EPL – Arsenal vs Manchester United – 4:00pm - 22/01/12

[redwhiteAustrian]

Arsh could've won us the game if he had come on for Theo as well.

 

[outlaw_member]

I don't think it is Songs fault , when one guys pressed and the others dont he just gets played around , we don't press as a cohesive unit . No pressure on the ball results in the back line being a rabble .

I generally agree that it should be a team effort, but Song's contribution is often pitiful in this regard. The first issue that he's not very quick, so he's not mobile enough to promptly close down. The second issue is that when he does attempt to do so, he doesn't go in with full ferocity, and when he does, he sells himself way too easily. The third issue is that he often doesn't go in hard, and then stops half way to stand off. He really doesn't know what to do without the ball when there are opponent players around him. Show him a ball player to dispossess, and he'll do as instructed. Put a few opponents around him as passing options for the ball carrier, and he will becomes clueless.

 

[celestis]

I don't think it is Songs fault , when one guys pressed and the others dont he just gets played around , we don't press as a cohesive unit . No pressure on the ball results in the back line being a rabble .

I generally agree that it should be a team effort, but Song's contribution is often pitiful in this regard. The first issue that he's not very quick, so he's not mobile enough to promptly close down. The second issue is that when he does attempt to do so, he doesn't go in with full ferocity, and when he does, he sells himself way too easily. The third issue is that he often doesn't go in hard, and then stops half way to stand off. He really doesn't know what to do without the ball when there are opponent players around him. Show him a ball player to dispossess, and he'll do as instructed. Put a few opponents around him as passing options for the ball carrier, and he will becomes clueless.

I don't disagree he has been off . Just wondering whether with the rest of them not pressing either . We honestly need 'legs' in this midfield . Song ain't lightning but Ramsey is slower .

 

[outlaw_member]

Why do you think we need legs? I'd say this is the most mobile midfield we have had in ages. Ramsey and Arteta both cover a lot of ground, and are somewhat quick. Song isn't a complete slow coach, either. A complete contrast to the Diaby, Cesc, Denilson/Song trio which was slower without the ball. I think we just lack technical care, especially from Ramsey. Someone with his engine, but with greater quality on the ball would be a god send. I think we should splash out on M'Vila, his intelligence, positional game and first touch passing is light years ahead of Song.

 

[celestis]

Fair enough , they look sluggish without the ball when we are trying to win it back . Just my impression . Although I have to say that Diaby is quicker than any of our current midfield crop .

We do need an upgrage in technical ability ,sure AW wants M'vila but it's whether he wants us .

In the meantime better reading of the game/decision making on the ball from one or two would see a marked improvement in the midfield .

 

[La Sagna]

Probably won't be a popular opinion but Vermaelen was god damn awful yesterday.

Apart from being partially at fault for Valencia's opener and again for Welbeck's goal, he does nothing in attack.

I know he is not naturally a left back but he could at least try once in a while to get forward and supplement the attack. Djorou, for all his deficiencies in defence has at least directly contributed to a minimum of two goals because of his play at RB, (assist for Theo at Swansea and pre-assist for Santos at Chelsea). Even if Vermaelen doesn't want to cross from the left if he is in space it at least causes the opposition to have to think about marking him and thus creating space elsewehre.

Even though Arsavin's woeful cameo has been analysed in full I will quickly give my two cents. For their second goal it shows that we definitely do not practice defending intensely during training or he just doesn't give a ****.
After he was pathetically beaten by an admittedly good winger, why in god's name is he trying to tackle him on his right side? Surely it is basic defending to try and tackle him on the left as:
a) he might have been able to get a deflection or stop the cross/pass going into the middle of the area
b) any ball that would have come back to valencia from the middle would have made him offside if arshavin was on his left not right

especially for b) why doesn't the captain of a top 20 international country realise this? its basic basic stuff.

why do we refuse to neglect practising these type of drills in training?

 

[outlaw_member]

We are less sluggish now than before, especially given that the previous midfield was better at masking it's off the ball weakness, due to greater ball retention. We are still far from great, though. As for Diaby, he's quick with the ball, but I think he's utter useless without it. His pressing often leaves me cringing. He just goes through the motions when it comes to that. Ramsey, Arteta and Wilshere all press with vigour. Song, Diaby and Denilson don't. Ironically, the latter three are the defensive options in the midfield.

 

[outlaw_member]

Probably won't be a popular opinion but Vermaelen was god damn awful yesterday.

Apart from being partially at fault for Valencia's opener and again for Welbeck's goal, he does nothing in attack.

I know he is not naturally a left back but he could at least try once in a while to get forward and supplement the attack. Djorou, for all his deficiencies in defence has at least directly contributed to a minimum of two goals because of his play at RB, (assist for Theo at Swansea and pre-assist for Santos at Chelsea). Even if Vermaelen doesn't want to cross from the left if he is in space it at least causes the opposition to have to think about marking him and thus creating space elsewehre.

Even though Arsavin's woeful cameo has been analysed in full I will quickly give my two cents. For their second goal it shows that we definitely do not practice defending intensely during training or he just doesn't give a ****.
After he was pathetically beaten by an admittedly good winger, why in god's name is he trying to tackle him on his right side? Surely it is basic defending to try and tackle him on the left as:
a) he might have been able to get a deflection or stop the cross/pass going into the middle of the area
b) any ball that would have come back to valencia from the middle would have made him offside if arshavin was on his left not right

especially for b) why doesn't the captain of a top 20 international country realise this? its basic basic stuff.

why do we refuse to neglect practising these type of drills in training?

It shouldn't be unpopular. Vermaelen is rubbish at LB. We gain nothing by playing him in place of someone like Miquel. My biggest worry is that his stint at LB will kill his confidence. I've never seen him look so unassured before.

 

[cuban]

indeed...Verms lost Valencia for the first goals and for that second...many blame Arshavin but what was Vermaelen as a left back doing?

at the start he looked decent at LB as he was at least solid at the back but it gets worse and worse..could really be confidence thing as outlaw pointed...

 

[La Sagna]

indeed...Verms lost Valencia for the first goals and for that second...many blame Arshavin but what was Vermaelen as a left back doing?

at the start he looked decent at LB as he was at least solid at the back but it gets worse and worse..could really be confidence thing as outlaw pointed...

I think for the second goal he went into "i'm a central defender" mode and was thus way too narrow. he really should have known that arshavin vs valencia is 7 times out of 10 going to end up with valencia getting a clear run.
although sometimes you usually get a central midfield dropping deeper along the wing to help out but i don't know what ours were doing (need to see it again).
Vermaelen did the left back disappearing act more than one though...at times the winger had acres of space with which to cross it in and vermaelen was defending the near post (which should have been Kos's position)

 

[La Sagna]

We are less sluggish now than before, especially given that the previous midfield was better at masking it's off the ball weakness, due to greater ball retention. We are still far from great, though. As for Diaby, he's quick with the ball, but I think he's utter useless without it. His pressing often leaves me cringing. He just goes through the motions when it comes to that. Ramsey, Arteta and Wilshere all press with vigour. Song, Diaby and Denilson don't. Ironically, the latter three are the defensive options in the midfield.

I hardly remember what Diaby looks like let alone plays like. I would say pressing wise Rosicky is our best midfielder for it, mainly because of his anticipation and has a useful habit of being in the right place at the right time.

I feel like Ramsey is being played out of position. Despite a couple of strong performances as our AM he really is too wasteful and inconsistent to play there. Before he got that horrible injury at the ****ehole Stoke he had ousted Denilson and was playing more of a midfield sweeping role full of verve and tenacity. Now hes supposed to provide the creativity before the front line and test the goalies with long shots.

His long shots are awful, I honestly don't remember the last time he hit one on target. He either skies them or squirms them wide.

 

[Glovegun]

I honestly don't think they do really do defensive training. So many basic mistakes over the years that you have to think would've been corrected by some work on the training ground. I think the give-away is the fact that they still can't really work an offside trap - it's the classic sign of a defence that doesn't have that sort of stuff drilled into them and are just trying to improvise.

We've changed personnel a lot at the back, so I think it has to be more than that. Vermaelen, Sagna, Gallas, Mertesacker, Toure, Koscielny, even Clichy, Djourou on occasion. All very good defenders yet part of a calamitous defence at Arsenal.

Quite frankly I think Wenger got lucky by inheriting players who could coach themselves at the back, and then signing one in Campbell, and relying on them to sort the defence out. It's this sort of stuff that infuriates the fans.

 

[arsenalfc0719]

Fellas, I think blaming Arshavin for Man U's second goal is like blaming Merte for not hitting the target with a shot outside the area.

Arshavin is an AM/striker, his forte has never been defending, Wenger didn't bring him on for more"defensive stability" like some are saying, Wenger brought him on because he thought Arshavin could change the game, like he has before.

I think most AM wouldn't have even have chased Valencia all the way to our on area like that, the fact that he had to shows just how unorganized and clueless our defense really is.

Wenger's mistake was taking of OX for Arshavin instead of taking Walcott the worst player on the field off, but the booing was uncalled for and plain stupid. The substitution had already been made, the only thing the booing did was demoralize our players and kill Arshavin's confidence. The fans who booed are held responsible in my eyes in part for us losing the game.

All of Wenger's subs were madness. Why bring on Park who usually isn't even on the bench for the last minutes of such an important match? stupid decision by Wenger there. He should have brought on Benayoun for Ramsey.

Game over, and now we just need to move on, because the race for 4th place keeps going and if we want it were going to have to stop ****ing up ( and I mean everyone. Wenger, players, fans, etc.) and start making the right decisions.

 

[Vinci]

To be fair, Vermaelen was way out of position when United scored 1-2. He was basically at a CB position and not properly covering AA on the left.

How they managed to score, though, with quite a few defenders there is beyond me.

 

[Cruisio]

Regarding Vermaelen, Wenger said in his program notes that he didnt think he would make the game, so i'm willing to put it down to him being put in there a little before he was ready for his bad performance

 

[Jury]

Probably won't be a popular opinion but Vermaelen was god damn awful yesterday.

Apart from being partially at fault for Valencia's opener and again for Welbeck's goal, he does nothing in attack.

I know he is not naturally a left back but he could at least try once in a while to get forward and supplement the attack. Djorou, for all his deficiencies in defence has at least directly contributed to a minimum of two goals because of his play at RB, (assist for Theo at Swansea and pre-assist for Santos at Chelsea). Even if Vermaelen doesn't want to cross from the left if he is in space it at least causes the opposition to have to think about marking him and thus creating space elsewehre.

Even though Arsavin's woeful cameo has been analysed in full I will quickly give my two cents. For their second goal it shows that we definitely do not practice defending intensely during training or he just doesn't give a ****.
After he was pathetically beaten by an admittedly good winger, why in god's name is he trying to tackle him on his right side? Surely it is basic defending to try and tackle him on the left as:
a) he might have been able to get a deflection or stop the cross/pass going into the middle of the area
b) any ball that would have come back to valencia from the middle would have made him offside if arshavin was on his left not right

especially for b) why doesn't the captain of a top 20 international country realise this? its basic basic stuff.

why do we refuse to neglect practising these type of drills in training?

It shouldn't be unpopular. Vermaelen is rubbish at LB. We gain nothing by playing him in place of someone like Miquel. My biggest worry is that his stint at LB will kill his confidence. I've never seen him look so unassured before.

How the hell can you blame Vermaelen for playing **** in a position he hates and readily acknowledge's that he's **** at? Blame the deluded **** who nonchalantly made this decision, once he had succeeded in ruining our only fit LB in a game that meant fck all.

Not only could this mess with Tv's confidence, he has already been injured probably as a result of the extra running a fullback does compared to a CB.

 

[AliBabaBrewer]

The factors in yesterday's loss are just too much to lay blame to one.

- We have Wilshere, Arteta, Sagna, Gervinho and Santos out. All 1st teamers.
- We have Jenkinson, Gibbs, Diaby, Henry and Coquelin out. All cover players who would be in the squad above the likes of Yennaris or Miquel.
- We played two centre-halves at full back positions (Due to not bringing any more in)
- One of them was Djourou (A player I don't even think is a good centre back)
- For the first goal, Vermaelen wasn't fantastic
- First half, Djourou was roasted
- Oxlade-Chamberlain (Our best player) was taken off, and Walcott (Very wasteful) was left on
- Arshavin was brought on (Not ANY good defensively)
- Wenger's now said that the sub was made because 'AOC is 18, Arshavin is captain of Russia' - A REDICULOUS meaning, in WHATEVER context you read it in. Your stature shouldn't get you minutes over a player in form
- For the second goal, Vermaelen was out of position
- For the second goal, Arshavin did crap

As far as I see it, 1 of those is Arshavin's fault.
Maybe 2 are Vermaelen's, depending on how critical you are.
However, the 2 BIGGEST ones (The sub and the lack of full backs) are Wenger's fault. They subsequently led, either directly or indirectly, to 5 or 6 of the others. Shocking.

However, it was a team effort between the 3 of them. And Djourou. Not a specific one of them.

 

[celestis]

We are less sluggish now than before, especially given that the previous midfield was better at masking it's off the ball weakness, due to greater ball retention. We are still far from great, though. As for Diaby, he's quick with the ball, but I think he's utter useless without it. His pressing often leaves me cringing. He just goes through the motions when it comes to that. Ramsey, Arteta and Wilshere all press with vigour. Song, Diaby and Denilson don't. Ironically, the latter three are the defensive options in the midfield.

I hardly remember what Diaby looks like let alone plays like. I would say pressing wise Rosicky is our best midfielder for it, mainly because of his anticipation and has a useful habit of being in the right place at the right time.

I feel like Ramsey is being played out of position. Despite a couple of strong performances as our AM he really is too wasteful and inconsistent to play there. Before he got that horrible injury at the ****ehole Stoke he had ousted Denilson and was playing more of a midfield sweeping role full of verve and tenacity. Now hes supposed to provide the creativity before the front line and test the goalies with long shots.

His long shots are awful, I honestly don't remember the last time he hit one on target. He either skies them or squirms them wide.

I'll say something even less popular Arhsavin when he could be arsed is pretty good at pressing in the final 3rd ,anticipation and acceleration .

 

[celestis]

Outie you really think Ramsey and Arteta press with vigour ? fair enough I thought the opposite but I shall keep a look out .

 

[Muharraqawi]

For those people blaming the second goal on Vermaelen, I think that your missing the fact that Valencia moved in to right back after Park came in for Rafael. Take a look at the goal again and you'll see that Vermaelen was marking their right winger at the time (Park) while Arshavin was responsible for tracking back their full back (Valencia). Fergie deliberately made that switch knowing Arshavin's defensive capabalities and it worked. If anything either Song or Rosicky should've left the midfield and helped out Arshavin because Utd had 3 or 4 players in the box.