Pre-Season: Legia Warsaw v Arsenal, 07/08/10 16:00 | ATVO

[TheEconomist]

Iv been abroad for the past week or so, are there any highlights for this match somewhere?

 

[AshburtonGhost]

Begs the f*cking question about all this bloody player intelligence malarky don't it? Wonder how soon we'll hear the same old BS about learning lessons from our mistakes etc?

Yeah, it does. Although what I was talking about is more "player competence" than "player intelligence"

Anzac, when / where did you become so certain that Wenger is a fervent disciple of Lobanovski, Sacchi and all that "player intelligence" stuff anyway? You often mention it but the only source I can directly recall was an article on tactics that I think was posted at RAWK?

I shouldn’t answer for Anzac but certain aspects such as player versatility/universality, player intelligence, an emphasis on the collective and attacking football could all loosely be attributed to some sort of appreciation of Sacchi/Lobanovskiy’s model. I personally wouldn’t say Wenger is an outright disciple as he has completely missed the other half of Sacchi/Lobanovskiy’s ideals regarding defending, organisation, etc, areas that the aforementioned two were apparently very stringent about.

 

[outlaw_member]

Begs the f*cking question about all this bloody player intelligence malarky don't it? Wonder how soon we'll hear the same old BS about learning lessons from our mistakes etc?

Yeah, it does. Although what I was talking about is more "player competence" than "player intelligence"

Anzac, when / where did you become so certain that Wenger is a fervent disciple of Lobanovski, Sacchi and all that "player intelligence" stuff anyway? You often mention it but the only source I can directly recall was an article on tactics that I think was posted at RAWK?

There are several segments in his biography written by Xavier Rivoire. He used to travel to Milanello very often and many of his philosophies emanated from Sacchi. Nontheless, like AshburtonGrove said, many of the ideals and strategies he has undertaken were pioneered by the aforementioned managers.

 

[Viper]

Just saw the highlights and I'm amazed how Fabianski is still with us. What a joke of a goalkeeper. Has Almunia left Arsenal or is he st ill here?

 

[Burnwinter]

I don't really doubt that Wenger prefers to give the players their head in many situations, I just don't recall specific reference by authoritative sources to Wenger's adherence to the Sacchi ideas whence Anzac derives the term "player intelligence".

I remember we used to talk about it as a hypothesis, rather than presumed fact.

I sort of think we would benefit from simple defensive instructions.

But I really think our problems in defence stem from a lack of quality and stability in the defensive roles from keeper through to DM. We've been struggling with transition, injury, and poor play in this area for many seasons now.

The best defences involve a great keeper and a great, solid central defence who play together for several seasons.

 

[outlaw_member]

You don't need an authoritative source. You can see it in the football that has been displayed.

 

[Burnwinter]

Might not need an authoritative source, but I'd be fascinated if there was an ITK on Wenger's methodology that had info beyond "we play a lot of five a side matches in training".

 

[outlaw_member]

Lol. Only if that's the sole insight one has on Wenger's tenure and football in general.

The Invincibles executed a high court pressing game of winning the ball as high up the pitch as possible. You don't need someone to tell you that is a philosophy which was adopted from Sacchi, the pioneer. The front four of Henry, Bergkamp, Pires and Ljungberg would switch positions at will, with all four of them appearing in each others area at one point or another. That would be a philosophy adopted from Michels. Another ideal of Wenger's is to allow players to learn and develop through their own intuition and experience. That would be the player intelligence idea which was first developed by Lobanovsky.

Regardless, if you don't believe your eyes, it says just as much in a couple of his biographies. Like I said before, during his Monaco days Wenger would frequently travel to Milanello to integrate what he learned on his visits into his own methodology.

 

[GaelForce22]

6-5?!?!! The ****?

 

[True Gooner]

Never leave the country again.

 

[Captain]

actually, screw this.

 

[GaelForce22]

Never leave the country again.

Watching it now, this is going to be a crazy season.

 

[outlaw_member]

actually, screw this.

?

 

[Anzac]

Lol. Only if that's the sole insight one has on Wenger's tenure and football in general.

The Invincibles executed a high court pressing game of winning the ball as high up the pitch as possible. You don't need someone to tell you that is a philosophy which was adopted from Sacchi, the pioneer. The front four of Henry, Bergkamp, Pires and Ljungberg would switch positions at will, with all four of them appearing in each others area at one point or another. That would be a philosophy adopted from Michels. Another ideal of Wenger's is to allow players to learn and develop through their own intuition and experience. That would be the player intelligence idea which was first developed by Lobanovsky.

Regardless, if you don't believe your eyes, it says just as much in a couple of his biographies. Like I said before, during his Monaco days Wenger would frequently travel to Milanello to integrate what he learned on his visits into his own methodology.

Apologies for going off topic....

Must admit that the original article on RAWK was the catalyst & provided a point of reference to clarify my own observations - I haven't read any bios on anyone as yet, and the only tactical book I've read has been 'Inverting The Pyramid', which talks a little about both Sacchi & Lobanovsky.

The biggest clues have been the words out of AW's own mouth. He constantly talks about 'intelligence' & learning etc, and there have also been plenty of references to statistical data & analysis as well as to player versatility. Intelligence & versatility were key components to Sacchi's version of 'Total Football', and Lobanovsky was very big on statistical analysis re player roles, suitability & performance.

Where AW 'lacks/errs', is in trying to apply these principles with players who are still developing their game & have yet to mature physically & mentally. It worked with the likes of 'The Invincibles' as they had the physical & mental attributes, whereas now AW is trying to foster these in still developing players via game time, because he sees 'real' player intelligence as instinctive rather than being learned by rote/drills (which importantly is also counter productive to providing player versatility required for 'Total Football'). In this regard he is trying to replicate the Ajax model, but the Michels original 'Total Football' model was based as much upon player's athleticism as much as technique, and again we lack this across the squad (although it can be seen in the types of defenders AW likes).

 

[Burnwinter]

Thanks Anzac, that's more or less how I'd read your views in the past as well.

I think there needs to be plenty of qualification when translating events on the pitch to imagined instructions (or liberties) from the manager. Many a slip betwixt cup and lip and all that.

 

[Anzac]

Thanks Anzac, that's more or less how I'd read your views in the past as well.

I think there needs to be plenty of qualification when translating events on the pitch to imagined instructions (or liberties) from the manager. Many a slip betwixt cup and lip and all that.

Whilst I agree with your last point, I still think that if you accept the circumstantial evidence regarding the style of influences (Sacchi, Lobanovsky), combined with his own words, you can extrapolate this into a general understanding of his decision making process.

IMO the key is the need to provide game time to develop the players in a Total Football environment, as we have constantly heard that AW doesn't drill players in position/roles as the primary means of training. Sacchi relied exclusively upon 'player intelligence' to know what to do & when to do it, based within the team style & patterns - the player on the ball at any given time was the playmaker as they determined what happened next.

It should be noted that in both cases Sacchi & Lobanovsky achieved their success with a team very much like The Invincibles, in that they were not looking to develop youngsters into 1st team players at the same time via the 1st team. I also think that while the Ajax team was young, I'd be interested to see what their relative ages when they started in the 1st team, and when they achieved their success.

 

[Timleaf]

edit

 

[Burnwinter]

It should be noted that in both cases Sacchi & Lobanovsky achieved their success with a team very much like The Invincibles, in that they were not looking to develop youngsters into 1st team players at the same time via the 1st team.

(apologies for the loss of context but I only want to address this one point)

I agree that letting players determine positioning and responsibility off the cuff requires a complement of mature players, which Wenger had here in the past, and hasn't really had since the post-Invincibles squad transition. It's a fair point.

But flatly our squad just isn't as talented now, and that explains most of our decline in results. I'm not convinced that the "player intelligence" concepts are a comparable contributing factor.

 

[Timleaf]

I just watched the post match interviews from the game on ATVO, and it's bloomiin brilliant to hear 3 of our players-JET, Wilshere and Lansbury-with London accents. Takes you back to the good old days.