Mesut Özil: 2019/20 Performances

[Notorious Big]

Özil at his best, 2nd best player at Real Madrid while Barcelona had this to say about Cesc leaving:
https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2014/06/13/barcelona-justify-fabregas-sale-in-unusual-statement/

:rofl:

I'm talking about their times at Arsenal.

 

[A_G]

I'm talking about their times at Arsenal.

And I'm comparing them at the big 2 in Spain. People always say Fabregas>Özil based on their time in the PL while ignoring that Cesc flopped at Barca.

 

[Jury]

Gonna just stick this up every time an Özil ultra wakes from an AM slumber and stumbles back into the thread. It's just the bow-legged stragglers left now.

All time stats in an Arsenal shirt:
1. Fabregas: 23936 mins, 57g, 92a, 160.6 mins per goal or assist
2. Özil: 20949 mins, 44g, 77a, 173.1 mins per goals or assist

Cesc cored more, assisted more, and did both at a higher rate considering minutes played.

However, that comparison is actually quite unfair on Cesc given that his first four seasons here were spent developing as a kid whereas Özil joined as a developed superstar. If we were only to compare Fabregas from 07/08 onwards (his breakout season) with Özil then we get the following results:

Stats following Fabregas's breakout season (07/08):
1. Fabregas: 12371 mins, 44g, 74a, 104.8 mins per goal or assist
2. Özil: 20949 mins, 44g, 77a, 173.1 mins per goals or assist

So Cesc not only wins, but wipes the floor with Mesut.

However, once again you could argue that comparison is unfair on Cesc given that he didn't start playing as a "10" until the 2009/2010 season. Before then he had been playing in a deeper midfield role, where you would expect him to be less productive. Özil, in comparison, has always played in an advanced role for us. If we were only to compare Fabregas's stats with Özil when playing the same role then we get the following results:

Stats following Fabregas's move to "10" role:
1. Fabregas: 5612 mins, 28g, 36a, 87.8 mins per goal or assist
2. Özil: 20949 mins, 44g, 77a, 173.1 mins per goals or assist

Özil's atomised body practically needs to be wiped off the floor at this point, with Fabregas proving to have been virtually twice as productive as Mesut while playing in a 10 role.

"bUt CeSc neVer HAd a seAsoN as GoOd as mEsUT iN 15/16"

Yes, he really did.

Spoiler: top 5 seasons from either Cesc / Özil in an Arsenal shirt:

1. Cesc 09/10: 3068 mins, 19g, 20a, 78.7 mins per goal or assist
2. Cesc 10/11: 2544 mins, 9g, 16a, 101.8 mins per goal or assist
3. Cesc 07/08: 3889 mins, 13g, 22, 111.1 mins per goal or assist
4. Özil 15/16: 3940 mins, 8g, 20a, 140.7 mins per goal or assist
5. Özil 16/17: 3746 mins, 12g, 14a, 144.1 mins per goal or assist

And none of that is even taking account Cesc’s much greater involvement in our build up play / defensive involvements. Cesc @ Arsenal was absolute levels above Özil @ Arsenal.

 

[say yes]

Very true.

Özil has actually slighty better numbers if you exclude the time since the biggest disgrace of this club, Bumnai, took over.

Cesc 160 minutes per g/a at Arsenal

Özil 154 minutes per g/a at Arsenal during Wenger's time.

Mate it’s not even close. Only way you can manufacture any kind of slight ‘win’ for Özil is by entirely excluding all his performances (while earning 350k) over the past few years, while including teenage Cesc’s two man CM stats from 2003-2006.

Whatever objective benchmark you choose, whether it’s peak season, best 3 year average, best 5 year average, post-breakout, or overall Arsenal career: Cesc wins (incredibly comfortably).

https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/mesut-Özil-2019-20-performances.33848/page-249#post-5070184

 

[Notorious Big]

And I'm comparing them at the big 2 in Spain. People always say Fabregas>Özil based on their time in the PL while ignoring that Cesc flopped at Barca.

Well,i didn't mention Spain at all.At Arsenal Fabregas was better player.

However,it was tougher for Fabregas to play his best with Xavi and Iniesta in Barcelona's team.They also changed managers since he was there and he didn't fit their system.Özil only played under Mourinho and other midfielders were worse than him.Also,leagues are complete different,so it's hard to judge.

 

[Furious]

Mate it’s not even close. Only way you can manufacture any kind of slight ‘win’ for Özil is by entirely excluding all his performances (while earning 350k) over the past few years, while including teenage Cesc’s two man CM stats from 2003-2006.

Whatever objective benchmark you choose, whether it’s peak season, best 3 year average, best 5 year average, post-breakout, or overall Arsenal career: Cesc wins (incredibly comfortably).

https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/mesut-Özil-2019-20-performances.33848/page-249#post-5070184

Looks exactly like the numbers I posted.

44 to 57 in goals.

77 to 92 in assists.

With around 4000 minutes less. Very similar numbers overall.

 

[Jury]

Özil at his best, 2nd best player at Real Madrid while Barcelona had this to say about Cesc leaving:
https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2014/06/13/barcelona-justify-fabregas-sale-in-unusual-statement/

:rofl:

Deteriorated compared to Messi?

 

[Riou]

Özil at his best, 2nd best player at Real Madrid while Barcelona had this to say about Cesc leaving:
https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2014/06/13/barcelona-justify-fabregas-sale-in-unusual-statement/

:rofl:

Barcelona really are a classless bunch.

Bought a player they didn't need in any way, just cause another team had a shiny toy that they felt was "theirs" ...**** club.

 

[Notorious Big]

Barcelona really are a classless bunch.

Bought a player they didn't need in any way, just cause another team had a shiny toy that they felt was "theirs" ...**** club.

Wankers.

 

[Riou]

Wankers.

Didn't mind them when they signed Thierry from us...but everything with how they acted with buying Cesc, one of my most disliked football clubs now.

 

[say yes]

Looks exactly like the numbers I posted.

44 to 57 in goals.

77 to 92 in assists.

With around 4000 minutes less. Very similar numbers overall.

Similar all time Arsenal careers maybe, but that’s only because Cesc spent so much of his time here here developing as a teenager in a deeper midfield role (and even then he edges it). Cesc is significantly better when you look at the stats post his breakout season in 2007, and monumentally better when you look at his final few seasons when he was moved into a three man midfield.

No contest if you’re comparing their Arsenal careers.

 

[Furious]

Didn't mind them when they signed Thierry from us...but everything with how they acted with buying Cesc, one of my most disliked football clubs now.

He deserved it. The way he left the club, refusing to play in preseason, celebrating in a Barca shirt with Spain, assisting the Iniesta/Messi goal at Camp Nou against us, etc.

The rat got hit by karma, hard.

 

[Notorious Big]

Didn't mind them when they signed Thierry from us...but everything with how they acted with buying Cesc, one of my most disliked football clubs now.

Was never big fan of them to be fair.Since they beat us in CL final,to all that ref helps over this years.Not to mention that players are ****ing diving ****s and fans are arrogant muppets.Unlikeable club overall.

 

[Riou]

Was never big fan of them to be fair.Since they beat us in CL final,to all that ref helps over this years.Not to mention that players are ****ing diving ****s and fans are arrogant muppets.Unlikeable club overall.

I found the shorter their team got, the more I hated them for some reason

Bunch of vanilla midgets, everything I hate in football really.

 

[Notorious Big]

I found the shorter their team got, the more I hated them for some reason

Bunch of vanilla midgets, everything I hate in football really.

Hobbits

Yeah,but i am not fan of Real either and most Spanish club.Was always against them in CL and EL

 

[Riou]

Hobbits

Yeah,but i am not fan of Real either and most Spanish club.Was always against them in CL and EL

Sam was an absolute legend in that film series, literally and figuratively carried Frodo to Mordor!

 

[Notorious Big]

Sam was an absolute legend in that film series, literally and figuratively carried Frodo to Mordor!

Yeah,but Smeagol wanted to **** them up , and Sam saved Frodo's ass at the end.Proper lad.

Watch the other day,at saw that those guys are over 40 now.Ffs,times fly.Pippin is 51

 

[A_G]

Deteriorated compared to Messi?

Think they were talking about his hairline.

 

[Furious]

Similar all time Arsenal careers maybe, but that’s only because Cesc spent so much of his time here here developing as a teenager in a deeper midfield role (and even then he edges it). Cesc is significantly better when you look at the stats post his breakout season in 2007, and monumentally better when you look at his final few seasons when he was moved into a three man midfield.

No contest if you’re comparing their Arsenal careers.

Sure, Cesc was young, but he was still absolutely fantastic, and played with brilliant players, had peak Wenger, Henry, Vieira, etc. winners around him.

And therein lies your over-reliance on stats. The lack of context is staggering.

Imo his best season was 07-08, but if I'm to look at your numbers, they show me he had two seasons better than that. Fair enough, 09-10 he was great, albeit stat-padding, but you could argue, given the numbers, that it's his best season. Still, just ranking them up like that, without the much needed context, isn't a great way of comparing them.

Mesut in that season, where he was about to break the assist record had genuine bums around him, Cazorla injured, Alexis also out for a long time, etc. A disgrace midfield behind him in Coq/Flamini/Ramsey, one of the worst players to ever wear the shirt in Joel Campbell getting loads of minutes, etc.

Not mention only ever having Giroud in front of him during his peak time. While Cesc went from Henry-Adebayor-Rvp.

If you swap them around, I don't think there'd be much of a difference, maybe goals aside, but even then, Cesc scored a couple of pens as well. Özil in his younger days was assisting for fun, if he were to start as a youngster the same way Cesc did for us, with the same players, he would've killed it just as much.

At the end of the day, their stats look similar to me, there's too many variables to take into account to compare them side by side in my opinion, so I don't get this no-contest thing. Özil has done very well for this club, sure the last couple of years haven't been great, he's clearly on a decline and all his numbers have plummeted since Unai took over, that's undeniable, but let's not strip the guy off all good he has done for this club.

 

[GDeep™]

Sure, Cesc was young, but he was still absolutely fantastic, and played with brilliant players, had peak Wenger, Henry, Vieira, etc. winners around him.

And therein lies your over-reliance on stats. The lack of context is staggering.

Imo his best season was 07-08, but if I'm to look at your numbers, they show me he had two seasons better than that. Fair enough, 09-10 he was great, albeit stat-padding, but you could argue, given the numbers, that it's his best season. Still, just ranking them up like that, without the much needed context, isn't a great way of comparing them.

Mesut in that season, where he was about to break the assist record had genuine bums around him, Cazorla injured, Alexis also out for a long time, etc. A disgrace midfield behind him in Coq/Flamini/Ramsey, one of the worst players to ever wear the shirt in Joel Campbell getting loads of minutes, etc.

Not mention only ever having Giroud in front of him during his peak time. While Cesc went from Henry-Adebayor-Rvp.

If you swap them around, I don't think there'd be much of a difference, maybe goals aside, but even then, Cesc scored a couple of pens as well. Özil in his younger days was assisting for fun, if he were to start as a youngster the same way Cesc did for us, with the same players, he would've killed it just as much.

At the end of the day, their stats look similar to me, there's too many variables to take into account to compare them side by side in my opinion, so I don't get this no-contest thing. Özil has done very well for this club, sure the last couple of years haven't been great, he's clearly on a decline and all his numbers have plummeted since Unai took over, that's undeniable, but let's not strip the guy off all good he has done for this club.

Nice to see you back. Probably the most reasonable post on here in the last 150 pages.

Recent highlight of this thread is @say yes massaging stats like a dirty politician and his gang of anti Özil cronies constantly dining off them.