Aaron Ramsey: BianconAaron

[Harz]

An FA Cup win is nice for sure but surely it doesn't make legends? Its importance is eclipsed compared to a league title or an international cup win.

For instance, I'd bet that everyone here would be willing to exchange the three FA Cup wins for a Prem, or a CL, or even an EL title.

 

[Toby]

An FA Cup win is nice for sure but surely it doesn't make legends? Its importance is eclipsed compared to a league title or an international cup win.

For instance, I'd bet that everyone here would be willing to exchange the three FA Cup wins for a Prem, or a CL, or even an EL title.

I kind of agree with your second paragraph, but you can't swap titles and a title is a title.

And regarding your first stuff...I get how you can sort of dimiss the Community Shield, Super Cups and the like...but the serious national Cup in my book is a proper trophy. Winning that thing is a serious achievement, especially if you beat the likes of City and Chelsea on the way.

In Germany, the DFB Cup is a serious trophy and achievement, even if you just get into the final...and if you manage to rip it from Hoeness' Wurstfingers...that's seriously big. Can't seriously understand how some can dimiss a national cup win as meaningless. And of course it can make legends...especially if that Cup is the first trophy after a 9 year drought. Of course that's stuff for legends - Arsenal finally winning a trophy again after years without one.

 

[Harz]

I kind of agree with your second paragraph, but you can't swap titles and a title is a title.

And regarding your first stuff...I get how you can sort of dimiss the Community Shield, Super Cups and the like...but the serious national Cup in my book is a proper trophy. Winning that thing is a serious achievement, especially if you beat the likes of City and Chelsea on the way.

In Germany, the DFB Cup is a serious trophy and achievement, even if you just get into the final...and if you manage to rip it from Hoeness' Wurstfingers...that's seriously big. Can't seriously understand how some can dimiss a national cup win as meaningless. And of course it can make legends...especially if that Cup is the first trophy after a 9 year drought. Of course that's stuff for legends - Arsenal finally winning a trophy again after years without one.

I never said it wasn't important -- it's not like a Community Shield or the Carabao Cup at all. DFB Pokal is also very important, and as you've pointed out, the major domestic cup is always important as those are the oldest trophies in football.

That being said, I think to call a player "a legend" for a domestic cup win is a bit over the top. Also, you make it sound as if Ramsey joined the club after the trophy drought and ensured that we finally win some silverware, but he was part of the team for much of the drought as well. A 9 year trophy drought is not normal for the Arsenal, an FA Cup win every now and then is.

It would be wrong to deem a player a legend for the shortcomings of teams past.

 

[Toby]

A 9 year trophy drought is not normal for the Arsenal

Arsenal - as any club really, no matter how big - had and has title droughts. Arsenal didn't win a title for 18 years after the 1953 league title until the double in 1971. Then it was another 8 years until another FA Cup in '79. Then it was 10 years for the next title, a league in '89. Then came Graham time and the first Wenger decade which were the most successfull since the 30s. What is normal and not normal should be looked at in a fitting time frame. If you just look at the latter half of Graham and the first half of Wenger, you might come to the conclusion a 9 year title drought is not normal for Arsenal, but if you look at its whole history, it very much is.

Also, you make it sound as if Ramsey joined the club after the trophy drought and ensured that we finally win some silverware, but he was part of the team for much of the drought as well.

I never made it sound like Ramsey came and the club suddenly won stuff again. Of course he was here for years when the club won nothing. That's not debatable, but just as that isn't debatable, it's also no contesting that he was at the club for the first major trophy wins after 9 years without one, and that he scored crucial goals to get those trophies.


Ramsey scored two winning goals in two finals.
"Anyone can score goals!"

But they were crucial winning goals.
"Whatever I don't care about winning or equalizing, goal is goal! Anyone can score crucial goals every now and then!"

Let's leave it at that. He still won trophies with Arsenal after the club hadn't won one in 9 years.
"The FA Cup is not a real trophy!"

I do genuinely understand the debate about someone - and Ramsey - being a club legend or not and I get some people's reservations...but the lenght some others go to to discredit him is just baffling.

 

[Harz]

Arsenal - as any club really, no matter how big - had and has title droughts. Arsenal didn't win a title for 18 years after the 1953 league title until the double in 1971. Then it was another 8 years until another FA Cup in '79. Then it was 10 years for the next title, a league in '89. Then came Graham time and the first Wenger decade which were the most successfull since the 30s. What is normal and not normal should be looked at in a fitting time frame. If you just look at the latter half of Graham and the first half of Wenger, you might come to the conclusion a 9 year title drought is not normal for Arsenal, but if you look at its whole history, it very much is.

I never made it sound like Ramsey came and the club suddenly won stuff again. Of course he was here for years when the club won nothing. That's not debatable, but just as that isn't debatable, it's also no contesting that he was at the club for the first major trophy wins after 9 years without one, and that he scored crucial goals to get those trophies.

Ramsey scored two winning goals in two finals.
"Anyone can score goals!"

But they were crucial winning goals.
"Whatever I don't care about winning or equalizing, goal is goal! Anyone can score crucial goals every now and then!"

Let's leave it at that. He still won trophies with Arsenal after the club hadn't won one in 9 years.
"The FA Cup is not a real trophy!"

I do genuinely understand the debate about someone - and Ramsey - being a club legend or not and I get some people's reservations...but the lenght some others go to to discredit him is just baffling.

No need to escalate things so quickly, and no need to put words into my mouth. I never said stuff like "Anyone can score goals!" or "Whatever I don't care about winning or equalizing, goal is goal! Anyone can score crucial goals every now and then!" or "The FA Cup is not a real trophy!"

Clearly you don't understand the debate of whether Ramsey is a club legend, otherwise you wouldn't get so defensive about it. Perhaps you did not quite read everything I've posted about him but I do not wish to discredit his legacy. He is a good player. He is an icon, a cup hero.

I believe I've clearly stated what it takes for me to call someone a club legend, and gave two very good examples: Patrick Vieira and Ray Parlour. I find it very harmful to give out the title of "club legend" so easily, mostly because it trivializes the legacies of true legends.

Also, on your point about trophy droughts: in this era of football we have a group of big clubs with clear financial advantages over the rest of the league -- namely the top 6 -- and Arsenal has been in this top group for decades now. So it is a little anachronistic to compare the nine year drought of modern era industrial football to the droughts of pre 1990s football, which we can call semi-pro compared to today's standards.

 

[Fallout]

Soo...scoring two winning goals in two finals of a cup isn't a key contribution to winning the trophies?

I said important trophies. FA Cups are nice but they have had zero impact on our status in the domestic football landscape, let alone world football. Lets be honest about that. We won 3 FA Cups and became worse relative to our competitors. You cant become a legend by winning a few of these trophies.

 

[Mark Tobias]

I said important trophies. FA Cups are nice but they have had zero impact on our status in the domestic football landscape, let alone world football. Lets be honest about that. We won 3 FA Cups and became worse relative to our competitors. You cant become a legend by winning a few of these trophies.

It is hardly Ramsey's fault that the club didn't use the trophies to press on to greater heights. Whole lot more going on in the background doing that. You might not value the FA cup but I actually do. It is a special tournament and we see exciting things happen in it every season.
Not to mention the fact that if Sp**s won 3 FA cups they'd be hailed as the next great thing. Media agenda and all that jazz.

 

[ThlRama]

Someone like Per Mertesacker or Rosicky is more of an Arsenal legend than Ramsey for me, that is for sure.

 

[Toby]

No need to escalate things so quickly, and no need to put words into my mouth. I never said stuff like "Anyone can score goals!" or "Whatever I don't care about winning or equalizing, goal is goal! Anyone can score crucial goals every now and then!" or "The FA Cup is not a real trophy!"

That wasn't pointed at you specifically but rather a common behaviour in here.

Clearly you don't understand the debate of whether Ramsey is a club legend

I do understand, but some other people seemingly don't understand football.

 

[Toby]

I said important trophies. FA Cups are nice but they have had zero impact on our status in the domestic football landscape, let alone world football. Lets be honest about that. We won 3 FA Cups and became worse relative to our competitors. You cant become a legend by winning a few of these trophies.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Someone like Per Mertesacker or Rosicky is more of an Arsenal legend than Ramsey for me, that is for sure.

Is there reasoning for this? Sincere question. Just curious.

 

[WilshereGone]

Someone like Per Mertesacker or Rosicky is more of an Arsenal legend than Ramsey for me, that is for sure.

Rosicky's more of a cult hero for me. Amazing to watch but spent too much time injured to be a legend. Don't see what makes Per more of a legend than Ramsey really. Think they both won the same trophies, but Aaron was here longer and scored two cup winning goals. Per was a monster in finals though.

 

[Harz]

That wasn't pointed at you specifically but rather a common behaviour in here.

I do understand, but some other people seemingly don't understand football.

That is a rather audacious statement. I did go back and read for a couple of pages and didn't see anyone calling Ramsey a bad footballer, or even an average player.

It's clear why someone wouldn't consider him a legend, just as it's clear why someone wouldn't care about the FA Cup trophy enough to call him a legend.

Perhaps if he kept up the form of the early 2013/14 season, he would've attained legendary status.

 

[Mitch]

Someone like Per Mertesacker or Rosicky is more of an Arsenal legend than Ramsey for me, that is for sure.

Not even close. Ramsey's not even fit to clean Rosickys boots.

 

[krackpot]

He knows how much it means

 

[Aevi]

Legend.

 

[A_G]

If he plays a role in helping the team win the EL, it'll definitely add to his claim of legendary status

 

[Yousif Arsenal]

The goal was class but I feel his overall game was average many poor passes.

 

[Manberg]

In hindsight, he should've stayed on.

 

[dka1]

The goal was class but I feel his overall game was average many poor passes.

Yeah I tend to lean this way, I think his goal was vital, but overall he was just decent/good rather than amazing.