Cobra Kai Havertz: No Mercy

[drippin]

Meanwhile AM: “Problem? What problem? We’ve always been the bestest team ever and Havertz was a roaring success at left 8…”

Give it a break. Why such hyperbole?

I said he has clearly been a success, and explained it. He has been a success as a buy with his versatility, which was what was talked about. His 65 million price tag. And him helping Arsenal to compete for the title and UCL.

I never said he was a success at LCM per se. You just interpreted my whole point that way, and started mentioning agenda and twisting statistics.

That's why I asked, who has the agenda?

 

[db10_therza]

Give it a break. Why such hyperbole?

I said he has clearly been a success, and explained it. He has been a success as a buy with his versatility, which was what was talked about. His 65 million price tag. And him helping Arsenal to compete for the title and UCL.

I never said he was a success at LCM per se. You just interpreted my whole point that way, and started mentioning agenda and twisting statistics.

That's why I asked, who has the agenda?

I’m not doing this to you, not today I can’t be bothered quite honestly. You weren’t tagged for good reason. I’m not going to go through your posts and highlight all of the inconsistencies in what you’ve said.

 

[drippin]

I’m not doing this to you, not today I can’t be bothered quite honestly. You weren’t tagged for good reason. I’m not going to go through your posts and highlight all of the inconsistencies in what you’ve said.

Of course, because you're wrong. It's very easy for you to show where I said that Havertz as a LCM was a success. I have always said he was just okay there, especially because it's a new position for him, a new team and he has low confidence.

I didn't say it. I talked about Havertz being a success as a 65 million pound buy with his versatility. Because he has played a lot and Arsenal leads the league with the best goal difference.

You misinterpreted maybe because you got triggered, who knows, but then you started suggesting agenda and statistics twisting. Because you didn't understand what I was saying.

Maybe you didn't read the conversation you jumped in? I don't know but I expect better of you.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

Still cant believe we got him for 65 m. Biggest steal of the century.

 

[bakaboo]

Havertz was not bought to start in LCM. Partey-Rice-Ødegaard was the power midfield Arteta mentioned a while ago (and what I said was the plan last summer especially against tougher opponents). And above I mentioned that Jorginho had niggles. So Havertz was a success, as he could cover adequately in an injury crisis.

Havertz was brought in primary as LCM role, his sub role is forward. I believed Arteta even talked about it during the signing of Havertz. During initial period of the season, Arteta trying to play down the bad performance of Kai, quoting learning a new role takes time etc. Thats why Kai got the sympathy penalty kick. And stop quoting the community shield match against Man city to prove your point. Kai played FW due Jesus not available.

I am happy that Kai shown to be more useful in FW role. BUT that is becos we put an able mid in LCM. 1 thing to take note, If u noticed during the season matches, Kai will need certain type of players around him if he played LCM to be more useful.

 

[drippin]

Havertz was brought in primary as LCM role, his sub role is forward. I believed Arteta even talked about it during the signing of Havertz. During initial period of the season, Arteta trying to play down the bad performance of Kai, quoting learning a new role takes time etc. Thats why Kai got the sympathy penalty kick. And stop quoting the community shield match against Man city to prove your point. Kai played FW due Jesus not available.

I am happy that Kai shown to be more useful in FW role. BUT that is becos we put an able mid in LCM. 1 thing to take note, If u noticed during the season matches, Kai will need certain type of players around him if he played LCM to be more useful.

Yes, new role takes time, especially as Havertz has always before played more on the right side in midfield. This does not in any way prove that Havertz was bought as the long-term starting LCM.

Havertz was bought as a versatile player by Arteta's words, and Arteta also recently said that Partey-Rice-Ødegaard is the power midfield. Which he started against City in Community Shield, and won in penalties in their first proper game against a top opponent.

And yes, if you read the conversation, earlier I mentioned Zinchenko/Timber & Partey/Jorginho being needed on the field at the same time as Havertz as LCM, but this wasn't mostly possible due to injuries and niggles.

 

[bakaboo]

Yes, new role takes time, especially as Havertz has always before played more on the right side in midfield. This does not in any way prove that Havertz was bought as the long-term starting LCM.

Havertz was bought as a versatile player by Arteta's words, and Arteta also recently said that Partey-Rice-Ødegaard is the power midfield. Which he started against City in Community Shield, and won in penalties in their first proper game against a top opponent.

Do u realized what you trying to imply? If based on normal scenario, where Jesus and Partey is fit, Kai is a 65Mil, 300k wages bench player

 

[drippin]

Do u realized what you trying to imply? If based on normal scenario, where Jesus and Partey is fit, Kai is a 65Mil, 300k wages bench player

No he is not. Arsenal/Arteta tries to emulate City's squad to compete for trophies, so injuries don't ruin the season, and you can rotate with no worries. It's getting closer and closer towards a complete squad like that.

So Havertz as a 65 million false 9 who can rotate also in midfield, isn't that expensive player, for his experience. Look at the striker prices nowadays.

Nketiah will be sold, and Havertz take his place as a target man, who is not only a striker so he can play a lot, like he has this season.

 

[drippin]

Do u realized what you trying to imply? If based on normal scenario, where Jesus and Partey is fit, Kai is a 65Mil, 300k wages bench player

Btw. it's not a normal scenario that Jesus and Partey are fit. That's why proper quality depth was needed for an UCL season.

Here are some points I said in the Havertz transfer thread. Take into consideration that I also said earlier that White can play RB, when Saliba comes back. I also said that Rice can do the Xhaka role, and now Arteta referred to the "power midfield" and he has played there.

I also said that I'm fine if Havertz costs 40-60 million pounds, so 65 million was okay, especially as it turned out that Chelsea paid 80+ million pounds for Havertz after activated add-ons. Which is at least 4 million more than I said here.

Kolo Muani can't rotate Ødegaard. There isn't good enough backup for him for an UCL season.

There is already Jesus and Nketiah, so Havertz is good as he gets a lot of minutes in different positions. Which his fee and wages demand.

Okay, so let's save this post, and look who can tell "I told you so", which you guys love?

I say he will play AMF and CF, not only CF as there is already Jesus and Nketiah.

He is the perfect player to get some rest for Ødegaard, Jesus and Saka in different ways. Those are the positions that need a bit more quality depth, and Jesus can rest Saka playing RW.

People talk about LCM too, but like I said earlier, he seems to me too attacking for that role, unless against easier opposition.

I think PSV said by rumours that they want Gakpo money for Simons, which makes sense as they think he has huge potential that he will develop surely, and a long contract. That would be 45 million pounds.

Would Simons come to Arsenal, to start? No. If Havertz costs 55 million, so 10 million more, would that then mean he absolutely would come to Arsenal to start? No.

That's the price title challengers need to spend on rotational players, to not get a drop in quality.

ESR can't be depended on, because of his injuries. Nelson has been injury-prone too. That's basically one player for an UCL season. They didn't cost a transfer fee either. Vieira can't be depended on because he still has to develop more for an UCL season.

People have wanted more depth to rest Saka. Ødegaard backup being better is crucial too. Havertz is even more multifunctional than Simons, as Havertz can play false 9. Plus he has size for long balls. Jesus can play RW well.

If they get Havertz for 45 million, he is a bargain with his huge potential that can still be claimed. Chelsea paid 76 million for him, and now he has experience, has grown mentally, and adjusted to the country. He is the same age as Nketiah and a year older than ESR.

It's not a problem. Trossard has always been more of a winger. Havertz has always been more of an false 9 and AMF. Jesus has always been striker and RW.

Next year you also assess how well ESR gets back to fitness, and how Nketiah plays.

Currently only Nketiah is a normal striker only player in the squad, even if Havertz comes. With Balogun of course, but he doesn't seem like renewing.

Arteta knows to be ruthless, and you just choose the best performing players after this season, sell the rest, and buy a top striker like Osimhen who is at that point a bargain with one year left in contract.

 

[lomekian]

Just because he occupies the same spaces before and after (heatmap) doesn’t mean he has the same role right? Spaces and roles are not interchangeable, especially not in an Arteta team where he values specificity so highly.

As an attacking midfielder he was (or at least should) be expected to progress the ball to the forward. Now he is the forward…

Or is the argument here that when Havertz played left 8 he was basically a forward and we just had the two of Ødegaard and Rice in midfield? Which funnily enough is actually how it seemed for a lot of the games and again, why we struggled to create.

You’re right though in that both Havertz and Rice in midfield doesn’t work, and perhaps Havertz and Partey might have worked better but we won’t know for sure. All we know is that Partey and Xhaka worked well and Xhaka is very very different to Havertz in terms of attributes.

While I don't disagree that Havertz at 8 didn't work for the most part, the bit in bold is either simplistic or is you outlining your preferences rather than a fundamental truth. What the player should be doing is largely dependent on what those around him do/should be doing. He's never been much of a ball progressor, even when he was more overtly creative at Leverkusen, so presumably the management never put a huge onus on him for ball progression.

Now we can either or agree or disagree with that approach, but its on the manager and staff more than the player, given what has been consistent about him throughout his career.

 

[El Duderino]

Meanwhile AM: “Problem? What problem? We’ve always been the bestest team ever and Havertz was a roaring success at left 8…”

 

[db10_therza]

While I don't disagree that Havertz at 8 didn't work for the most part, the bit in bold is either simplistic or is you outlining your preferences rather than a fundamental truth. What the player should be doing is largely dependent on what those around him do/should be doing. He's never been much of a ball progressor, even when he was more overtly creative at Leverkusen, so presumably the management never put a huge onus on him for ball progression.

Now we can either or agree or disagree with that approach, but its on the manager and staff more than the player, given what has been consistent about him throughout his career.

Yeah, fair, it’s my preference.

But given the changes we implemented to encourage central progression wouldn’t you say that it ended up being the coach’s preference as well?

 

[RunTheTrap]

I'm happy that Kai receiving genuine love for his performances of late and is no longer being pandered to. However, I want to reign in on the Kai hype. The adulation reminds me of how we treated Ramsdale because let's be honest, no one wanted him here, and he surprised us with some good performances. Eventually, fans turned a 7/10 performance into a 9/10 because the bar was so low. When an upgrade comes along, we will revisit Kai and what his role is for us.

 

[drippin]

When an upgrade comes along, we will revisit Kai and what his role is for us.

I have huge doubts that Arteta buys Havertz for 65 million pounds, and plans to upgrade him any time soon.

 

[fute]

I have huge doubts that Arteta buys Havertz for 65 million pounds, and plans to upgrade him any time soon.

He extended Ramsdale last year only to replace him this year.

 

[Riou]

Havertz 100% starts next season, just hope it's upfront and not in midfield as he's very good in the former role.

 

[drippin]

He extended Ramsdale last year only to replace him this year.

Ramsdale cost half, and they did it to protect his value.

Do you really think Arsenal replaces a 65 million attacker soon after they buy him? Especially when the player is getting better and better. When is the last time anything like this has happened?

It's Trossard who they might sell if anyone, and he was much cheaper, and is older. He doesn't seem like having a place soon when the positions he plays in are upgraded. It's absolutely not Havertz that goes.

 

[fute]

Ramsdale cost half, and they did it to protect his value.

Do you really think Arsenal replaces a 65 million attacker soon after they buy him? Especially when the player is getting better and better. When is the last time anything like this has happened?

It's Trossard who they might sell if anyone, and he was much cheaper, and is older. He doesn't seem like having a place soon when the positions he plays in are upgraded. It's absolutely not Havertz that goes.

Replaced him to protect his value. Got it.

Yes. Good to replace him now because he is getting better and better. Protects his value.

Trossard is our best finisher, so that makes sense to sell him.

 

[Sanchez11]

Havertz 100% starts next season, just hope it's upfront and not in midfield as he's very good in the former role.

I think youre right mate

 

[Riou]

I think youre riou-ight mate

You can't spell riou-ight without Riou