Youth Policy - 'Yes' or 'No'

[ibby]

Given the obscene amounts we pay some of our 'young' players, I call bullshit on that.

Are they not young then? I don't get your use of inverted commas here. :?

I don't classify the likes of Denilson, Diaby and co as young anymore, no, and that was who I was referring to.

 

[Beksl]

IMO the youth policy & academy have yet to beging to payback the investment of time & priority made in them. As for the scouting network I again fail to see the outstanding results other than those from The Highbury Years.

It goes hand with hand with our financial prudency I'm afraid. I bet we identify a lot of potential world class players but nowadays you have to cough up the money for talents like that. Players like Neymar will move for over 20m.

Ryo Miyaichi is one example where money doesn't count but he was first scouted by Ajax if I'm not mistaken and would signed for them if he wouldn't break his leg.

 

[Anonymous]

Balance & the 1st team is NOT a nursery.

Excellently said.
I'll add, if the young players are good enough they will eventually force their way into the reckoning, and be better players and characters for having to do it the difficult/conventional way.

 

[ibby]

I'll repeat and put in bold the parts that are particularly relevant to the above post.

What youth policy? We've began taking the Carling Cup more seriously and our signings last summer were Chamakh, who was twenty-six at the time, Koscielny, twenty-four and Squillaci, thirty. So again, what youth policy?

As far as I see it, there is no youth policy, at least, not one different from most other teams.

Edit - and may I just add that only one teenager has featured regularly in our team this season and he is now donning the Young Player of the Year title.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: scouting network, I also think it's either vastly overrated or as with the good point raised above, hamstrung by its inability/unwilligness to pay for top emerging talent worldwide.

But then you have the Koscienly example where we scouting network came up with a 24 year old (not exactly young young) with no experience, and yet we coughed up a reported 10M for his services, with no-one competiting with us for him. Makes no sense.

I think perhaps we are not as good as spotting unknown, underknown talent as we think we are, and not just nowadays but in all Arsène's days at Arsenal. Anelka, Kolo Toure, and bringing through a young Ashley Cole (and later Fabregas) are the vast exception to the amount of young players who have come and gone and were forgotten easily, or who continue underwhelming year after year. Fact is Wenger's winning sides were heavily skewed towards experience.

I think we vastly overrate our young players too. People regularly say just wait to Frimpong, Bartley, Lansbury whoever comes through, yet before them there was another list of "just wait til x and y come through" and same before that.

Lastly, no matter how great a player looks at 16, 17, 18..it doesn't necessarily correlate to how great he will be as an adult professional, when others catch up and surpass. Wenger's formula about what things he needs to see in a potential good player from ages as young as 8 onwards, places for too much weight and emphasis (and subsequently investment and faith) on how great players look before their balls have even dropped.

 

[Anonymous]

I was trying to find it but, does anyone have some of the comments Wenger has made detailing his phillosphy about player development stages per age group? I've seen quotes and analysis where he states what signs a good player should show like from 8-10, 12, 16 & older etc. I think it would be relevant to this discussion.

 

[Mr. Hotshot]

I pay to watch my team win trophies and beat the giants of football. If I'd want to watch young players grow I'd rather hang out with my local state team scouts during u-15 & u-17 tournaments. I get the idea with the whole youth philosophy thing going on with the club, but you'd have to sit down in a nice cool and relaxing room and really say to yourself what is the purpose you play for Arsenal FC.

 

[amirkat]

I was trying to find it but, does anyone have some of the comments Wenger has made detailing his phillosphy about player development stages per age group? I've seen quotes and analysis where he states what signs a good player should show like from 8-10, 12, 16 & older etc. I think it would be relevant to this discussion.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXhHmU2VHQ&feature=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXhHmU2 ... re=related</a>

Around 2 minutes.

 

[Anonymous]

I was trying to find it but, does anyone have some of the comments Wenger has made detailing his phillosphy about player development stages per age group? I've seen quotes and analysis where he states what signs a good player should show like from 8-10, 12, 16 & older etc. I think it would be relevant to this discussion.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXhHmU2VHQ&feature=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXhHmU2 ... re=related</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Around 2 minutes.

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

From that clip he says:
- between ages 5 and 12 that's where all technical ability is developed
he said if a player doesn't have technical ability at 12 then "he never will..."

- 12 to 18, is where the physical part of the game is developed.

- 18 to 20 is tactical development

- 20 and above is where the mental part of the game kicks in.

He said "technique" the the factor that makes all the difference in a footballer, and football. And 5 to 12 is the key stage for this development.

Honestly I don't know how to interpret this, but I get the idea that Wenger places far too much emphasis on pre-pubescent footballers and thei development, which doesn't necessarily correlate to how they will be as a player and professional.

I also feels he places far to much emphasis on "technique" as the absolute most important ingredient in a footballer's composition, and far too much emphasis on the technical ability of very very very young players.

So basically as our youth production system continues to evolve, it seems that we may close doors to players who are not in our system as early as their single digit years. Thus we'll stick with them no matter what, and continue to stick with them as they become teenagers and early 20s. Basically deciding that what a player shows at 10 or 11, will translate into him being a good player at 22 or 23...philosophy sounds dangerous to me, and places too much valuation and importance on a kid's ability as a kid.

 

[Ding Dong]

What on earth would you base it on then Jani?

 

[justinmitchell]

IMO the youth policy & academy have yet to beging to payback the investment of time & priority made in them. As for the scouting network I again fail to see the outstanding results other than those from The Highbury Years.

That's probably true; most of the youngsters we've brought through the ranks that have been successful and stayed with the club have been purchased internationally with the exceptions of Gibbs, Wilshere and Bendtner to some extent.

Cesc cannot be considered a youth academy player because he was 1st team almost straight away.

 

[Arsenal in Aus]

From that clip he says:
- between ages 5 and 12 that's where all technical ability is developed
he said if a player doesn't have technical ability at 12 then "he never will..."

- 12 to 18, is where the physical part of the game is developed.

- 18 to 20 is tactical development

- 20 and above is where the mental part of the game kicks in.

He said "technique" the the factor that makes all the difference in a footballer, and football. And 5 to 12 is the key stage for this development.

Honestly I don't know how to interpret this, but I get the idea that Wenger places far too much emphasis on pre-pubescent footballers and thei development, which doesn't necessarily correlate to how they will be as a player and professional.

I also feels he places far to much emphasis on "technique" as the absolute most important ingredient in a footballer's composition, and far too much emphasis on the technical ability of very very very young players.

It's not just an opinion from Wenger, it's an explanation of how players basically develop. Technique is learned first - our brains have very limited ability to develop technique after 12. And 12-18 is obviously when we (as human beings) develop physically. After that, as we psychologically mature and gain experience we develop tactical ability.

Wenger isn't saying what a player is at 12 determines what he is at 25, but he is saying if a player doesn't have technique at 12 he won't get it later. A footballer needs to develop in all those stages to reach the top. Technique, then physique, then tactics, plus determination and confidence. It's a natural progression Wenger was explaining, not just his pet theory and personal preference.

 

[Anzac]

IMO those ages are somewhat misleading & may only refer to the optimum time frames. No one is physically mature at 18 & the process can take another 5 years. Similarly tactical awareness & mental development will carry on until the late 20's.

 

[outlaw_member]

In sports, there is still plenty more physical development that is required after the age of 18. It isn't enough for one to solely grow to his peak height, as he also needs to develop power and durability to compete consistently in top level competition. That's something which seems to go amiss when we integrate young players into the first team squad. Very few players have been physically ready at the age of 18.

 

[Anzac]

Despite his figures AW has also said that players aren't physically mature until aged about 23. This is another reason as to why I am so opposed to providing playing opportunities for youngsters to develop in the senior team, in THE most physically demanding domestic league season in the game - moreso when playing at a CL club competing at the highest levels in 4 comps.

 

[outlaw_member]

Absolutely agreed. I'm so worried about how this season will affect Wilshere over the course of his career. We've seen through Fabregas how early exposure may now be catching up to him.

 

[progman07]

Has anyone read Djourou's interview and thought, "what da **** is he talking about"?

<a class="postlink" href="http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/913427/arsenal?cc=5739" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... al?cc=5739</a>

 

[The Cautious Realist]

A great man once said, "you pay for experience with points." Time to end this youth policy once and for all.

Ending the youth policy is complete and utter madness. The transfer market and dependence on it in order to produce a functioning team groomed to play our way is nigh-on impossible in addition to it being an utterly TERRIBLE and unsustainable business model. If you truly want a complete and utter cessation of the youth policy then you are simply not a fan of Arsenal's future success and/or continuation as a force of English football.


Our issues regarding the youth policy were multiple.

1. We brought in a massive number of young players right before dismantling the invincibles. These players, while they may have gotten the chance to interact with and learn from the older players, did not get ENOUGH time to do so or become as hungry for success and/or professional as their counterparts.

2. The belief that if a player is young, they can continue to get better as evidenced by his persistence with Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner etc.

3. Refusing to offload players that have come through our academy or have been at the club for a long time, either in order to meet the homegrown squad quota or due to somewhat personal reasons.

4. The financial constraints that we were under somewhat necessitated buying younger, not so developed players for cheap as opposed to ready-made replacements when they were necessary.



A lot of people are of the opinion that Arsène plays younger players that don't deserve to be in the squad. I disagree!
In the past, such an observation would have been spot on, but the number of reserve and youth players we currently have on loan that are just about good enough to make the squad and do a job (Lansbury, Bartley, JET etc.), Wilshere's loan last season and the fact that we haven't played any particularly young players in the league or otherwise this season indicates to me that Wenger's hand was FORCED in the past.

Wenger's idea is not to sacrifice points for experience but to give precocious and deserving talents the opportunity to play regardless of experience

My two cents

An excellent post.

 

[The Cautious Realist]

Maybe we have different interpretations. From Wenger's action over the years, I've been forced to think the Youth Policy meant that we were going to give youth priority, if all other things remained equal. That meant that if you had skilled, intelligent, older players and skilled, intelligent, younger players, then the younger players would be preferred when push came to shove(e.g during contract negotiations, identifying transfer targets, etc). This is what I believe has to stop. We have to go back to a time when youth wasn't THE determining factor in our decisions. We can consider youth, just the same way Barca, Man U and Bayern consider it, with regard to balancing out.

Wenger's action forced you to think? Really!? Did you think about stadium costs? Do you know how much money was dispensable to Wenger at the time these thoughts entered your head? Are you privy to some information that the rest of us are not, or are these (your forced thoughts) actually conjectures? Do you believe that your thoughts are based upon reason, or is it possible that they are born out of frustration? I'm not trying to belittle you - I apologise if it appears that way. I'm just trying to follow your line of thought, more specifically the italicized section of your post above.