EPL – Norwich vs Arsenal – 5:30pm – 20/10/12 - ESPN

[blrgooner]

Giroud is a difficult topic to discuss. He will score many goals as long as he receives the right type of service. However, other than last season, we have never designed a system around feeding a striker like him. His signing was definitely an opportunistic capture, rather the right one. I keep saying it, but we've always excelled with having a speedy front man. The number of times Norwich had left space in behind, but Giroud came short to receive rather than spinning in behind was staggering. Arteta and Cazorla were constantly facing the play, but had little final third movement to pick out. Our lack of width and pace will continue to hurt us against stubborn opposition.

Furthermore, we need to become more direct and turnover possession a lot more against stubborn sides, so that they can attack and consequently open up counter-opportunities for us. Also, it's utterly pointless having a 3rd midfielder on the pitch when you are lacking offensive penetration. Keeping Ramsey on in our 4-3-3 shape was just poor management. Gervinho is also not a wide forward, and he's pretty cack as it is. Lastly, we performed in this exact blunt manner only a few weeks ago against Chelsea. It's quite obvious Wenger is not doing enough to prepare his players for the challenges that await. The personnel continually change, yet the same problems remain.

Agree. Giroud is actually good at what he does and is will score goals. But like many others in our team should be more of an option which we can use rather than a sure starter. Same goes Gervinho as well.

 

[Taylor Gang Gunners]

Get a grip, you could make such a list for every single team in the world.

Manure for all their grit and passion, grinding out results and whatever else they are being praised for have had 1-6 at HOME to City, dropping out of CL to ******* Basel and Benfica, being completely taken apart at home and away to the 10th placed team of La Liga, and finally ******* up an 8 point lead to 2nd placed City, fulminating in losing the title effectively when they conceded 2 goals at home against Everton to make it from 4-2 to 4-4. And that all was just last season.


We were obviously awful yesterday as everybody pointed out, felt physically sick after the game. However, every single team in the world has days like this, it's not our first loss and won't be our last either. No need to go into a meltdown because of this, players need to look at themselves and show up against Schalke.

Giroud needs to calm down, no need to always do it spectacular, keep it simple, just control the ball and smash it in the net. Gnabry looked very bright, good pace, dribbling, great ball control, composed on and off the ball, always made himself available for a pass. Think he'll have 10-20 apps for us at the end of the season.

Not saying we're the ONLY team who has such bad fortune, I'm saying it seems to happen to us more frequently. Could be my supporter bias, and the fact that I'm only heavily interested with Arsenal's numbers but I'm sure its not.

This performance isn't a complete surprise, which is what is so disappointing.

 

[Glovegun]

Completely agree with Goonerwash, and as much as I love Arsène and will sing his praises to the high heavens at every available opportunity, he has his flaws too.

The first one, in my opinion, is a complete inability to drill a defence, which is somewhat paradoxical considering he signs good defenders (different thing).

Secondly, a snobbish indifference to the solid basics of the game like heading or tackling.

Thirdly, I understand that sometimes silence is the best policy, and I don't want a 'shouty screamy' tracksuit manager like McCarthy or O'Neill, but sometimes the players seem to lack guidance on the pitch because Wenger just sits there and watches rather than involves himself and gives them instructions.

Fourthly, as you said, he sends the team out to play in a particular way and then sticks to it. I've very, very rarely seen Wenger make a game-changing substitution, which links into my final point.

Fifthly, we're only amateurs and Wenger is a terrific manager. However, there are some things even amateurs can spot. For example, if you're facing a team all under six foot, it makes sense to target them at set-pieces. When we had Gallas and Toure at the back, both good players but not fantastic in the air, we'd leak so many goals from set-pieces. But it seems that the more his method is shown up, and the more people call for a change, the more it strengthens his resolve to persist with it. It honestly feels that sometimes he prefers proving people wrong to success.

I think the guy has been hamstrung by the board since we've moved to the Emirates, and let down by the players he put so much trust in. After all, the youth policy has worked to the extent that he managed to turn players like Fabregas, van Persie, Nasri, Song, Wilshere and Chamberlain into world-class (or potentially world-class) performers without spending a great deal, and I blame the board more than Wenger for letting them go.

But sometimes I put our defeats down to managerial errors and Norwich was one of them.

 

[VAVAVOOM 14]

But sometimes I put our defeats down to managerial errors and Norwich was one of them.

With that being said, there is absolutely no excuse for a team stacked with internationals not to get a result - or at least score a goal - against a lowly side like Norwich.

These are professional footballers. Wenger shouldn't have to hold their hands for them to beat a relegation threatened team.

 

[pikey2000]

Totally agree with you Glovegun on his lack of flexibility.

Great we have a footballing ethos that is ingrained in the club and has produced some fine talent and great football but one of Arsène's most frustrating habits is his stubborness, he simply will not change formation/personel to suit the opponent.

Whilst this seems admirable on paper that we attempt to play our game and forget the opponent the fact remains football is VERY tactical and to completely ignore your opponent is not only stupid but arrogant.

The only time I ever see him change formation mid game is when we are leading and he wants to bring stability and removes an attacking player for an offensive or when in the last 10 mins when we have conceded a poor goal and are desperate.

For me that's the main difference between Wenger and Ferguson, Ferguson changes the shape of his side to meet the demands of the next match.

Is it any wonder that we have been subjected to so many Norwich style games of going behind and chasing or frustrated with tippy tappy football and not being able to break down the opponent? Not really when you look at how predictable our lineup/formation/style of play has become.

 

[jaguars4ever]

individuals dont make the system, the SYSTEM makes the system. tactics, motivation, directness and using the advantages you have, Im really disgusted of these RATINGS of individual players you constantly do here.

Your disgust is misplaced and unjustified.

I never claimed that player ratings are a substitute for a system. This couldn't be further than the truth.

Player ratings determines how well each individual player performed within the system. It's a much narrower concept.

Therefore, even if one has a good system, if the players do not fulfill their respective duties within that system, then the overall performance will be less than desired.

So while having a working system is the foundational requirement for success, it would be foolish and ignorant to discount the extent to which the individual components (i.e. the player ratings) contribute to the success of that system.

 

[Glovegun]

I think Barcelona in the Nou Camp in 2011 was the only time I've seen him really set up shop according to the opposition. He did make a decision about ten years ago to only play one of Bobby Pires and Freddie Ljungberg away from home with Parlour on the right instead, but apparently that came from Adams & co, not Wenger.

 

[Block10Gooner]

When you change all the players in an attempt to change the mentality on the pitch and they still fudge up like this... then it's not the players that are the problem.

 

[Glovegun]

When you change all the players in an attempt to change the mentality on the pitch and they still fudge up like this... then it's not the players that are the problem.

Which is what most of us have been saying about the defence for years.

Gallas, Vermaelen, Sagna, Mertesacker, Clichy, Koscielny, Toure, Gibbs - all very good defenders but the same defensive mistakes kept on happening. Which shows that it's to do with the managerial strategy/ systems in place and not the individuals.

If you gave George Graham four of the eight I've listed he'd turn them into world beaters.

 

[outlaw_member]

I think Barcelona in the Nou Camp in 2011 was the only time I've seen him really set up shop according to the opposition. He did make a decision about ten years ago to only play one of Bobby Pires and Freddie Ljungberg away from home with Parlour on the right instead, but apparently that came from Adams & co, not Wenger.

I thought that we were concsiously sitting back this season, so to enable more space in the attack, but we haven't seemed to maintain it. Sometimes we need to be less efficient in the middle third, take more risks, lose the ball more often, so as to create a more open game. If we are keeping possession well but aren't playing at a high enough tempo, then we will always end up struggling against a deep defence.

 

[The_Playmaker]

I think Barcelona in the Nou Camp in 2011 was the only time I've seen him really set up shop according to the opposition. He did make a decision about ten years ago to only play one of Bobby Pires and Freddie Ljungberg away from home with Parlour on the right instead, but apparently that came from Adams & co, not Wenger.

I thought that we were concsiously sitting back this season, so to enable more space in the attack, but we haven't seemed to maintain it. Sometimes we need to be less efficient in the middle third, take more risks, lose the ball more often, so as to create a more open game. If we are keeping possession well but aren't playing at a high enough tempo, then we will always end up struggling against a deep defence.

It is common knowledge that to stop Arsenal you sit deep, prevent us counter attacking with intelligent fouls, make sure you get behind the ball as quick as you can, force us wide by packing the middle.

Norwich had their shape spot on, but that shouldn't be a problem. It should make it a lot harder to score, but the fact is that they have a game plan and it is to prevent us scoring and knick one at the other end. If however, we were to score the first goal, their game plan would go out the window and they would attempt to go forward leaving themselves exposed at the back.

The problem with this Arsenal team is that they are far too relaxed. Whenever we go 1-0 down (which unfortunately is quite often) I don't have confidence that we will turn the game around. When I watch Utd I just have a feeling that they will score and once they do they will kick on.

The problem for me lies within our mentality and our inability to take men on. If you pass the ball you are going to come up against teams who deny you space and try to stop you from playing. There are two ways around this and they are the most simple things, that we haven't done unless we have been in a big game. We need to move the ball quicker and players need to take other players on.

I really don't understand why we play so slowly. It allows the opposition to jog across the pitch while keeping their shape. We should be able to fizz the ball about taking a maximum of 3 touches in order to move them about and at least tire them, because that's what forces them to make mistakes.

Other than running off the ball, beating a man is the most efficient way of creating space. It forces players to come out of position as they have to make challenges to cover. That is why we miss Diaby so much when he doesn't play. His ability to bypass 2 or 3 mid fielders simply by driving causes chaos on the opposition defences.

In our squad we have players who can drive forward. I'm not talking about beating a man with clever touches or simply wrong footing opposition, I'm talking about players who drive forward at full pace committing their entire body to sprinting with the ball forcing a challenge from the opposition.

Currently in our holding roles, we have three players who can drive forward. Diaby, Wilshere and Coquelin. We have a left back in Gibbs who can drive forward. We have Chamberlain who can beat a man and commit to the byline and we have Gnabry who has absolutely no fear. We also have Rosicky.

We also have players who take 6 touches on the ball, slow the game down, go side ways and just won't put their body on the line. If your not going to have players in the side who are willing to take players on, or who are prohibited from doing so from the fear of losing the ball, which is ridiculous as we were not playing Barcelona then you have to at least move the ball quickly. If we move the ball slowly, and refuse to take players on, then this Arsenal team nullifies itself.

If I was facing Barcelona and they played at the pace we did and instead of trying to go past my players, simply turned back in order to keep possession I would be relieved. If they were pinging the ball all over the place, with quick one touch and two touch passing, moving all over the place, showing urgency and using Iniesta and Messi to run at players, I would be run into the ground and probably panicking if I got booked.

The same applies to Arsenal. Teams are happy to see them pass slow and refuse to take players on. We should be working that ball quick enough to get our runner into a one on one situation. If he fails to beat the man we start again, until he does so.

 

[outlaw_member]

If a team is sitting deep for large periods of the game and remains largely untroubled, then it means that the dominant side is having too much of the ball and doing little with it. You can either improve your ability on the ball, which is difficult to do without improving the quality of the personnel, or you can coerce the opposition to come out by 'giving' them the ball. The latter is a more practical solution as it's relatively easier to implement, and you can do so by reducing the number of ineffective short passes, and playing direct enough so that possession is turning over at a higher rate.

 

[albakos]

Holt goes on details about how they prepared to play against us.

Grant Holt insists that Norwich City's surprise 1-0 win over Arsenal in the Premier League at Carrow Road on Saturday was no fluke.

The home side took their opportunity with both hands as Holt bagged the opener in the first half after Vito Mannone spilled Alex Tettey's strike.

Last season, Paul Lambert's Norwich went to the Emirates and picked up an unlikely point in a six-goal thriller, and Holt noted that they drew inspiration from that performance while they also worked with a similar plan.

"We looked at a few things we did last year. We ruffled them up a bit, got crosses in and worked them," Holt said after the match.

"We knew we could that again today. Obviously they have (Per) Mertesacker and lads who can head the ball, but if you put it in the right areas they can't get to it and I thought we were good for the win.

"Wes (Hoolahan) took up some unbelievable positions when the ball was coming in, and when you've got someone who is prepared to get in behind you in works well.

"We had a game plan (and we) worked on it all week. We knew Arsenal could come here with an attacking threat.

"We worked in the week with the bodies we've got, obviously some were away on international duty, but the good thing for us is we have a great squad who can train all week and do it correctly.

"You've just got to look at the way we attacked down there (at the Emirates), the way we defended as a unit and the way we worked. If you look at the game down there last year we stretched them a lot, moved them around and when we lost the ball we re-grouped quickly.

"We took the same beliefs into today, worked with the manager about keeping our shape and filling in for people out of position and it worked."

The win was manager Chris Hughton's first in the Premier League since taking over in the summer, but Holt was quick to bat away suggestions that the Canaries had been suffering a hangover after the former Birmingham boss' introduction.

"I don't think so," Holt said. "The gaffer has come in, he has had us all summer, he has worked on some things. But it is different, pre-season and warm up games.

"You can only implement so many things. No-one can ever replicate the Premier League, you can't replicate the games and the test you are getting week-in week-out, going to Stamford Bridge (for example).

"It's easy to say you're going to Stamford Bridge and defending for 90 minutes, but it is hard work. The manager has put things in place and that's what he wants, for us to be a bit more defensive, not gung-ho."

One of the stars at the back for Norwich, Sebastien Bassong, was also understandably delighted with the result, hailing it as 'perfect', but he does not feel league positions should be worried about so early in the campaign.

"We aren't looking too much at the table as it is still early in the season," said the Cameroon international. "We have just got to concentrate on ourselves, keep working and if we are in a good position in the table that is a plus.

"If you would have said 0-0 to me before the match I would have taken it. So 1-0 against Arsenal is perfect.

"It was difficult. Arsenal is such a good team, they have such good players. I think we made the game easier for us as we were really at it from the start. We had the chance to score which made a big difference."

Bassong moved to England in 2008 when he left Metz for Newcastle and by his account he settled fairly rapidly before becoming a regular start for the Magpies, but his opponent on Saturday - Olivier Giroud - has had a much tougher introduction.

Bassong, however, is not worried for the France international.

"When I came to Newcastle I adapted myself quite quickly, so I was lucky. I think he will do well," Bassong said.

"He scored a good goal for France against Spain, and the week before he scored against West Ham, so I think he is on his way to performing and he is around such good players so I'm not worried for him."

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.soccerway.com/news/2012/October/22/holt-revels-in-norwich-defeat-of-arsenal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.soccerway.com/news/2012/Octo ... f-arsenal/</a>


Wenger seems to have been stumped by their tactics.

Maybe he was fooled by the fact Liverpool rolled through Norwich so thinking we will go past them at same ease, made him to work with the players enough to motivate.

Still bitter with the shocking impotence of our team on Saturday.

Hope we pick up against Schalke.

 

[Rain Dance]

Barcelona also needed Messi to draw defenders to man mark/double team him. This will create a chance for others. Hence, I can understand Wenger experiment with the ball greedy Gervinho. Of course, cheap imitation wont work as good as the original but still workable IF the midfielders are able to spot the weak links provided. Here is where Ramsey tip the balance

 

[The_Playmaker]

If a team is sitting deep for large periods of the game and remains largely untroubled, then it means that the dominant side is having too much of the ball and doing little with it. You can either improve your ability on the ball, which is difficult to do without improving the quality of the personnel, or you can coerce the opposition to come out by 'giving' them the ball. The latter is a more practical solution as it's relatively easier to implement, and you can do so by reducing the number of ineffective short passes, and playing direct enough so that possession is turning over at a higher rate.

So you would be happy with Arsenal giving Norwich the ball, when we can't even defend the second ball. I'd rather Arsenal had the ball. We should only be forced to defend when we really have to considering we can't actually defend very well. Giving the other team the ball is **** if they are capable of hitting the ball long.

 

[eye4goal]

Agree with Outlaw. We've scored plenty on the counter this season and have done well in games we were attacked in(City, Liverpool and West Ham). Walcott's goal against West Ham was againt the run of play for me(Podolski at Liverpool too). I expect us to have a better record away from home than at home as things stand, although the return of Wilshere might help us break down passive teams more

 

[evoh_1]

from front to back no-one showed up in the slightest and we didn't look up for it from about 6 minutes in and nothing changed after the goal, in fact norwich should have scored again while we barely had a good chance at goal.

Terrible perfromance capped by Wenger's lackadaisical naming of a player he has said isn't ready on the as is we were gonna just roll them within 30 mins and could just chill bringing on players to get minutes. Disgraceful attitude from the top down at this club which allows us to thing we are the best while having done nothing to justify the attitude.

Norwich had weeks to prepare and train while our players were mostly away with their countries but it doesn't excuse not even bothering or changing when htye knew we were in a dogfight.

I'd say we have already dropped 7 poitns we shouldn't have:

sunderland 3 points - missed chances

chelsea 1 point - missed chances / GK tw#t out

norwich 3 points - attitude / GK tw#t out

 

[dreamLord]

By the way, how shocking are we at attacking from set pieces? Mertesacker has yet to score, hasn't he?

 

[Glovegun]

Cazorla's delivery from corners has been terrible. Hits the first man so often.

 

[Giroud]

If a team is sitting deep for large periods of the game and remains largely untroubled, then it means that the dominant side is having too much of the ball and doing little with it. You can either improve your ability on the ball, which is difficult to do without improving the quality of the personnel, or you can coerce the opposition to come out by 'giving' them the ball. The latter is a more practical solution as it's relatively easier to implement, and you can do so by reducing the number of ineffective short passes, and playing direct enough so that possession is turning over at a higher rate.

So you would be happy with Arsenal giving Norwich the ball, when we can't even defend the second ball. I'd rather Arsenal had the ball. We should only be forced to defend when we really have to considering we can't actually defend very well. Giving the other team the ball is **** if they are capable of hitting the ball long.

It's not giving the opposition the ball, it's taking more risks in possession to score by playing balls through the opposition or trying to hit Giroud with some long balls. Like outlaw has explained, if we can't break through the opposition we should start taking risks to open up the game up. We've only conceded six goals in the league this season with an average third choice keeper, our defence is solid enough. We should be taking more risks when we're losing anyway, a club like ours who wants to compete near the top has to push on when losing to try and get the three points.