Arsenal v Blackburn Match Ratings

[Klaus Daimler]

VanPersie got something like 20/15 last season in a team roundly criticised for lacking offensive bite, he will certainly do better this season.

A lot of those were penalties and FA cup goals. Not that they don't count, of course, but they're not great indicators. They're the kind of stats someone who's sceptic towards stats in football would use as an example to illustrate his point. He scored four league goals post january, I think, and generally did a hack job as our main striker when we really needed him. Which, again, wasn't just his fault but I felt he was the weakest of our three main strikers in respect to useful contribution. I don't think there's much underrating going on. It's rather the opposite: van Persie gets a different treatment than others in his position, for obvious reasons. He's not a cnut for example, he's well-spoken, and he loves the club. All great aspects of a man. A world class player he isn't yet, though, and I don't think it's helpful to start talking like he's shortlisted for the Ballon d'Or when he's just managed to score in three consecutive games for the first time since, what, 2006?

 

[banduan]

RVP does not need to be good enough to be the world's best player.

He just needs to be good enough to win us the league.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Oh, I agree. But he wasn't good enough for that either last season. I've already said that I'm impressed by how he's looked for the last month though. If he can keep this form up a bit he's definitely good enough.

 

[Captain]

VanPersie got something like 20/15 last season in a team roundly criticised for lacking offensive bite, he will certainly do better this season.

A lot of those were penalties and FA cup goals. Not that they don't count, of course, but they're not great indicators. They're the kind of stats someone who's sceptic towards stats in football would use as an example to illustrate his point. He scored four league goals post january, I think, and generally did a hack job as our main striker when we really needed him. Which, again, wasn't just his fault but I felt he was the weakest of our three main strikers in respect to useful contribution. I don't think there's much underrating going on. It's rather the opposite: van Persie gets a different treatment than others in his position, for obvious reasons. He's not a cnut for example, he's well-spoken, and he loves the club. All great aspects of a man. A world class player he isn't yet, though, and I don't think it's helpful to start talking like he's shortlisted for the Ballon d'Or when he's just managed to score in three consecutive games for the first time since, what, 2006?

Nope, they are the stats that back up my initial prediction of:

Premiership, he should be looking for 20+ goals. I'm not a fan of assists but in tandem with the goal return and the fact that he takes corners, he should be aiming for 15+ although around the 11-12 mark would seem more realistic.

All competitions, I think it is fair to ask for 20/20 depending how much action he sees in the domestic cups.

He scored four in the FA cup and Five in europe. In 44 appearances he managed to directly contribute to 35 goals in a struggling team; that's not to be looked down on.

My other contribution was that he is a better player than Torres. If that, in your eyes, constitutes "talking like he's shortlisted for the Ballon d'Or" then fair play, I'll leave you to it.

 

[ricky1985]

It's actually quite amazing how quickly he has adapted and got his head around playing such a different (and challenging) role.

Thing is he's not playing as a number 9. This team has no number 9s. Wenger is flexible enough to do that.

Now compare with Rooney, a number 10 having to play as a number 9 and, it seems, struggling to adapt.

No, not in the traditional sense, but he is still leading the line, has moved 20 yards further up the pitch and is now the focal point of all the creativity, instead of just another cog within it. He's showing more strings to his bow with every game he plays. His movmeent, for example, on Sunday was top class - that's something he has always had, but it hasn't really ben a factor of his game in the last 3 seasons, because he's played from such a deep position.

 

[ricky1985]

Oh, I agree. But he wasn't good enough for that either last season. I've already said that I'm impressed by how he's looked for the last month though. If he can keep this form up a bit he's definitely good enough.

Come on, mate. Lionel Messi couldn't have won us the League last season. The team had far too many shortcomings. To score/create 35 goals in a team that was as dysunctional as ours was last season is an impressive achievment (that means, on average, he either scored or assisted in virtually every game he played in).

With Cesc, Rosicky, Arshavin, Walcott etc. all playing regularly alongside him, and coupled with his change of role within the team - you'd be a downright pessimist (any I know you most certainly are not) not to expect closer to a marked improvement on last seasons' figures. And if he improves on numbers like that, surely we would be talking about one of the best footballers in Europe?

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Oh, I agree. But he wasn't good enough for that either last season. I've already said that I'm impressed by how he's looked for the last month though. If he can keep this form up a bit he's definitely good enough.

Come on, mate. Lionel Messi couldn't have won us the League last season. The team had far too many shortcomings. To score/create 35 goals in a team that was as dysunctional as ours was last season is an impressive achievment (that means, on average, he either scored or assisted in virtually every game he played in).

Yeah, and it would have been impressive if he really did just that. But he didn't. Above all the distribution of those goals and assists was what bugged me. He had a great month in january but went about for long periods without doing much. There were a lot of penalties included in the goal numbers too, not least in Europe. Robin scored 9 league goals throughout the season up until the last, pointless game against Stoke where he bagged a brace. As our main striker it's just not good enough. It's a symptom of a dysfunctional team, sure, but a dysfunctional team is also a symptom of dysfunctional players.

Similar, he scored 2 goals during open play in the Champions League. The other three were a penalty against Roma (which he won himself), a penalty against Villarreal when we were already 3-1 up on aggregate and a pointless penalty against United in the second leg of the semi final. Apart from the Roma game and the one against Everton in the league which ended as a draw I can't remember that many games that he won us despite racking up those stats. I remember a lot of moments where we couldn't even buy a goal though. I think your memory is perhaps a bit clouded by his recent performances because I seem to recall that you too were critical of his overall game last season.

With Cesc, Rosicky, Arshavin, Walcott etc. all playing regularly alongside him, and coupled with his change of role within the team - you'd be a downright pessimist (any I know you most certainly are not) not to expect closer to a marked improvement on last seasons' figures.

[/quote][/quote]
Sure. I always hope for our players to do their best, and I've already said that I'm happy with how Robin has been playing for the last month. But an improvement of his overall performance last season isn't all that hard. It's what I'd expect of someone who commands a starting spot at Arsenal. I'm just glad that he's starting to remind me of the van Persie of old times.

 

[Timleaf]

Torres has scored more premier league goals in 2 seasons and 8 games than Van Persie has in 5 and 7 games. As much as I rate Van Persie and think, in the right system, he could be exceptional for us, Torres is the better player right now. Not least because he's actually proved he can provide world class end product over a full season, something that Van Persie is yet to do.

 

[ricky1985]

@ Klaus.

I was critical of him, and I really didn't like him in the role he was in last season - off Adebayor for the majority of the season, and that's where he's played for virtually his whole Arsenal career. So Ade was the main 'srtiker' and Robin was his supporting act.

I was also skeptical over the summer about whether he had the physical abilities, and goal scoring ability to play as our focal point up front. From what I saw in pre-season I quickly came to the conclusion that he could, and I've been beating that drum, in the face of fierce opposition, ever since - and I think every game he's showing more and more. He has almost the perfect skillset for the role he is now playing in our team (maybe a little more pace wouldn't go amiss, but slow he aint!).

I think he'll start scoring goals, and lots of them, and when he does that, combined with his other abilities, he will be one of the most coveted forwards in the game.

 

[patrick42uk]

I dont believe his role now is that different from playing as a second striker. Although, saying that, he was never convincing as the latter.

 

[raphael_as]

Torres has scored more premier league goals in 2 seasons and 8 games than Van Persie has in 5 and 7 games

While that is true (Torres has 46 (8, 14, 24) EPL goals whilst RvP has 42 (3, 11, 7, 11, 5, 5)) it's actually pretty damn close considering RvP was not playing in the same role as Torres (as evidenced by their EPL assist numbers in the time Torres has been in the EPL - 17 for RvP, 3 for Torres) and also the number of injury disruptions RvP has had - he's only started 87 EPL games in those 5+ years vs. 57 for Torres in 2+.

In fact Torres has actually started more EPL games (57 vs 44) and games in general (79 vs 63) in the last 2+ years then RvP. Here I agree with you Torres has to be considered better just because he's managed to more-or-less stay injury free for 2+ seasons, something RvP has never managed.

As a player though, I'm just not comfortable saying either is really better than the other, both have their strengths and indeed weaknesses so I think it's a little simplistic to do that. If you play a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 system where a 'fox in the box' benefits, I'd go with Torres every day of the week. You play our current system, I've got to say I'd prefer RvP.

There were a lot of penalties included in the goal numbers too, not least in Europe. Robin scored 9 league goals throughout the season up until the last, pointless game against Stoke where he bagged a brace. As our main striker it's just not good enough. It's a symptom of a dysfunctional team, sure, but a dysfunctional team is also a symptom of dysfunctional players.

[Bolding mine] Agreed. So it's a good thing he wasn't our main striker isn't it. Seriously, I can understand you having concerns about him as a main striker (I have them too), but don't judge him in his role in our current system (which is not really that of a main striker) based on his performance in a completely different one.

I'm also not a huge fan of the penalties don't count school of thought, it's a different skill then using your foot, head or indeed arse to get the ball in the back of the net, but it's no less a goal because of it. Ditto for goals in 'meaningless' games - you still have to score them. Couple that with the fact that RvP had some absolutely critical goals last season and I just don't think you can mark him down on the 'quality' of his goals.

So last season RvP scored 20 goals in 36 starts in all competitions. Torres scored 22 in 30 starts. I think that is pretty good for someone who wasn't the main striker for a large part of the season.

 

[True Gooner]

I dont believe his role now is that different from playing as a second striker. Although, saying that, he was never convincing as the latter.

It's not. The difference is that his link up between midfield and attack is far superior than what we've expected over the past three years and he's got the positional discipline to stay onside and not drift like he did last season or the way Adebayor constantly drifted to the left. Plus he's not forced to drop deep looking for the ball because we've got players who can supply him with the right pass and as a result he's not dropping on top of Fabregas. If anything it allows Fabregas to get forward like he did on Saturday and against Everton.

On a one off fantasy team I'd take Torres over van Persie every day of the week but given the role that he's been asked to play I think van Persie's strengths in this area are superior to Torres.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

There were a lot of penalties included in the goal numbers too, not least in Europe. Robin scored 9 league goals throughout the season up until the last, pointless game against Stoke where he bagged a brace. As our main striker it's just not good enough. It's a symptom of a dysfunctional team, sure, but a dysfunctional team is also a symptom of dysfunctional players.

[Bolding mine] Agreed. So it's a good thing he wasn't our main striker isn't it. Seriously, I can understand you having concerns about him as a main striker (I have them too), but don't judge him in his role in our current system (which is not really that of a main striker) based on his performance in a completely different one.

For all intents and purposes, van Persie was our main striker. Maybe you misunderstood but my criticism was solely aimed towards last season. I've said it twice, but I might as well repeat it: when Robin is playing like he's done for the last month or so I've got absolutely no problem with it. He's been more than good enough lately and I'm happy for it.

I'm also not a huge fan of the penalties don't count school of thought, it's a different skill then using your foot, head or indeed arse to get the ball in the back of the net, but it's no less a goal because of it.

No, and that's not the point either. The point is that, while it's worth as much as any goal on the scoresheet, most players can take a penalty. You don't need to be a striker to do that. To be a striker you should have the particular quality to get into position and convert chances we're creating from open play though, and that's something that Robin lacked last season. At least the goalscoring part. He constantly dropped too deep, which only worked reasonably well when Adebayor was on the field at the same time. It made us much less dangerous since we could rarely count on Robin to turn up with a goal when we really needed it.

I agree in general with your opinion that a goal is a goal and many goals equals a good return, but it didn't correspond well to long goalless spells last season.

 

[otfgoon]

Robins form dipped last season as soon as Arshavin arrived and he had to play in a different way in a different formation. Not really all that shocking. Even then we always looked a much better, fluid side with him in the team.

All people remember is him not winning us the FA Cup from the left wing or not winning us the CL dispite hardly seeing the ball.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

I don't think that's fair, otfgoon. He had a pretty dry spell before january too.

Anyway, I shall not pursue this. I'm actually a big fan of Robin but I realise that I don't come across as it in this thread. Better to just leave it at that then. The important thing is that both him and the team are doing well right now.

 

[ricky1985]

Great post, Raphael. Some interesting and enlightening stats there.

 

[celestis]

Am just rapt he has scored in three consecutive games . Think he thrives on this system where the onus is not on him to score all the time.

 

[raphael_as]

For all intents and purposes, van Persie was our main striker

But I don't understand how you can say that - 14 of the 24 games RvP started last season Adebayor also started: I can't see how you could consider him the main striker in any of those games. A number of the others he started with Bendtner, where again I would venture that he couldn't really be considered the main striker.

In fact the only games I would consider him to have been the main striker are those towards the end of the season when we were playing a 4-5-1, and there I completely agree he wasn't suited to that role.

It made us much less dangerous since we could rarely count on Robin to turn up with a goal when we really needed it.

I agree. He has not consistently shown the ability to create a goal out of nothing. He does it in flashes, but then again I think there are very few players in the world who can really claim that ability on a consistent basis (although there are definately players who do it more consistently then RvP).

I would just add that last season there is no getting away from the fact that we weren't really creating chances for anyone though - no matter who started up front, teams were able to play us to a standstill (and when we did go on a goal scoring tear, we'd completely lose concentration at the back (Tottenham/Liverpool)).

The important thing is that both him and the team are doing well right now.

Absolutely - I will say one thing: Just watching the matches off Arsenal.com, the difference in the atmosphere of the last couple of games is just night and day: Even at the beginning of the season there were large parts of the game where the ground was more or less silent. Contrast this to Tuesday and Sunday when the singing was more or less non-stop. I really hope the fans continue this because it makes a hell of a lot of difference to the experience of the game, and I can only imagine to the players too.

 

[outlaw_member]

Your first point is a really interesting one mate. We don't seem to be struggling with the 'parked buses' anymore - ironically our 'Plan B' for those situations was supposed to be Adebayor, but we didn't have the right players to make that way work. Surely it's no coincidence that now we suddenly have a striker up front who has both world class technique and extremely clever movement, that we're finding space in the final third much, much easier to come by?

It's no coincidence at all. Adebayor was the biggest hindrance to the total football we were attempting to execute, and he was also an obstacle to our counter-attacking capabilities. Now that we no longer have a ball hogger who wants to emulate Henry, we are capable of transitioning the ball much quicker in the final 3rd.

No, not in the traditional sense, but he is still leading the line, has moved 20 yards further up the pitch and is now the focal point of all the creativity, instead of just another cog within it.

I made this observation in the past. When he was attributed with the deeper role, he was constantly in a situation with time on the ball and passing options ahead of him. Seeing that he just never possessed the passing intelligence required in the position, it was clear that he was struggling as a consequence. Now that he is further up the pitch, he isn't in the aforementioned scenario as often, and the lack of time on the ball means that he has to play more instinctively. Which has resulted in him making quicker and shorter passes with sharper movement, which he is more than capable of doing.

 

[ricky1985]

There is a marked difference in the atmosphere, it was really good to be there for the two games this week, to see the place really start to feel like home. I think the fans are starting to believe in this team again and that makes all the difference.