that philosophy and everything we've learnt and maybe return to the Arsenal that was no where near winning the competition.

Comparing us to Chelsea is nonsensical in my opinion. We play football based on passing and movement not long balls. We are not going to suddenly turn 'boring' considering all the attacking talent we have in the squad. For me the reason we are not playing exciting football at the moment is because we have only just got our confidence back and im sure the performances will improve along with the players confidence.

 

[Gurgen]

Why do we need a target man? We are not Bolton or Liverpool. It's about creating space and passing and running into it. And how come a lot of people don't understand the term of "controlled performance"? You don't want to concede at home so we played 4-5-1 when defending.

'controlled performances' is not what has made this team great. man u have won more than us in the last decade or so, but our fan base and general popularity have grown more than theirs. why do you think that is? to me, it's simple. not only do i personally prefer quick, attacking football, but so do most fans.

'controlled performances' are chelsea football, not arsenal football...

Did we not play great attacking football against Juventus and Real Madrid playing 4-5-1 last season? We did and it resulted in our best season in Europe under Wenger's reign.

No we didn't.

We soaked up the pressure and hit them on the counter attack. We looked good because we have players who always look good, but it was hardly a great display of attacking football.

 

[RocktheCasbah]

But haven't we (under Arsène) always been a counter attacking side?

 

[Gurgen]

Yes, but a different one.

We used to win the ball high up the pitch and hit them fast and hit them often. Now we win it deep (playing 4-5-1), it's pass, pass, pass for ten minutes and then we create an opening.

Anyway, we'll never be Chelsea, because we have flair players and they will look pleasing on the eye in any system. Thankfully Wenger is a manger who likes skillfull players.

It's just that I want us to be more adventurous, dominate and really pick teams apart, not pack the midfield and probe away. But I guess that will come when the currect crop of players gets into the groove.
Arsène can't propagate attacking football like he does and keep playing 4-5-1.

 

[clockwork orange]

Yes, but a different one.

We used to win the ball high up the pitch and hit them fast and hit them often. Now we win it deep (playing 4-5-1), it's pass, pass, pass for ten minutes and then we create an opening.

exactly we don't (we do it less) put enough pressure on the opposing team when we loose the ball, so we win the ball back in places here the counterattack is less dangerous, but even more important, if we play the break there's either too much weaving like Gurgen says (too little outlets, i'e' strikers, attacking mids available), or we break over the left or right side, the player can cross, looks in the box and there's hardly anybody there. There used to be players getting (even under Wenger) in that position.

 

[awooga83]

But in Wengers time the league has changed when he first arrived it was still quite attacking and not quite as many teams played that defensive. Since then the league generally has become more concerned with defence and seeing as we were the best at attacking, even more so against us.

Teams generally don't come onto us as much as they did and as a result the way we play football will inevitably change.

 

[clockwork orange]

But in Wengers time the league has changed when he first arrived it was still quite attacking and not quite as many teams played that defensive. Since then the league generally has become more concerned with defence and seeing as we were the best at attacking, even more so against us.

Teams generally don't come onto us as much as they did and as a result the way we play football will inevitably change.

There's 1 tactic which is really crap against a parked bus and it's called 4-5-1!

 

[awooga83]

There's 1 tactic which is really crap against a parked bus and it's called 4-5-1!

I agree if we played 4-5-1 and just sat back there would be no point but we were still attacking not in exactly the same way but it wasn't just a case to nullify them. The thing i would say is once we have got the goal the opposition will have to come out more and so we should to our more attacking counter attacking football but the goal gives us the luxury to do that.

Although i do agree we seem to have forgotten the way we played that game or rather we don't have the personnel to lay it as effectively anymore because when we break now its nearly always slowed down as we approach the final third.

 

[Rohit]

Anyway, we'll never be Chelsea, because we have flair players and they will look pleasing on the eye in any system. Thankfully Wenger is a manger who likes skillfull players.

It's just that I want us to be more adventurous, dominate and really pick teams apart, not pack the midfield and probe away. But I guess that will come when the currect crop of players gets into the groove.
Arsène can't propagate attacking football like he does and keep playing 4-5-1.

I think Wenger is just being a tad cautious.This team is a new team,the players are young and inexperienced.As you say we will be alright once the current crop gets into the groove.Till then we cannot afford too many games like the ones against Villa,Boro or Man City where we get nothing for our performance.

The element of self-doubt creeps into the minds of the players and the team may disintegrate.I think a bit of patience would do no harm and it's an added bonus that we continue racking up wins till then.The confidence is restored in the footballing ideals and philosophy of the manager and confidence in each other too.

We will improve slowly but surely,there have been marked improvements since the beginning of the season.Wenger recognized the need for width and we can see Hleb sticking to the byline more,i noticed we were passing the ball with relatively much more pace than we did in the first few games.

It will all come together and we will be a force to reckon with,this team has massive potential,well our squad has massive potential and till they start extracting it to the maximum what we need is results and wins and the rest will all fall into place.

 

[arsefanfan]

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/ ... 50,00.html

Cesc says it's 4-3-3 which some of us here agree. It's only when defending it looks like 4-5-1. But I'd like to repeat Poppa that formation is not all that important. In Europe we're not gonna play like we used to, despite rampant nostalgia, because Arsène has been looking for a different way to succeed. In EPL, teams have changed their way of playing against us so we're not gonna see the old style either. How can you counter attack when the box is always packed? That's why the 1st goal has become crucial, even for a game like the one with Porto, not only as a boost to young players' confidence. I admit I didn't quite understand when Arsène said again and again how important the first goal is. However, I agree that our style is still evolving as the players stay together longer. I'd love to see the number of successful one-touch pass to go up, for example, and the midfielders find better timing to get into the box.

 

[maradona]

I thought it was a commanding performance throughout, Porto never seemed to be any great threat. Our defensive unit was strong. I thoroughly enjoyed last night. It was job done thats what counts and we are/will be getting better.

PS To the Porto fans, I take back what I said about the diving and negativity, you had a go but were not enough on the night. I hope apologies are accepted.

 

[kel varnsen]

Arsène can't propagate attacking football like he does and keep playing 4-5-1.

that pretty much sums up this discussion. 4-5-1 is a catious tactic, no matter what you do. it is based on protecting the back four and overcrowding the midfield. in many cases, even to compansate for a lack of quality.

sure, these are all just numbers on a paper, but if you look at the way we played yesterday, attacking/adventurous football is not a fitting label. when porto had the ball, we defended with five midfielders across the midfield. not 4-3-3 or even 4-4-1-1; a plain and simple 4-5-1. so when we won the ball, it literally took forever to get the ball and players pushed further up the pitch.

Cesc says it's 4-3-3 which some of us here agree. It's only when defending it looks like 4-5-1.

you either play 4-3-3 or you play 4-5-1; it's one or the other. the two formations are based on many of the same tactical principles, but are distincly different in terms of how catious they are. 4-3-3 is an attacking formation. you play with three forwards up front. 4-5-1 is a catious tactic, with just one forward up front. to think that the wingers in a 4-5-1 can operate as forwards when we go forward and wingers when we defend, is simply unrealistic.

 

[11vanpersie]

eboue the one and only thats what i have to say about the game

 

[>YounGunner<]

Eboue is better then Garry Neville. Such a limited and overrated right back that Rat face.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Arsène can't propagate attacking football like he does and keep playing 4-5-1.

that pretty much sums up this discussion. 4-5-1 is a catious tactic, no matter what you do. it is based on protecting the back four and overcrowding the midfield. in many cases, even to compansate for a lack of quality.

sure, these are all just numbers on a paper, but if you look at the way we played yesterday, attacking/adventurous football is not a fitting label. when porto had the ball, we defended with five midfielders across the midfield. not 4-3-3 or even 4-4-1-1; a plain and simple 4-5-1. so when we won the ball, it literally took forever to get the ball and players pushed further up the pitch.

Cesc says it's 4-3-3 which some of us here agree. It's only when defending it looks like 4-5-1.

you either play 4-3-3 or you play 4-5-1; it's one or the other. the two formations are based on many of the same tactical principles, but are distincly different in terms of how catious they are. 4-3-3 is an attacking formation. you play with three forwards up front. 4-5-1 is a catious tactic, with just one forward up front. to think that the wingers in a 4-5-1 can operate as forwards when we go forward and wingers when we defend, is simply unrealistic.

A 4-5-1 easily turns into a 4-3-3 if you have the right players. Believe me, Barca(the best passing team) does play 4-5-1. The only reason we think its a 4-3-3 is because most of the time, they are in possession of the ball and moving forward. The opposition gives them that respect by holding back..therefore Ronaldinho/Messi spend quite a lot time upfront. But if they play an attacking minded team that has a go at them, Ronaldinho/Messi would have to spend more time in that middle helping the defense and if you have watched enough of their games..thats when Ronaldinho vacates his left position and slots inside..cos he can't do the defensive job for long. They can't afford to play a strict 4-3-3 against teams that will have a go at them. Its football ****.

Players determine your formation/tactics. You just don't impose it. To get the best out of Hleb/Roscikly you can't restrict them to play on th byline. Our formation allows our midfielders to move around and support the attack..give Cesc more space allows Gilberto to be more disciplined. We are an attacking minded team. That is in the players, you just can't change that unless you start buying diff players and Wenger is not doing that. However we gotta have balance. I was happy to see how well we adjusted to a 4-5-1 formation when we lost the ball.

I mean the advocates of attack attack attack..haven't we learned that it don't work like that in the CL? We tried it for years..and it never worked, even with our unbeaten experienced team(best team for the decade) we got exposed at the back, cos y'all seem to forget the more you push the more vulnerable your back is. And in the CL against high quality strikers all they need is one chance. If you think you should be able to create 6 chances a game, you are in lalaland my friend. Because what that means is the oppostion will be able to create probably just as much against you. It is very important NOT to concede first so the word is cautious build ups.

People are just fixated with the numbers 4-4-2....well lets take a moment and start debating the weaknesses of a 4-4-2 cos all the talk is how logical it is to have 2 strikers vs 1 striker if you are going forward. So take time and debate how logical it is to have 5 midfielders as opposed to 4 when the other team has the ball(it does happen by the way..that the other teams gets to have possession)..Do you see how different guys in our middle had Anderson in check.it wasn't a cesc vs anderson duel which might have been the case on a 4-4-2 thus restricting Cesc's movement.

In the EPL we can afford a 4-4-2 anyway cos the other teams wont come at us period. They will sit back and wait. We can even just go with 4-3-3 with those guys staying on top all the time. The opposition won't come at us.

Dont confuse naive attacking tactic to a more discplined offensive minded team. We have slowly adjusted to the latter one, we still command the same respect from opposition teams even in the CL, whether we play a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2. They know we have the players who have the technique and are mobile to cause danger, either way. But some here are *****ing for being blessed with that gift.