Life after Wenger | Ornstein: Arsenal set to appoint Unai Emery

[Tir Na Nog]

You're arguing a point I never made.

First XI v first XI there's hardly a difference in player quality between us and Chelsea. If we spent 80M in a window on staters (with old starters becoming squad players) we would be able to compete with Chelsea.

Why have you moved the goalposts to saying that 80M is enough to have what Chelsea have? And why are you being so damn patronising? :/

Hazard, Costa, Matic, Kante, Luiz, Azpilleceuta and Courtois all easily walk into our starting eleven. There's a massive difference.

80 million gets you about one and a half starters these days if you want to be a title challenger.

My point is we're miles off Chelsea because they've spent so much money for 15 consecutive years and we've only recently started spending money similar to what they spend. Hence why we're so far behind them. And why it'll take more than spending 80 million in a single transfer window to get close to their level.

I don't get how I'm being patronising, I'm simple just stating a point.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Think we should seriously be considering Tony Pulis. Has WBA on 40 points by February.

 

[Preacher]

What do you expect the club to say, 'We're can afford the 4 th most expensive squad and therefore should come fourth in the league'.

That's what the board know, but they want to portray themselves as a superclub.

Before every battle there's always bluster.

Yeah, maybe they should say that. Even better everything in football should be presented through a prism of money. Before every games: direct opponents squad/players costs comparison, how much one goal or assist are worth and etc. Forget tactics, forget mental issues. Everything would be simplified for the average viewer

I respect your views, but you're too fixated on money and you can't assess other areas, which may affect our results objectively. Nor you, nor I will be able to change each other's points of view, but it's tiring seeing, that every different discussion in this or other Wenger thread ends with same money excuses.

 

[Makingtrax]

Cech v Courtois

Luiz Cahill Azpi Alonso Moses v Bellerin Kos Mustafi Monreal

Cazorla Coq v Kante Matic

Özil Walcott Iwobi Sanchez v Hazard Pedro Costa

Is that really a massive gulf? I know you like to talk about money a lot but let's look at the guys who play the football? Tell me that 80M spent with no outgoings wouldn't make that even closer?

I'm looking at the guys on the pitch, and that's where you'll see their players, week in week out, not in the stands like ours.

Ramsey, Coq, Walcott, Xhaka, Ox, Santi, Welbeck . . . all good at times, but you can't rely on them to be fit and/or play well consistently, they're erratic.

Kante/Matic, always available, always consistent.

Hazard, Costa . . at the moment are playing better than Sanchez, Özil.

Iwobi not a patch on Willian or Pedro.

 

[Makingtrax]

Yeah, maybe they should say that. Even better everything in football should be presented through a prism of money. Before every games: direct opponents squad/players costs comparison, how much one goal or assist are worth and etc. Forget tactics, forget mental issues. Everything would be simplified for the average viewer

I respect your views, but you're too fixated on money and you can't assess other areas, which may affect our results objectively. Nor you, nor I will be able to change each other's points of view, but it's tiring seeing, that every different discussion in this or other Wenger thread end with same money excuses.

I understand that but I'm not fixated, that's how it is. Money isn't an excuse, it's a reality.

In a way it's sad, the post war years where teams could get a good manager who could assemble a squad through cleverness must have been exciting. Now it's all predictable Man U, Man C, Chelsea every year.

Don't see it changing either, Pep and Mourinho with their half £billion squads will get going proper next year. If you can buy the best players, you're bound to win sooner or later. The manager is very much secondary . . . . sadly.

 

[Trilly]

Hazard, Costa, Matic, Kante, Luiz, Azpilleceuta and Courtois all easily walk into our starting eleven. There's a massive difference.

80 million gets you about one and a half starters these days if you want to be a title challenger.

My point is we're miles off Chelsea because they've spent so much money for 15 consecutive years and we've only recently started spending money similar to what they spend. Hence why we're so far behind them. And why it'll take more than spending 80 million in a single transfer window to get close to their level.

I don't get how I'm being patronising, I'm simple just stating a point.

Players like Azpi are brought in as 'good' players, over time they cement a reputation as a good PL performer. You don't field a starting XI full of world class players – 80M used wisely can get you good players who can contribute to a title. Kante for example cost 30M. Chelsea have only have two/three world class players.

Özil and Hazard both proven WC performers. One had a terrible season last year, another one is having a bad season this year. So I don't get why there's question marks over Özil but Hazard walks into our squad.

Luiz and Matic have both been slated on here but now they walk into our squads? At what point are we going to start giving managers credit for doing their job and getting the best out of their players?

If we were to play the same game with Arsenal then Sanchez, Özil, Bellerin, Cazorla and Kos walk into the Chelsea first XI no?

Yes Chelsea have the jump on us in terms of spending but my point is that shows in the squad depth where they have 30M bench players. My point has and still remains that a summer spending 80M is enough to make us competitive.

Other clubs are always being used to defend Wenger, why do we never look at what Wenger does with what he has?!

 

[Penn_]

Even if we filled all the holes in our team, Chelsea would just plow even more money into their's to keep up or overtake us.

Doubtful if it's even possible to win consistently with our setup with the way transfers seem to be heading. Wonder how different life would be under Usmanov.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Players like Azpi are brought in as 'good' players, over time they cement a reputation as a good PL performer. You don't field a starting XI full of world class players – 80M used wisely can get you good players who can contribute to a title. Kante for example cost 30M. Chelsea have only have two/three world class players.

Özil and Hazard both proven WC performers. One had a terrible season last year, another one is having a bad season this year. So I don't get why there's question marks over Özil but Hazard walks into our squad.

Luiz and Matic have both been slated on here but now they walk into our squads? At what point are we going to start giving managers credit for doing their job and getting the best out of their players?

If we were to play the same game with Arsenal then Sanchez, Özil, Bellerin, Cazorla and Kos walk into the Chelsea first XI no?

Yes Chelsea have the jump on us in terms of spending but my point is that shows in the squad depth where they have 30M bench players. My point has and still remains that a summer spending 80M is enough to make us competitive.

Other clubs are always being used to defend Wenger, why do we never look at what Wenger does with what he has?!

Nah that 80 million was nowhere near enough when we're still in a position where we need a keeper, left-back, another top forward, the "perfect partner" for Xhaka and there's still some question marks of Mustafi.

Also this has nothing to do with Wenger, I'm talking about what the next manager will have to deal with. Next manager will be at a disadvantage in terms of what he'll need to improve the squad and what he'll be given in terms of spending to improve the squad (which won't be enough to strengthen all the areas that need strengthening). Hence, why my original point was about how I could only really see Simeone making us serious title challengers given the disadvantage the new manager will be at because I haven't seen much from the likes of Allegri to suggest he'd be capable of getting a group of players playing way above their level (not saying he can't btw, just there's very little evidence). Which for me all comes down to the bigger problem that people continue to ignore, which is why you'll all get a rude awakening sooner or later.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Bringing up Cazorla is interesting because we did look like a team capable of doing something serious when he was fit..... sort of really highlights how lucky we have to be on the injuries front too to really maintain a proper challenge.

 

[Trilly]

Nah that 80 million was nowhere near enough when we're still in a position where we need a keeper, left-back, another top forward, the "perfect partner" for Xhaka and there's still some question marks of Mustafi.

Also this has nothing to do with Wenger, I'm talking about what the next manager will have to deal with. Next manager will be at a disadvantage in terms of what he'll need to improve the squad and what he'll be given in terms of spending to improve the squad (which won't be enough to strengthen all the areas that need strengthening). Hence, why my original point was about how I could only really see Simeone making us serious title challengers given the disadvantage the new manager will be at because I haven't seen much from the likes of Allegri to suggest he'd be capable of getting a group of players playing way above their level (not saying he can't btw, just there's very little evidence). Which for me all comes down to the bigger problem that people continue to ignore, which is why you'll all get a rude awakening sooner or later.

I know we're always going to be at a disadvantage. Personally I think Wenger blew it, the last few PL seasons were the 'easiest' in a while.

The next manager will be at a disadvantage and could easily end up performing worse than Wenger even if he's a better manager. United, City and Chelsea all have quality managers and resources.

There's no rude awakening to be had. We're not Marks and Spencer but we're not Sainsbury's basics either. Our performances when we've come up against any half decent side (bar the game where we kick started Chelsea) have been god awful.

A top manager could have made the difference last season, nobody would be talking about squad cost then.

 

[Trilly]

Nah that 80 million was nowhere near enough when we're still in a position where we need a keeper, left-back, another top forward, the "perfect partner" for Xhaka and there's still some question marks of Mustafi.

Except for the top forward, the rest is highly debatable.

Marcos Alonso is not great, not at all. I agree that we don't have the perfect partner for Xhaka but that's where a manager comes in and earns his money by coming up with a solution...or not buying a player whose flaws you're only going to expose. Had we signed Kante instead of Xhaka we would still be in a mess.

Lastly, if there's question marks about Mustafi then there would be an inquisition about David Luiz and Cahill in our system.

P.s. Giroud was seriously being rated above Costa on here last season, I think you were one of them. Just demonstrates that the difference a manager makes is huge and we spend enough for that difference to mean something.

A top manager at West Brom doesn't win the league but a top manager at Arsenal can at least challenge for the thing.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

I know we're always going to be at a disadvantage. Personally I think Wenger blew it, the last few PL seasons were the 'easiest' in a while.

The next manager will be at a disadvantage and could easily end up performing worse than Wenger even if he's a better manager. United, City and Chelsea all have quality managers and resources.

There's no rude awakening to be had. We're not Marks and Spencer but we're not Sainsbury's basics either. Our performances when we've come up against any half decent side (bar the game where we kick started Chelsea) have been god awful.

A top manager could have made the difference last season, nobody would be talking about squad cost then.

We blew it last season yes, but there won't a season like last season in the near future, so it's completely irrelevant.

The rude awakening is for the guys who talk about all we need a new manager and we'll be winning titles again, maybe that's not you but there's plenty out there.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Except for the top forward, the rest is highly debatable.

Marcos Alonso is not great, not at all. I agree that we don't have the perfect partner for Xhaka but that's where a manager comes in and earns his money by coming up with a solution...or not buying a player whose flaws you're only going to expose. Had we signed Kante instead of Xhaka we would still be in a mess. Lastly, if there's question marks about Mustafi then there would be an inquisition about David Luiz and Cahill in our system.

Oh come off we're not getting close to winning the league with Monreal and Cech for starters, when we lose Cazorla in midfield our midfield is an absolute shambles so we definitely need one more there master tactician who puts Wenger to shame or no master tactician who puts Wenger to shame.

Luiz is a proven player in systems that are quite open, if anything I think he's more suited partner to Koscielny in our system than Mustafi is. Cahill would probably not benefit from being in our system, though Mertesacker was our best CB from 2011-2014 in our system so who knows.

 

[Garrincha]

Im interested to see if a team in Europe can also win the Premier League over the next few years. Leicester & now Chelsea have pulled away remarkably easy from previous seasons top six.

You look at their teams & its the same players week in week out... No red zone in sight. A huge advantage.

Probably need a third season before any trend apparent. Not another league with the financial depth 1-20.

 

[Trilly]

Oh come off we're not getting close to winning the league with Monreal and Cech for starters, when we lose Cazorla in midfield our midfield is an absolute shambles so we definitely need one more there master tactician who puts Wenger to shame or no master tactician who puts Wenger to shame.

Luiz is a proven player in systems that are quite open, if anything I think he's more suited partner to Koscielny in our system than Mustafi is. Cahill would probably not benefit from being in our system, though Mertesacker was our best CB from 2011-2014 in our system so who knows.

What's brilliant is that you're furthering my point here. As a tier 2/3 club we can afford to replace Monreal, Cech and Cazorla.

(We're never going to agree on David Luiz being a success here, lad is a complete clown without the guidance and structure of someone like Conte so how you can say he's a proven player in open systems is beyond me. Luiz also plays in a similar way to Mustafi although comparing a two man to a three man defence is a bit messy.)

Were we have difficulty is in signing world class forwards – we should be definitely looking at the Mbappe and Dembele types there – but goals haven't been the problem this season have they?

 

[Ceballinhos]

Well even Courtois was bang average last year & he's back to his best under Conte.

I wouldn't write off Cech tbf.
We don't have one player in our squad that performs consistently.
And IMO that's down to the manager & the staff.

For GK position we have heard for years that we have terrible gk coaches. they've been there before Arsène. They were average back then & now they're juste completly outdated.
No wonder why Cech is average with us & Chesney is improving a lot in Italy.

Mustafi Koscielny partnership was very solid at the beginning of the season. But now they look like **** too. And that's down to the manager & his team.
If Conte can build a strong defence with Cahill & Luiz (lmao never thought I'd say that one day) then a Simeone can build a very strong partenership with Koscielny & Mustafi.
We absolutely need a decent backup for bellerin, & get rid of Mertesacker & gabriel even if a rate the former. We need to make room for Holding. He looks great he needs to play.
Gabi isn't good enough for our side even as a rotation player.

IMO we're not that far from Chelsea.
We have to build a new midfield that's for sure and get rid of the fraud that is ramsey.
Xhaka was known as one of the very best midfielder in la Bundesliga.
+
our front three is really poor.
I mean we can't realistically compete with the likes of Pedro Costa Hazard with only Sanchez, as good as he is. Same goes for Bayern... You can't compete with Robben Douglas Costa & Lewandowski with fckin Iwobi & Walcott.

Walcott Iwobi Welbeck the Ox are NOWHERE near the level required. Don't get me wrong, I love Iwobi, but he shouldn't be a starter for us. Walcott & the Ox are frauds. Welbeck is a good squad option.

FFS Chelsea has willian on the bench. Now we've moved alexis in a central position we don't have a single winger in the squad that can compete that their winger on the bench.
Alexis is the best striker in the league. He's on par with Aguero IMO in a team that is a fckin mess. I only rate Suarez & Lewandowski above him IMO. Everything needs to be done to keep him, whatever it takes.

Özil meh. I love him. He's one of the most gifted player I've ever seen. But his attitude is just wrong. He's been brillant for 3 months/season. that's just not enough. I don't know if he has what it takes to really be a WC player. He has the abilities for sure. But he's not serious enough, not passionate enough to be one of the greatest.
Loosing him wouldn't be a huge deal IMO.
But who knows maybe a Simeone or Sampaoli could get him back to work & give him some passion...

Attack & midfield are the 2 areas we must improve in order to compete with the biggest clubs IMO.
(sorry for my syntax lol I'm just a french guy trying to share my thoughts in english. not that easy lol)

 

[bingobob]

Keep trying to explain. We're doing now what our rivals done 15 years ago.

Meanwhile United and City spend upwards of 150m. That's more in line with inflation.

In saying that 80m isn't to snuffed at. Its enough for us to go toe to toe for any one player (as long as it isn't a recent previous world record fee). Just requires a bit of will bending on our "wage structure" and willingness to play the game the way other clubs do. That's our biggest handicaps not the transfer budget.

 

[Elmo15]

If the money is our problem then let's get a manager who could play nice football
And not lose with big scores against bigger teams

 

[Makingtrax]

Meanwhile United and City spend upwards of 150m. That's more in line with inflation.

In saying that 80m isn't to snuffed at. Its enough for us to go toe to toe for any one player (as long as it isn't a recent previous world record fee). Just requires a bit of will bending on our "wage structure" and willingness to play the game the way other clubs do. That's our biggest handicaps not the transfer budget.

Realistically, you're not going to save that much on wages if even a new manager comes in a sorts out the problem. Currently we're about £190 m. The big three are spending , MU£232, C£222 and MC £198

Liverpool are £166m so when it's all sorted out, we're not going to save a lot because yes the other clubs pay the the average players less, but they pay the big players more. You might get £20m saving tops.

The real problem is it takes a 3 to 5 years to really build a good squad and over the last few years the big clubs have been spending £100m+ a season on average. Ok, so we spent £85m this year . . . . that's a still not anywhere near enough to compete on a level playing field.

 

[carlito'sway]

Well even Courtois was bang average last year & he's back to his best under Conte.

I wouldn't write off Cech tbf.
We don't have one player in our squad that performs consistently.
And IMO that's down to the manager & the staff.

For GK position we have heard for years that we have terrible gk coaches. they've been there before Arsène. They were average back then & now they're juste completly outdated.
No wonder why Cech is average with us & Chesney is improving a lot in Italy.

Mustafi Koscielny partnership was very solid at the beginning of the season. But now they look like **** too. And that's down to the manager & his team.
If Conte can build a strong defence with Cahill & Luiz (lmao never thought I'd say that one day) then a Simeone can build a very strong partenership with Koscielny & Mustafi.
We absolutely need a decent backup for bellerin, & get rid of Mertesacker & gabriel even if a rate the former. We need to make room for Holding. He looks great he needs to play.
Gabi isn't good enough for our side even as a rotation player.

IMO we're not that far from Chelsea.
We have to build a new midfield that's for sure and get rid of the fraud that is ramsey.
Xhaka was known as one of the very best midfielder in la Bundesliga.
+
our front three is really poor.
I mean we can't realistically compete with the likes of Pedro Costa Hazard with only Sanchez, as good as he is. Same goes for Bayern... You can't compete with Robben Douglas Costa & Lewandowski with fckin Iwobi & Walcott.

Walcott Iwobi Welbeck the Ox are NOWHERE near the level required. Don't get me wrong, I love Iwobi, but he shouldn't be a starter for us. Walcott & the Ox are frauds. Welbeck is a good squad option.

FFS Chelsea has willian on the bench. Now we've moved alexis in a central position we don't have a single winger in the squad that can compete that their winger on the bench.
Alexis is the best striker in the league. He's on par with Aguero IMO in a team that is a fckin mess. I only rate Suarez & Lewandowski above him IMO. Everything needs to be done to keep him, whatever it takes.

Özil meh. I love him. He's one of the most gifted player I've ever seen. But his attitude is just wrong. He's been brillant for 3 months/season. that's just not enough. I don't know if he has what it takes to really be a WC player. He has the abilities for sure. But he's not serious enough, not passionate enough to be one of the greatest.
Loosing him wouldn't be a huge deal IMO.
But who knows maybe a Simeone or Sampaoli could get him back to work & give him some passion...

Attack & midfield are the 2 areas we must improve in order to compete with the biggest clubs IMO.
(sorry for my syntax lol I'm just a french guy trying to share my thoughts in english. not that easy lol)

Good post mate. (good english too...lol).
Totally agree with the comments on our wingers options. Theo and Ox can take a walk as far as I am concerned. I would keep Iwobi and Welbeck as squad options. Alex has room to grow.
In defense, as someone mentioned earlier, I am not convinced by Mustafi but I wonder, like Luiz at CFC, if he would not be a better option in a back 3 set up. He is an open space/ front foot type of defender and does not seem to be comfortable defending on his back foot. Perhaps working with a back 3 would help and also use more effectively his excellent passing range.
That we need talent at the wings positions (a scorer/ playmaker) has been my thoughts since last summer. That is even more urgent now.
In CM, Xhaka is still a starter for me but we need a mobile, intelligent and technical B2B next to him. None of the current options are good enough.