Mesut Özil: Time to Move Ön?

[Rosso]

 

[razörist]

He doesn’t play well —> talks of other big clubs interested is agent bullshit, who would want him?
He plays well —> talks of other clubs interested is agent bullshit to get a better contract

Can’t win ffs.

 

[GeorgiaGunner]

He’d be great at Barca but I’d love to keep him around. Mainly hoping he doesn’t go to United.

 

[celestis]

He’d be great at Barca but I’d love to keep him around. Mainly hoping he doesn’t go to United.

Just keep him i reckon.

 

[truth_hurts]

He'd be great at Barca, would probably add goals to his game as well. I just don't want him At United.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

I'm interested in opinions.....if Özil will definitely sign for £350,000 a week, let's say a likely 2 or 3 year deal, then what represents what is best for the club in terms of on the pitch?

We'd have to sign a replacement of his calibre and then pay wages on top. Why do we (some fans, manager and board) think we have a divine right to have top players whilst not properly competing for the top titles and not pay top wages?

IMO this is a money issue rather than a competing/on field issue but they are interlinked because generally for example when City just got taken over, if you want to get the top players and don't have the draw of regularly winning the league then you need to pay over the odds for wages.

One way or another, Ashley Cole, Thierry Henry, Nasri, Sagna, RVP and now Özil/Alexis all left due to mismanagement by the board and manager either on contracts and paying the going rate or/and failing to strengthen the team adequately so they could compete at the top.

Henry said recently he left because he had a discussion with Wenger about the direction of the club and felt he knew what was going to happen and wanted to win the UCL. RVP practically the same. Now Alexis/Özil. Absolute waste of time building the team and squad to such a level to let it break down time and time again.

 

[Tosker]

I'm interested in opinions.....if Özil will definitely sign for £350,000 a week, let's say a likely 2 or 3 year deal, then what represents what is best for the club in terms of on the pitch?

We'd have to sign a replacement of his calibre and then pay wages on top. Why do we (some fans, manager and board) think we have a divine right to have top players whilst not properly competing for the top titles and not pay top wages?

IMO this is a money issue rather than a competing/on field issue but they are interlinked because generally for example when City just got taken over, if you want to get the top players and don't have the draw of regularly winning the league then you need to pay over the odds for wages.

One way or another, Ashley Cole, Thierry Henry, Nasri, Sagna, RVP and now Özil/Alexis all left due to mismanagement by the board and manager either on contracts and paying the going rate or/and failing to strengthen the team adequately so they could compete at the top.

Henry said recently he left because he had a discussion with Wenger about the direction of the club and felt he knew what was going to happen and wanted to win the UCL. RVP practically the same. Now Alexis/Özil. Absolute waste of time building the team and squad to such a level to let it break down time and time again.

I suspect it would be easier for Özil to decide to stay if we offered enough because he has been part of a WC winning team, and might be again next summer, so perhaps winning CL and PL are of less importance to him than Alexis

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

Messi would score 50 league goals again if Özil goes to Barca. Still can't believe he scored 50 goals in a season, who even does that?

The real KING, Pele. He did it 3 times over the course of his career (51, 55, 54) playing 39, 33 and 37 games (Messi played 37 the year he scored 50). He also scored 66 domestic goals in 1958 the year he dominated the World Cup as 17 year old and won the silver boot and silver ball, but he did play an excessive 46 domestic games that year. This is not inclusive of Copa Libertadores and Club World Cup duties. He was also an incredible assister and has more assists than goals scored over the course of his career. I could go on and on...

But back to Özil. I think like Sanchez he wants to stay but expects to get paid a wage commensurate to his ability and what he is likely to get at any top club. Cant blame him. Would rather see the money go to him and not into Kroenke's pocket.

 

[Zyrth]

The real KING, Pele. He did it 3 times over the course of his career (51, 55, 54) playing 39, 33 and 37 games (Messi played 37 the year he scored 50). He also scored 66 domestic goals in 1958 the year he dominated the World Cup as 17 year old and won the silver boot and silver ball, but he did play an excessive 46 domestic games that year. This is not inclusive of Copa Libertadores and Club World Cup duties. He was also an incredible assister and has more assists than goals scored over the course of his career. I could go on and on...

But back to Özil. I think like Sanchez he wants to stay but expects to get paid a wage commensurate to his ability and what he is likely to get at any top club. Cant blame him. Would rather see the money go to him and not into Kroenke's pocket.

Love your name. Kroenke does suck.
I reckon that besides the money, it must be frustrating to play with this team as a playmaker.

Re: Pele, I do wonder how strong the defenses were back then. They were less physically fit and tactically less drilled without the analysis and all that sorta modern coaching.

 

[Zaza]

I'd be mad if he lives this Jan. We all know he'll be superb for Barca. Will probably break the 20 assists mark.

 

[Zaza]

This makes me think he'll move to man united

 

[KROENKE SUCKS]

Love your name. Kroenke does suck.
I reckon that besides the money, it must be frustrating to play with this team as a playmaker.

Re: Pele, I do wonder how strong the defenses were back then. They were less physically fit and tactically less drilled without the analysis and all that sorta modern coaching.

Hmmm, I think he realises that Wenger is a top manager, and that Arsenal are a great club. He prolly knows that his career is in good hands under Wenger, and that the club is actually pretty close to getting where we want, its just a matter of Gaz and Co getting things done and getting those sponsorship deals.

Re: Pele, its my opinion that it was harder to score back then because of the lack of yellow cards, no last man standing rules etc. Players would just shove Pele down as a last resort, and the worse is a foul. Back then defenders would be a lot more proactive in terms of leaving their position making Messi and Maradona-esque dribbles much more difficult (not for Pele but for most players), meaning football was more team oriented.

Modern football is more structured precisely because defenders are more constrained by the rules of today. Hence the rise of pressing football, etc. I think that structured football makes it harder for teams to score but the reduction in physicality means its easier for individual players. At least this was true for teams up to the 80s since then they've consistently changed the rules to make it more difficult for defences, and now its easier to score both for teams and individuals. Check this video out:


Most of the stuff about physical fitness is nonsense. You could get away with not being fit maybe at best up to the 1960 but once Pele ushered in the modern era in 1958 things changed very quickly. From the footage Ive seen most players Pele played against all looked fit. Sure modern medication , nutrition, exercise techniques and such help but they only make a small difference, maybe 10%. In some cases they are making the minutest of differences, a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of a percentage, etc.

What they don't tell you is that most modern human beings are less athletic than their recent predecessors. Basketball players were tallest in the 70s, and Imo biggest and most athletic (since height isn the only measure of size) in the 60s. The heavyweight division in modern boxing is garbage and modern bigs in basketball are few and far between and the few that exist are crap. In Italy they did a study and found that the average Italian Willie was shrinking since the 70s, their reasoning was pollution/chemicals in the air and water supply, food etc was causing it. Its stands to reason that this isn't just affecting penile size. And all developed/ developing nations are affected by it.

Just read up on some of the 60s basketball legends and the things they could do like Russel, Chamberlain etc. Most of it isn't publicised, because the NBA wanted to sell you Michael and now Lebron. I believe that the greatest athletes lived in the 60s (Ali, Russell, Wilt, Baylor, Pele, etc) and that athletes in the 60s were across the board more athletic. 25 of the 50 greatest NBA players ever as voted for in 1997 all played in the 60s. Half the players all from one decade. If you do research on that era of basketball you will find out about players you've never heard of doing phenomenal things and putting up phenomenal numbers. I honestly believe theres 30 guys in the 60s better than Lebron.

 

[razörist]

Hmmm, I think he realises that Wenger is a top manager, and that Arsenal are a great club. He prolly knows that his career is in good hands under Wenger, and that the club is actually pretty close to getting where we want, its just a matter of Gaz and Co getting things done and getting those sponsorship deals.

Re: Pele, its my opinion that it was harder to score back then because of the lack of yellow cards, no last man standing rules etc. Players would just shove Pele down as a last resort, and the worse is a foul. Back then defenders would be a lot more proactive in terms of leaving their position making Messi and Maradona-esque dribbles much more difficult (not for Pele but for most players), meaning football was more team oriented.

Modern football is more structured precisely because defenders are more constrained by the rules of today. Hence the rise of pressing football, etc. I think that structured football makes it harder for teams to score but the reduction in physicality means its easier for individual players. At least this was true for teams up to the 80s since then they've consistently changed the rules to make it more difficult for defences, and now its easier to score both for teams and individuals. Check this video out:


Most of the stuff about physical fitness is nonsense. You could get away with not being fit maybe at best up to the 1960 but once Pele ushered in the modern era in 1958 things changed very quickly. From the footage Ive seen most players Pele played against all looked fit. Sure modern medication , nutrition, exercise techniques and such help but they only make a small difference, maybe 10%. In some cases they are making the minutest of differences, a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of a percentage, etc.

What they don't tell you is that most modern human beings are less athletic than their recent predecessors. Basketball players were tallest in the 70s, and Imo biggest and most athletic (since height isn the only measure of size) in the 60s. The heavyweight division in modern boxing is garbage and modern bigs in basketball are few and far between and the few that exist are crap. In Italy they did a study and found that the average Italian Willie was shrinking since the 70s, their reasoning was pollution/chemicals in the air and water supply, food etc was causing it. Its stands to reason that this isn't just affecting penile size. And all developed/ developing nations are affected by it.

Just read up on some of the 60s basketball legends and the things they could do like Russel, Chamberlain etc. Most of it isn't publicised, because the NBA wanted to sell you Michael and now Lebron. I believe that the greatest athletes lived in the 60s (Ali, Russell, Wilt, Baylor, Pele, etc) and that athletes in the 60s were across the board more athletic. 25 of the 50 greatest NBA players ever as voted for in 1997 all played in the 60s. Half the players all from one decade. If you do research on that era of basketball you will find out about players you've never heard of doing phenomenal things and putting up phenomenal numbers. I honestly believe theres 30 guys in the 60s better than Lebron.

Awesome insight.

 

[Bergkamp a Dutch Master]

One way or another, Ashley Cole, Thierry Henry, Nasri, Sagna, RVP and now Özil/Alexis all left due to mismanagement by the board and manager either on contracts and paying the going rate or/and failing to strengthen the team adequately so they could compete at the top.

Henry said recently he left because he had a discussion with Wenger about the direction of the club and felt he knew what was going to happen and wanted to win the UCL. RVP practically the same. Now Alexis/Özil. Absolute waste of time building the team and squad to such a level to let it break down time and time again.

Correct - an economist or owner's viewpoint. Just spend enough to keep the turnstiles moving, sponsors spending, and maintain a semblance of trying to win things. Actually going for it takes putting reputation/career on the line, attracting top talent who really believe your intentions (footballers easily conned?), and support all round. It's been a long time since I could even hope I recognised those attributes. Just enough is enough it seems, excuse after excuse.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

Will be hard not to be disappointed if he leaves. He has made noises for a couple of years now about wanting to stay and Wenger of course has very clearly indicated he wants him here as well. So if he goes it really does point to issues at the board level around unwillingness to pay what he wants and/or not being willing to invest in the team enough to convince Özil.

I mean I think all these guys are massively over-payed and the money involved cannot really be justified, but from a purely fan perspective its disappointing.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

Will be hard not to be disappointed if he leaves. He has made noises for a couple of years now about wanting to stay and Wenger of course has very clearly indicated he wants him here as well. So if he goes it really does point to issues at the board level around unwillingness to pay what he wants and/or not being willing to invest in the team enough to convince Özil.

I mean I think all these guys are massively over-payed and the money involved cannot really be justified, but from a purely fan perspective its disappointing.

I agree. I think if we were to to match his demands, he'd stay. Especially a while ago. I think Özil and Alexis would have definitely signed had we put better contracts in front of them much earlier. As usual, I think we played hard ball, didn't come close to their demands early on and as a result they let it run down. The frustrating thing is, had we offered our "final offers" earlier on they may have signed but we probably started the negotiation way too low hence the difficulty.

As mentioned, Alexis might want more in terms of investment in top players but I feel like Özil is an easier one. Just speaking hypothetically and I don't know what other clubs would offer Özil, but even on a lower wage or the same as we are offered, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc are very attractive options so maybe we do need to do that little bit more if we want to keep him away from those clubs. If we were to sell Perez, Campbell, Walcott and a couple of the others, is it really that difficult to meet Özil's demands? It's 2017 now, if the current owner and board can't compete using the current model, it's about time we seek outside investment from richer owners and I'd have been disappointed in the past, and I loved Highbury and that era but soon as though we moved to the Emirates and are now owned by Kroenke all that has gone out the window so if an Arab Sheik or the Prince of "insert rich country here" wanted to take us over and pump ridiculous amounts of money into the club I'd welcome it with open arms.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

Reminds me of when I was 8 and it was the middle of winter and I had to turn up for training in the freezing cold in a muddy wet windy pitch in some crap hole in North London and I really didn't want to.

Özil misses out today due to sickness.

Imagine having to have a real job and wake up at 5am everyday and go and do manual labour in all weather everyday. Mesut's either got the worst immune system in the world or a very low tolerance. Sh*t like this pisses me off. Great performance against Sp**s, everyone talking about how good it was but will we get the same level of commitment against Burnley and he's ill.

Very tough this lad.

 

[DasBootist]

Isn't the same with Iwobi.

 

[A_G]

Why would you even want some who's under the weather to play in a game like this? If it negatively impacts his performance just 5-10%, that can make all the difference in a competitive game like Burnley away.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

Why would you even want some who's under the weather to play in a game like this? If it negatively impacts his performance just 5-10%, that can make all the difference in a competitive game like Burnley away.

He's probably not on his death bed. He might have a small cold or the sniffles. He hardly strikes you as the guy who will do everything to get on the pitch when feeling slightly off. Henry said he never was 100% going onto the pitch, he always had a knock or an ache somewhere.

If he's "under the weather", he could have either started and see how he felt or been on the bench. I'd expect him to be really ill to not even be on the bench. But as a manager you can't really do anything if your player comes to you the night/morning of a game and say he's sick. You ask him if he can play, and he says "I don't think so"...there's not much of an option.

Just think Özil is definitely the sort of character to "not fancy" certain occasions, especially when he's trying to sneak out the back door without anyone noticing. It's hard to measure but you could say having Özil in the team albeit not feeling 100% and a bit of a cold would benefit the team more than not having him in the team at all.

As proven time and time again, Özil isn't one you want when going to war, and it pretty much sums up his career and his personality that he has a great game against Sp**s, trains yesterday (so not ill at that point because he wouldn't have trained with the team) and then calls in sick.