LC: Arsenal vs Sheffield United | 23/09/08

[stiiphunn]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

They're a joy to watch. They really remind you that football is supposed to be a game. So refreshing to see. People should just watch this and enjoy - you can still worry about the other things later on in the season.

 

[Alfonso]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Im still waiting to see highlights of this game on ITV in about 30 mins, cant wait.

In hindsight I guess paying £20 was worth it! (but got my tickets for Porto as consolation!) Im especially glad Merida played from the start as he has almost been a ghost player these past few years, so it was nice to finally see him having some progression in his Arsenal career. Im really interested to see how he plays as apparently at '16 he was better than Cesc' which some optimistic posters on here once said.

Happy Bendtner has also got some momentum going, he is one of the most underrated players amongst Arsenal fans I know.

Saw the link on RedCafe in the thread labelled 'Arsenal kids' and noticed that we received a bit of stick, with statements such as 'same old story every year, they go on about their kids beating some no-mark team but end up winning **** all. They can go on about their kids doing this and that but we (Man Utd) will be the ones winning the trophies at the end'.

Kinda hurts when you read it like that, and has an element of truth in it, but I dont understand why everything has to be so black and white? Cant we just have good kids. Do they really have to win a domestic cup for us to justify their hype? Why cant they judge in relative terms? Yes, our kids are awesome but doesnt mean they are that good to beat a Man Utd first team in the final, but doesnt make them any less good.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Yeah, I read a bit of the redcafe posts. I think most of the stick was in reaction to Ceks's or whatever his name is provocative nature. To be fair, if some Man U fan came into here boasting about how good Man U were in a 6-0 win against some average Championship side, I doubt half of us would give a toss. Either way, plenty of them gave credit where credit was due, in Vela's goal, Wilshere's potential...and that's about it, but they probably stood out most for the average English fan.

I do feel that this years bunch of kids are different from previous years. We've got quality in quite a few areas, and 2-3 exceptional ones. If Barazite were here as well, it would be a bonus, but dunno where he'd play. Probably replacing Merida on the wing, with Merida moving to the centre in place of Randall, but his tenacity might be missed. I dunno...

 

[Gooner_Stu]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

This year they played more different to previous years, Wengers said that he doesnt plan to use the experienced seniors at all, so its all on them and I really think thats what will make the difference this year. There is no back up. And i think they revel on the pressure, they know that people are interested in watching them and seeing what they can do . They played some football that was cocky and audacious to say the least (highlighted in Vela's 2nd) They KNOW they have the talent to win this. I dont think they fear playing anyone, and I really have confidence in them to pull this off.

 

[kooldawg]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Bring on the Mancs in the carling cup, our lads will probably pull a number on them too

 

[Kenyonhater]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Highlights on ITV1 in the next few minutes.




Well, it was the goals, at least.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

The reason why we don't win anything re our Youth / Reserves, is because the better players in those groups are playing at a higher level.

The cream of our Reserves / Youth are playing C Cup v near strength PL clubs, as opposed to playing v Reserves or Youth. Once they've run their course in those domestic Cups we then loan the better Youth prospects so continue their development & 1st team exposure.

Meanwhile the likes of LFC etc can bleat on all they like about winning the REserve comps / FA Youth Cup etc. AFC treats the Youth / Reserve comps the same way we treat the domestic Cups - as a stepping stone for our next generations. The senior team is primarily for the PL & CL only.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

One thing I'm curious about = what formation did we play???? I suspect it was probably a 442 with Bendtner & Vela up front.

If so then my question is this - if it's good enough for a team with an average age of 19 to play 442 v a Championship team presumably at full strength (or PL teams at near full strength in previous seasons), then why the h*ll can't the senior team play 442 against all but the strongest of our opponents?????

 

[General]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Meatwad,

Similar to Bentley, Walcott was unhappy at his luck of first team action a few months ago. He said this himself and there was definitely some substance in the loan story (coincidentally, it was carried by almost every single football publication in England). The point is, whereas in the past Wenger would’ve entertained the idea of loaning him out, he’s not so receptive to it this time around, hence my assertions “he was guilty of easily allowing young ‘English’ talent through the door”. He, Wenger, is showing more perseverance this time around, taking on board past experiences. So lessons have definitely been learnt.



You also seem to have missed the point I made that when you invest heavily in young (and relatively young) talent like we do, you actually have to show some ruthless streak to the extent of sometimes keeping players against their wishes. Fergie, as much as I detest, continually does this to very good effect. It’s one of the reasons Giggs didn’t end up at Inter Milan and Ronaldo at Madrid. It’s vital we hang on to our talented players by any means necessary. You cannot turn around and allow every disgruntled player through the door else we will continually find ourselves in this cycle of losing key players every summer.

Ade’s assertions during that press conference in Austria clearly contradict Wenger’s comments. The possibility of him leaving over the summer was genuine and Wenger would’ve been the first to acknowledge this. Judging by his comments, Flamini should’ve stayed too. We all know words mean nothing in the current football climate and I’m actually baffled you’re arguing the point.

 

[Zico]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

The bitter RedCafe fans are right. Every season, we create some excitement by beating up on some listless team in the EPL relegation zone or the Championship. Our kids are hailed as world beaters, and then reality strikes: our thin first team becomes banged up and the kids just aren't capable of ready to contribute on the first team on a regular basis. Cesc is the only player under 20 who has been able to offer consistently good performances for the first team in recent years. Bendtner, Walcott, Hoyte and others have taken years and aren't even ready yet to unseat incumbents.

My sense is that we expect too much too soon of these players. As a unit, they do not have the cumulative football experience that comes from playing several games, visiting Bolton on a cold night, playing a man down, overcoming 2 goal deficits. To expect them to step up and provide miracles is folly on our part.

I look forward to the future with these kids, but I also feel that our neglect of the present squad will always have a negative bearing on our ability to build a strong squad in future. Continuity and experience matter, particularly as our opponents continue to get bigger, better squads.

 

[RocktheCasbah]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

My match report, for those of you who haven't seen it already, is here.

Not that it matters now, but the discovery of that Wenger team talk got me thinking- the one thing Wenger is trying to beat into his players is that the team comes first. I wonder if Bentley and Pennant didn't survive here because they didn't buy into that ethos? Walcott is clearly a team player.

Just a thought.

 

[Zico]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

I think the team-talk is probably most closely linked to the chaos that surrounded Gallas' leadership last year. Just as the team is full of inexperienced players, Gallas was very green as a leader and we lacked the cohesion that we have had under captains such as Adams and Vieira.

I just feel that Bentley and Pennant played at the wrong time. If they were Arsenal youth right now, they would be front and center of our development program. Our kids all worry that they won't play - as evidenced most recently by Bendtner and Walcott - but the difference these days is that the gaffer has chosen to play them on a regular basis.

RTC, this section of your article cracked me up: "Kevin Blackwell was rarely in his seat last night, he seemed to spend the whole night gesticulating at his players. I don't know what he was trying to communicate and judging from the result, his players clearly didn't either."

 

[General]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

I don’t think the team talk was anything new to be fair and neither should we read much into it, this early in the season. Wenger’s motivational impact is next to none but application from the players is the main issue. Like last season, the last quarter will reveal how strong a unit we are. We have arguably the toughest run of games the other end of the season so it should set up an interesting finale.

I also agree Pennant and Bentley played at the wrong time. Youth, albeit with an element of experience, is now clearly the mainstay of Wenger’s vision.

 

[RocktheCasbah]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

I wasn't saying the team talk thing was anything new, I was wondering whether Pennant and Bentley were too selfish, as well as being too young at the time, to play in the team.

 

[General]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Oh I’m not suggesting you did Rock. I was simply implying that putting the team first has always been Wenger’s way. As for Bentley, I definitely think he was poorly advised, selfish perhaps in his own little way, similar to Diarra. Pennant in my opinion was too gregarious to make it here. He certainly had the talent. Walcott went through a much tougher scrutiny in his endeavour for first team football. I hazard his parents would’ve been instrumental in keeping his feet on the ground as Wenger can only do so much.

 

[Meatwad]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Meatwad,

Similar to Bentley, Walcott was unhappy at his luck of first team action a few months ago. He said this himself and there was definitely some substance in the loan story (coincidentally, it was carried by almost every single football publication in England). The point is, whereas in the past Wenger would’ve entertained the idea of loaning him out, he’s not so receptive to it this time around, hence my assertions “he was guilty of easily allowing young ‘English’ talent through the door”. He, Wenger, is showing more perseverance this time around, taking on board past experiences. So lessons have definitely been learnt.



You also seem to have missed the point I made that when you invest heavily in young (and relatively young) talent like we do, you actually have to show some ruthless streak to the extent of sometimes keeping players against their wishes. Fergie, as much as I detest, continually does this to very good effect. It’s one of the reasons Giggs didn’t end up at Inter Milan and Ronaldo at Madrid. It’s vital we hang on to our talented players by any means necessary. You cannot turn around and allow every disgruntled player through the door else we will continually find ourselves in this cycle of losing key players every summer.

Ade’s assertions during that press conference in Austria clearly contradict Wenger’s comments. The possibility of him leaving over the summer was genuine and Wenger would’ve been the first to acknowledge this. Judging by his comments, Flamini should’ve stayed too. We all know words mean nothing in the current football climate and I’m actually baffled you’re arguing the point.

I just love how a simple question asking you to back up your claims that Wenger "learnt his lesson" about not allowing young english players to leave easily when they ask (he clearly hasn't, Muamba was sold just last year when he asked to be) morphed into some fictional story about Walcott demanding to be sent out on loan and the undeniable story about Adebayor demanding a pay raise. There isn't any lesson to be learned anyway, he approaches it the right way, none of the departed youth players are missed. And Ade's Austria press conference didn't prove anything other than he wanted more money. Who doesn't know that and if you go to your bosses demanding something you better be willing to show them you mean business if they don't give you a raise. there is a difference between going to your boss and demanding a pay raise and telling him you quit.

Look he hasn't learned any lesson and trying to use first team players as examples when you were clearly talking about the Bentleys and Sidwells of the world is a non-starter. There will be many more just like them because like Carlos Vela said, some of them will make it here but most won't. Will you then wonder why Wenger who had previous "learnt his lesson" regressed to his previous self?

 

[General]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Meatwad,

Ade’s assertions during that press conference in Austria clearly contradict Wenger’s comments. The possibility of him leaving over the summer was genuine and Wenger would’ve been the first to acknowledge this. Judging by his comments, Flamini should’ve stayed too. We all know words mean nothing in the current football climate and I’m actually baffled you’re arguing the point.

I just love how a simple question asking you to back up your claims that Wenger "learnt his lesson" about not allowing young english players to leave easily when they ask (he clearly hasn't, Muamba was sold just last year when he asked to be) morphed into some fictional story about Walcott demanding to be sent out on loan and the undeniable story about Adebayor demanding a pay raise. There isn't any lesson to be learned anyway, he approaches it the right way, none of the departed youth players are missed. And Ade's Austria press conference didn't prove anything other than he wanted more money. Who doesn't know that and if you go to your bosses demanding something you better be willing to show them you mean business if they don't give you a raise. there is a difference between going to your boss and demanding a pay raise and telling him you quit.

Look he hasn't learned any lesson and trying to use first team players as examples when you were clearly talking about the Bentleys and Sidwells of the world is a non-starter. There will be many more just like them because like Carlos Vela said, some of them will make it here but most won't. Will you then wonder why Wenger who had previous "learnt his lesson" regressed to his previous self?

Well, isn’t it ironic the way you dismiss the Walcott loan story as fiction, when it was carried by most reputable prints in the country, without offering any material to disprove it. Your assertions that none of the departed youths are missed borders on delusion. For example - We were playing the last quarter against Wigan last season with Kolo Toure at Right wing FFS! Are you seriously suggesting none of the departed youths could’ve offered more? Your football knowledge is actually starting to annoy me.

Youth actually happen to be the mainstay of Wenger’s vision this time around and I think you’ll find out had Bentley been amongst our current crop, Wenger wouldn’t have been in haste to do a deal with Blackburn. Clearly he (Wenger) could do no wrong in your eyes and I hazard the small hint of criticism was the reason you took me to task.


As for the Ade story - Did Flamini not also indicate to Wenger that he would sign the new contract only to jump ship before the close season? We are talking about one of the most sought after strikers in Europe with Milan openly declaring on their website they were interested. The possibility of Ade leaving was genuine and Wenger would’ve been the first to acknowledge this else he wouldn’t have significantly increased his initial contract offer. Surely you are not that naïve to hang on every single word Wenger spews?

 

[banduan]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

Theo did not demand to go out on loan. He was offered but he did not demand.

 

[Meatwad]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

those two links you posted don't confirm a "walcott wants to go out on loan" angle. in fact they claim it was wenger that wanted to move him. what the hell am i missing here?

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article3244097.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 244097.ece</a>
you do realize that this isn't the credible times reporting this right and only a rumor round up page they have similar to the bbc's. it says the daily mail is reporting that and they are one of the least credible newspapers around.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3074504,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528, ... 04,00.html</a>
that link says "according to reports", they aren't a newspaper they simply reproduced what a dubious source reported. so yes it's very easy for me to dismiss the daily mail's claim that because arsenal got tonked in the carling cup that walcott was now going out on loan at wenger's suggestion.

so you were saying the most credible news outlets in the country were reporting what again?

and because i don't rate someone like david bentley my football knowledge is starting to worry you. tough ****. bentley is a wide player with no pace and only good for crossing and set pieces and those are perfect qualities for a starting arsenal wide player (and don't bring up squad player because bentley never wanted that and made a big fuss about it). and his excellent attitude has already been proven at Sp**s based on how happy he is to perform whatever job the manager requests. bentley found his level.

elite level youth are a part of wenger's vision as it always has been. if they have to go through 12 to find 1 gem they will. bentley was never of wilshere's class therefore wilshere will never have a reason to knock on wenger's door and ask to move elsewhere. and it wasn't wenger who was in haste to get rid of bentley (he had a 5 year contract), it was bentley in haste to leave arsenal. what part of that don't you understand? he had grander visions of his future and it didn't involve sitting on the bench at arsenal at 22 (the arrogant **** that he is). a player like lansbury has more in common with bentley's situation and if he makes a fuss like bentley did you will see the same thing happen to him: sold to some mid-table club with a sell-on clause. wenger will still be the same person, it's whether or not the likes of lansbury and randall will be different from bentley. they will be the ones who have to learn some lesson. wenger doesn't suffer impatient fools.

i asked a simple question that only required a simple answer and you try to distract. you can't make the claim that wenger is somehow different ("learnt his lesson") when there is nothing to prove that he is. walcott never had any similarities with the bentleys and sidwells. their situations were entirely different and they didn't cost arsenal anything (and someone's fee does change the dynamic). they were sold at their request, walcott was never in any danger of being sold or loaned out in january 2008. that's nonsense.

 

[Alfonso]

Re: Arsenal vs Sheff Utd Carling Cup 3rd rd, 23/9/08 19:45

As a unit, they do not have the cumulative football experience that comes from playing several games, visiting Bolton on a cold night, playing a man down, overcoming 2 goal deficits. To expect them to step up and provide miracles is folly on our part.

But they did that last year when we beat Blackburn away in this competition which was one of my favourite Arsenal peformances of last year. Of course we go and sell the Man of the Match of the night Diarra, but thats besides the point.

Ok so what is the relation between beating Blackburn away on a cold Decembers evening and being down to ten men to having a good squad to win the title? It shows we got players that have substance as well as the much praised style. Did we play these youngsters when we were stuggling post Birmingham? Diarra was sold, Denilson was injured, Bendtner saved us against Villa, and Walcott provided the assist of the year. The only youngsters from our highly rated 'kids' team that did not perform well when it counted was Traore, Hoyte and Fabianski (see Sp**s 5-1 and Utd 4-0). But why did we suffer such high defeates? Apart from the fact the manager didnt give a rats ass it was mainly down to the fact that we mixed the two teams up, which has been documented on here before. So, will the young players not play collectively well unless they are all paired together? As Walcott showed towards the tail end of last season they are capable of coming on indepentantly and being an assest instead of a liability for us.