EPL – Stoke vs Arsenal – 1:30pm – 26/8/12 - SS1

[DontPushMe]

Last I'll say on the matter..

Now, I think the effort was a glorious one, and I'm pleased he's got the courage and confidence in his ability to try it, but please stop talking rubbish. He could have made the pass and Ramsey would have been CLEAR.

He could have chipped it first time, had he seen him, or taken a touch and layed it across into Ramseys path with his right foot.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvXyBrGnD90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvXyBrGnD90</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you still think the pass wasn't on after viewing that, then god help you.

Having watched that again, you're right. I remembered it a bit differently. The defender marking Giroud would of made it a difficult pass but it definitly could of been done. Still, i can only think back to Ramsey's last 1 on 1 (where he chose not to pass to RVP) to say that ramsey finishing that was far from a sure thing

 

[arsenalfc0719]

I can't believe the fuss over this, this was just one bad decision in about a million we made a day, and like others have said we don't even know what would have happened if he did try to pass it to Ramsey, there was still a lot left to be done for it to end in the back of the net. He saw the chance and took it, there were a lot worse decisions made during the game.

In any case, if our players would have been making the right choices we wouldn't be talking about a 90th minute diminutive chance.

 

[Anzac]

TBH I'm not that worried by our lack of goals thus far as IMO that will come as the team gains confidence, and when it does someone is going to take an absolute flogging at some time this season.
That said I still expect there to be some awkward 1-0 type results as it gradually comes together,
and we can also expect to continue to drop points we shouldn't,
and may well loose this weekend.

IMO the positives seen to date are far more important at this stage:
* Cazorla is what we've been crying out for since we moved to a 3 man midfield;
* Giroud is going to be a handful as target man in open play;
* Very impressed by the attitude & physical side to Podolski;
* Arteta is so composed it inspires confidence from those around him;
* the defence in general is looking more composed & assured.

TBH I didn't expect our newbies to be looking as competant this early & to be showing their individual attributes as clearly.
As the commentators said it's been a LONG time since we've seen these aspects in an Arsenal side - individually or collectively.

IMO the main error made was when we subbed off Cazorla we had no one to hit those long direct balls to release Walcott & Ox early from deep.
Wasn't comfortable seeing Rambo as AMC again - would have preferred him to swap with Diaby, but I'm guessing AW wanted Diaby's height deeper.

Wasn't impressed by Walcott again - provided little in the way of either width or penetration.
Podolski showed how to hang inside & slightly deeper off teh striker to exploit the sapce in behind & link with the AMC.
At least Gervinho tries even if he is equally ineffective as Walcott.
Diaby was doing ok until he looked to take the ball forward at feet = he then inherited Song's penchant for loosing possession.

 

[Beksl]

IMO substituting Cazorla was more of a fitness issue rather than Wenger's tactical ineptness or whatever you want to call it.

 

[outlaw_member]

We've merely returned back to the age old Arsenal problem, struggling to break down deep lying defences. When you look beyond the surface, you will realise how flawed our attacking game is, and how Wenger has failed to heed the lessons of yesteryear.

Our offensive game is incredibly narrow and heavily centralised, usually consisting of 10 outfielders whose first instinct either by design or instruction is to come infield. The opponent in their infinite wisdom have clued on to this game plan, and thus have formed a defensive formation which involves two banks of four which are incredibly tight and completely fortified in the middle of the pitch. So how does this pan out on the field, we end up witnessing our team trying to pass its way through the very area that the opponent has most of its strength. It's akin to a general sending all of his troops to attack the very centre of his enemy. The concept of flanking is completely beyond Wenger and our team, and no one signing is going to solve our problem. Our entire game plan is fallacious and flawed, and we're going to continue to suffer until we see a fundamental change in our attacking patterns.

Our problem is width, a complete and utter lack of width. We have no idea how to stretch the opponent and create holes in their defensive lines. Instead of throwing a few hooks to open up the chin, we spend 12 rounds jabbing at the guard of the opponent, hoping that eventually his arms will fall. It's ridiculous and pathetic. We suffered this problem back when Nasri, Cesc and Van Persie were a part of our team, and it's only going to become more difficult with inferior players like Podolski, Giroud and Cazorla. We are trying to force our way through the most robust part of the opposition, and as long as we continue do so, we will routinely fire blanks. It's an inevitability.

There is a solution to our problem even if we don't alter our game plan, and that is to employ attacking fullbacks who constantly provide width and most importantly, take advantage of the space out-wide. As long as we continue to start blunt fullbacks in the form of Jenkinson, Sagna and Gibbs, we won't have the necessary width we require. The alternative solution is to have wide forwards who stay wide for as long as possible, before they come inside when the attack is in it's final stage. However, we also fall down in this category as our wide players almost always look to come inside. Just compare Podolski's positioning as a LFW for Germany, and how often and frequently he drifts inside in the same position for us. The only two players who offer width in the attack, are the very two who happen to be the most frustrating members of our team. Gervinho and Walcott.

Barcelona of last season, and the Spanish NT of the Euro's highlighted how removing width from the possession game can adversely affect the team. Both saw their performances dip relative to their previously set uber-high standards. We are in essence very similar to the Spanish NT team of the Euro's who were very central in their play, lacked any form of width, and were ultimately a bore to watch. We are almost exactly the same, except that we don't have Iniesta, Silva, Fabregas and Xavi to bail us out. Also, they at least had a certain Jordi Alba who constantly rampaged up and down the flank, and provided quality down the flank. We have Santos who hasn't yet been utilised this season.

Wenger needs to start taking the flanks seriously, and implement quality width to our game. Again, centrally focused attackers isn't inherently a problem, as long as there are marauding fullbacks on the outside, but when you have to rely on mediocre attackers like Gibbs and Jenkinson/Sagna, you will have problems, as we most certainly have.

 

[MaestroCesc]

Its ridiculous how people are still syaing Ramsey would have missed it, how do you know? He might have worked on his finishing and have more confidence and composure now, if he hadnt had those things he still had a good chance of scoring. He will never be able to score if he doesnt get a chance...

 

[infineon]

Wenger needs to start taking the flanks seriously, and implement quality width to our game. Again, centrally focused attackers isn't inherently a problem, as long as there are marauding fullbacks on the outside, but when you have to rely on mediocre attackers like Gibbs and Jenkinson/Sagna, you will have problems, as we most certainly have.

I totally agree with this. Our full back situation is problematic for the type of game we play. We need full backs who are capable of making deeper, more penetrating runs. Jenkinson, fine, young and perhaps the quality isn't even there in the first place but Sagna is more of a defender (if he were taller, he'd be a world class centre back) and Gibbs is, well, frail and seems to have lost the attacking zest he had as a kid. Santos is actually a winger.

What is easier? Gervinho/Walcott/Ox trying to dribble past 2-3 players on their own or hem combining with their full backs, making overlapping runs and passes and flying past the opposing defenders?

 

[outlaw_member]

Chamberlain was terrible when he came on today. I think I prefer him centrally at the moment, out wide he has a tendency to run himself into trouble.

He does the same in the middle. Anyway, he should ideally be out on loan.

Our lack of tempo is another problem, which is exacerbated by our short passing tendencies. There were a few opportunities to counter, and even reliable players like Cazorla and Arteta opted for shorter indecisive passes, rather than moving it forward.

Apparently, Wenger used to train his earlier teams to move the ball as quickly as quickly as possible from one end to another, through as few passes as possible. A drill which no doubt developed our potent counter-attack. I don't know if he removed this aspect from his training methods, but it doesn't seem like we do so any more.

 

[fabo]

IMO substituting Cazorla was more of a fitness issue rather than Wenger's tactical ineptness or whatever you want to call it.

Cazorla went missing second half imo, could be a fitness thing but he did look quieter after that poor tackle first half.

Class is obvious though, even at this stage.

 

[phenn]

I don't understand why we can't cross the ball with the players we have wide. We can work a good crossing position for our wide players all freaking day and then we put in absolute crap. Now with Giroud it's even worse because that boy has some serious physical presence.

Not that I want to play like Everton, but the service they were putting in to Jelavic and Fellaini with Hibbert and Baines was giving Man Utd absolute nightmares. One of the best ways to break down a team sitting deep like Stoke is to rain crosses in and just cause problems. When we can't get good service in it just jams up and always will. It's hard to control good service the way you can short passes.

All in all though, I was impressed by our physicality. We looked fairly comfortable against Stoke at the Brittania, which is more than you could have said since they came to the Prem, really.

 

[Giroud]

Wenger needs to start taking the flanks seriously, and implement quality width to our game. Again, centrally focused attackers isn't inherently a problem, as long as there are marauding fullbacks on the outside, but when you have to rely on mediocre attackers like Gibbs and Jenkinson/Sagna, you will have problems, as we most certainly have.

Do you think Gibbs has the potential to become a decent attacker? He has the pace and a decent dribbling ability to beat defenders but he rarely seems to overlap and attack the opposition back line. Most of the time he supports our wide players from behind and passes the ball back into midfield. I think he could adapt his game to become more aggressive on the ball and attack the opposition back line providing width. Wenger needs to raise his confidence so he feels comfortable leaving his natural position at fullback. On the right its a different story, Coquelin is probably the only one who can provide width and the ability to drive at defences. Unfortunately he is not ready for regular first team starts.

 

[infineon]

Apparently, Wenger used to train his earlier teams to move the ball as quickly as quickly as possible from one end to another, through as few passes as possible. A drill which no doubt developed our potent counter-attack. I don't know if he removed this aspect from his training methods, but it doesn't seem like we do so any more.

Two words: Thierry Henry. Those tactics were designed to make the most out of his footballing and athletic ability. We'd prolly be playing the same way if we could RvP and Walcott were the same player!

 

[The Sleeper]

I agree that we mostly try to play through the middle, but I don't agree this is the problem. It's a question of numbers. We are playing with only 2 or 3 offensive centrally-situated players - our forward, our AMC, and SOMETIMES our support MC.

Against teams employing a 4-5-1, that means our 2 or 3 are being confronted by 4 or 5 opposition players. Do the maths. Even if our centre-players dribble past one, and then two players... they'd still need to dribble past a THIRD player in order for us to have the upper hand numbers-wise. How often is this going to happen?

We have pretty good short-passing ability in general. It isn't so much a matter of space that we need, but rather players becoming unmarked, and there just aren't enough offensive centre-situated players in our formation to achieve this, and to play the game we are trying to play (short-passing through middle), successfully. As soon as we advance into the final third, where the opposition are sitting deep, our forward-passing options decrease very rapidly.

A 4-1-2-1-2, or variations such as 4-1-3-2 or 4-3-1-2 (i.e. no wingers), means you have 5 such players in advanced central positions, not 2 or 3. You have more options for one-two's, and any good dribbler can go past just one opposition player and that means we have the upper hand numbers-wise, and markers have to decide whether to leave their man and challenge the dribbler, or stay with their man, allowing the dribbler (Cazorla, The Ox, for example) to continue their run.

As the opposition fullbacks and wingers came inside to help their team-mates, then space would open up on the flanks, for the runs of our full-backs or one of our two strikers who'd drifted to a wing looking for space, possibly pulling a centreback with them, etc.

This is what I'd like to see when it's obvious that a team is going to employ a 4-5-1 and sit deep against us.

The alternative is to sign 4 or 5 new players who will do their job better than the ones at present. And I can't see that being possible at this stage.

 

[Uncle Mike]

I was relieved that a defense with Mannone, Jenkinson and Diaby in it didn't allow a goal.

But we gotta score. Hopefully, having played together a bit more, Podolski and Giroud will be more ready to score.

I wanted Gervinho to work out, but I think it may be time to sit him. I can't fault his hustle or his enthusiasm, but he's just not getting the job done.

Walcott needs to be started, especially against clogging teams like the Dirty Mackems and the Dirtier Stokunts.

Liverpool's decidedly un-old-Liverpool-like defense may be just what the doctor ordered for our as yet misfiring attack.

 

[redanddread]

Watched a replay the game on Arsenal player and without the emotion of watching it live my relative objective summary of the game would be:

1. Defensively we were organized and kept or shape when we didn't have the ball. The team as a whole played very well defensively

2. Our more defensive attitude didn't lend to the full backs attacking as much as normal and in particular Jenkison, thus Gervinho & Theo were not as effective on the RHS.

3. Our passing between defense and midfield and amongst the midfielders was excellent and intelligent. We very rarely gave the ball away in dangerous areas. Passing in the final 1/3 was slightly off.

4. The understanding between our front 3 is in it's embryonic stages and will take time to gel.

5. Arteta was magnificent. Diaby was excellent alongside him and provided great defensive support when required. He tired as the match went on but put in a great shift overall IMO.

6. Cazorla is at home in the EPL and can deal with the hurly burly of the league.


Before the season started I was most interested to see how our defense would shape up under Steve Bould. Although, only two games into this Bould revolution it has put a smile on my face. Who would have thought boring, boring Arsenal would make me happy. Well it has. We can build a very good team with this foundation. Hopefully, it will stand firm against the onslaught at Anfield this weekend.

 

[redanddread]

We've merely returned back to the age old Arsenal problem, struggling to break down deep lying defences. When you look beyond the surface, you will realise how flawed our attacking game is, and how Wenger has failed to heed the lessons of yesteryear.

Our offensive game is incredibly narrow and heavily centralised, usually consisting of 10 outfielders whose first instinct either by design or instruction is to come infield. The opponent in their infinite wisdom have clued on to this game plan, and thus have formed a defensive formation which involves two banks of four which are incredibly tight and completely fortified in the middle of the pitch. So how does this pan out on the field, we end up witnessing our team trying to pass its way through the very area that the opponent has most of its strength. It's akin to a general sending all of his troops to attack the very centre of his enemy. The concept of flanking is completely beyond Wenger and our team, and no one signing is going to solve our problem. Our entire game plan is fallacious and flawed, and we're going to continue to suffer until we see a fundamental change in our attacking patterns.

Our problem is width, a complete and utter lack of width. We have no idea how to stretch the opponent and create holes in their defensive lines. Instead of throwing a few hooks to open up the chin, we spend 12 rounds jabbing at the guard of the opponent, hoping that eventually his arms will fall. It's ridiculous and pathetic. We suffered this problem back when Nasri, Cesc and Van Persie were a part of our team, and it's only going to become more difficult with inferior players like Podolski, Giroud and Cazorla. We are trying to force our way through the most robust part of the opposition, and as long as we continue do so, we will routinely fire blanks. It's an inevitability.

There is a solution to our problem even if we don't alter our game plan, and that is to employ attacking fullbacks who constantly provide width and most importantly, take advantage of the space out-wide. As long as we continue to start blunt fullbacks in the form of Jenkinson, Sagna and Gibbs, we won't have the necessary width we require. The alternative solution is to have wide forwards who stay wide for as long as possible, before they come inside when the attack is in it's final stage. However, we also fall down in this category as our wide players almost always look to come inside. Just compare Podolski's positioning as a LFW for Germany, and how often and frequently he drifts inside in the same position for us. The only two players who offer width in the attack, are the very two who happen to be the most frustrating members of our team. Gervinho and Walcott.

Barcelona of last season, and the Spanish NT of the Euro's highlighted how removing width from the possession game can adversely affect the team. Both saw their performances dip relative to their previously set uber-high standards. We are in essence very similar to the Spanish NT team of the Euro's who were very central in their play, lacked any form of width, and were ultimately a bore to watch. We are almost exactly the same, except that we don't have Iniesta, Silva, Fabregas and Xavi to bail us out. Also, they at least had a certain Jordi Alba who constantly rampaged up and down the flank, and provided quality down the flank. We have Santos who hasn't yet been utilised this season.

Wenger needs to start taking the flanks seriously, and implement quality width to our game. Again, centrally focused attackers isn't inherently a problem, as long as there are marauding fullbacks on the outside, but when you have to rely on mediocre attackers like Gibbs and Jenkinson/Sagna, you will have problems, as we most certainly have.

Whilst agreeing that there are better attacking fullbacks out there, you have to take into consideration that the team has played in a more defensively responsible fashion so far this season. Whereas last season we often caught out and hit on the break due to our "marauding" fullbacks being out of psotion it seems like Bould has the FB's maintaining better positional awareness and has reigned them in somewhat.

 

[Rain Dance]

@outlaw
even if we have marauding fullbacks, its pointless when the players lack awareness to attack the cross made. Isn't that the problem? Miscommunication between the crosser and the targetman often happen. Giroud and poldi actually being inside the penalty box during those crosses are a welcome change although Giroud tendency to cross baffle me.

Why don't you discuss about our set play? We have 12-13 corners and numerous free kick and most of them fail miserably.. This is also very crucial in a tight game.

 

[Giroud]

Whilst agreeing that there are better attacking fullbacks out there, you have to take into consideration that the team has played in a more defensively responsible fashion so far this season. Whereas last season we often caught out and hit on the break due to our "marauding" fullbacks being out of psotion it seems like Bould has the FB's maintaining better positional awareness and has reigned them in somewhat.

Don't think we had marauding fullbacks last season either, except for Santos of course. Gibbs would rarely attack the opposition defensive line while Jenkinson and Sagna would just cross the ball from deep.

 

[Arsenal in Aus]

IMO the positives seen to date are far more important at this stage:
* Cazorla is what we've been crying out for since we moved to a 3 man midfield;
* Giroud is going to be a handful as target man in open play;
* Very impressed by the attitude & physical side to Podolski;
* Arteta is so composed it inspires confidence from those around him;
* the defence in general is looking more composed & assured.

TBH I didn't expect our newbies to be looking as competant this early & to be showing their individual attributes as clearly.

Podolski showed how to hang inside & slightly deeper off the striker to exploit the space in behind & link with the AMC.

Spot on Anzac. All three signings have impressed me and they really are showing their individual qualities sooner than expected. They're not quite gelling together yet, but they're not far off it. I've enjoyed these first couple of matches even without any wins, and a big part of that has been not feeling petrified any time the ball comes near our previously-brittle-and-unpredictable defence.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Having just watched the Stoke game again, two players seem to be getting a ridiculously rough ride on here. Diaby and Jenkinson had good games I thought and yet all I read is negativity surrounding them.

Re: new signings...The new signings have looked reasonable but for two strikers and a CAM to not produce a single goal in two games against Stoke and Sunderland you have to start raising eyebrows sooner or later. Hopefully they all get in on the scoring/assisting act vs. Liverpool.