Arsenal v Liverpool - Wednesday April 2, 7.45pm CL

[Macho]

I don't think we played that well to be honest. As Hiddink correctly pointed out, we were far too narrow. There was a lot of space to be exploited down the flanks but Eboue and Hleb came inside constantly. All our play went down the middle, which is the story of our season really. How hard is it to just stand on the line when a central midfielder has the ball?

I agree with you, although I don't think it is as bad as last season. Especially early in the season- when Rosicky was fit. Our wing play greatly improved. Its all gone to pots now though.
We wasn't that great but still- how we didn't win was quite baffling.

 

[sabret00the]

I don't think we played that well to be honest. As Hiddink correctly pointed out, we were far too narrow. There was a lot of space to be exploited down the flanks but Eboue and Hleb came inside constantly. All our play went down the middle, which is the story of our season really. How hard is it to just stand on the line when a central midfielder has the ball?

It's been a problem for a number of seasons. i remember how often we'd be shut out of games back when we had pires and ljungberg here because they came inside too much and teams just sat in front of goal. the problem is a tactical one, where by Wenger wants to rely on the full backs for width instead of relying on them to link up play. just that little change in philosophy would see the wingers stay outside more and use the full backs to facilitate the runs inside when feasible.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

I don't think we played that well to be honest. As Hiddink correctly pointed out, we were far too narrow. There was a lot of space to be exploited down the flanks but Eboue and Hleb came inside constantly. All our play went down the middle, which is the story of our season really. How hard is it to just stand on the line when a central midfielder has the ball?

It's been a problem for a number of seasons. i remember how often we'd be shut out of games back when we had pires and ljungberg here because they came inside too much and teams just sat in front of goal. the problem is a tactical one, where by Wenger wants to rely on the full backs for width instead of relying on them to link up play. just that little change in philosophy would see the wingers stay outside more and use the full backs to facilitate the runs inside when feasible.

It goes a little bit beyond tactical. It goes with the personnel of the team. To change our tactics we would be required to change the type of "wingers" we look for. We really havent had orthodox wingers for a loong time and its not our style and it has worked well. Say what you say but against a 10 men defense the width would not have given us a sure win. We caused enough trouble at their back and the few chances we created were sufficient for a game of this profile. Our FBs do provide width and that works well in most cases and gives our wingers.options to usually cut inside or make inside runs(lngber/pires). The only challenge is our current "wingers" have limited potential. Eboue does offer a threat cutting inside..but what he does at end is useless in a lot of cases but he still does offer that threat thus allowing sagna to make the run. Rosciky is whom we miss the most cos not only does he cut inside..but he also makes those very intelligent runs from outside to inside. So tactically i think how we play goes very well with the team we have. I actually think Walcot should stay more on the left wing cos he is forced to get inside..

 

[Gurgen]

It goes a little bit beyond tactical. It goes with the personnel of the team. To change our tactics we would be required to change the type of "wingers" we look for.

No, that is nonsense.

You just have to stand on the line and keep the playing field wide, very simple. You and I can do it. Look at the Austria-Holland match. Seedorf came on and kept the pitch wide very well on the left, and he is a central midfielder. Of course, it does help if you can exploit the space on the outside yourself, something that Seedorf couldn't do because he doesn't have a left foot. But the very least you can do is keep the width so space opens up in the centre. This is an extremely simple task most people can do at 11 years of age, but Hleb and Eboue somehow managed to fk up.

You are talking about what wingers do on the ball, I'm talking about what they should be doing off the ball.

This is exactly what tactics is about. We've had this problem for so long now and it's the reason Cruijff et al have called us tactically weak.

 

[Captain]

Off the ball, Hleb almost always stands wide (and so does Rosicky); you can't see it on the telly.

 

[Illusion]

Say what you say but against a 10 men defense the width would not have given us a sure win. We caused enough trouble at their back and the few chances we created were sufficient for a game of this profile.

It's not just a Winger problem that is true, but width is part of the failing of our team and has been for quite a while.

Only one of our strikers is capable of staying up front all game, beating the offside trap and nicking goals in an around the box, this would be Eduardo of course. He is now injured for a year, but when he was playing he spent half his time stuck out on the left in a 4-5-1 where he wasn't comfortable or able to contribute much.

The rest of our strikers all like to drop deep, play one twos and set something up. None of them stay as far forward as they can and they rarely have the instinct to sprint into the box to get on the end of something.

Most of our team avoids running into the box so a conventional Winger wont be as helpful as they could be unless that mentality is adjusted too.

We've all seen it countless times this season, ball wide but no one in the box to cross to since it's typically one of our strikers with possession out wide and the rest of the players are sitting outside the box challenging for nothing.

Look at Ronaldo's goal against Roma, he sprinted a good 30 yards to get into a good position for that goal. It took the Roma defence off guard and they got a goal from effectively nothing. In addition to Ronaldo there were two people in the box I believe as well as Evra and Brown on either side of the box providing width. How many times have we been in a similar situation with no one in the box, no one out wide and the cross just drifts harmlessly over the box and out for a throw in on the other side?

Our strikers are supposed to stay forward to score goals, that's their job and that's what we need them to do. What is the use of Adebayor dropping deep and creating space with some wonderful skill if he's got no one to pass to ahead of him?

We need wide players no matter what happens to our tactics and that means at least one purchase regardless of squad fitness levels or who is going to start. I just hope that if that wide player comes we adjust slightly and make sure we maintain a threat in the box.

 

[sabret00the]

I don't think we played that well to be honest. As Hiddink correctly pointed out, we were far too narrow. There was a lot of space to be exploited down the flanks but Eboue and Hleb came inside constantly. All our play went down the middle, which is the story of our season really. How hard is it to just stand on the line when a central midfielder has the ball?

It's been a problem for a number of seasons. i remember how often we'd be shut out of games back when we had pires and ljungberg here because they came inside too much and teams just sat in front of goal. the problem is a tactical one, where by Wenger wants to rely on the full backs for width instead of relying on them to link up play. just that little change in philosophy would see the wingers stay outside more and use the full backs to facilitate the runs inside when feasible.

It goes a little bit beyond tactical. It goes with the personnel of the team. To change our tactics we would be required to change the type of "wingers" we look for. We really havent had orthodox wingers for a loong time and its not our style and it has worked well. Say what you say but against a 10 men defense the width would not have given us a sure win. We caused enough trouble at their back and the few chances we created were sufficient for a game of this profile. Our FBs do provide width and that works well in most cases and gives our wingers.options to usually cut inside or make inside runs(lngber/pires). The only challenge is our current "wingers" have limited potential. Eboue does offer a threat cutting inside..but what he does at end is useless in a lot of cases but he still does offer that threat thus allowing sagna to make the run. Rosciky is whom we miss the most cause not only does he cut inside..but he also makes those very intelligent runs from outside to inside. So tactically i think how we play goes very well with the team we have. I actually think Walcot should stay more on the left wing cause he is forced to get inside..

i don't think i could disagree with your post more. the epitome of the modern day winger is a player who can play through the centre and utilise the space outside. our full backs tend to just run up the pitch and cross the ball hoping for the best. that is exactly the type of football that is a problem for us. if you have a winger who can go outside and then from there either cut-in, cross the ball or play it short to the full back we're a better team. the closest we have to that is hleb. rosicky, eboue, walcott and diaby all always try and play through the centre and it's predictable which means it's a hindrance.

 

[sabret00the]

Off the ball, Hleb almost always stands wide (and so does Rosicky); you can't see it on the telly.

Rosicky stand so wide, he's not even in the starting line-up. joke.

I never saw this post before i made mine but i agree in regards to hleb. in regards to rosicky. when he's not involved in play he stands wide but the second he gets a whiff of the ball, he's wherever the ball is. rosicky would be a 50% better player if on occasion he would play the one and run wide instead of always looking to re-receive the ball with his short passes. my greatest criticism of him is his selfishness.

 

[sabret00the]

Say what you say but against a 10 men defense the width would not have given us a sure win. We caused enough trouble at their back and the few chances we created were sufficient for a game of this profile.

It's not just a Winger problem that is true, but width is part of the failing of our team and has been for quite a while.

Only one of our strikers is capable of staying up front all game, beating the offside trap and nicking goals in an around the box, this would be Eduardo of course. He is now injured for a year, but when he was playing he spent half his time stuck out on the left in a 4-5-1 where he wasn't comfortable or able to contribute much.

The rest of our strikers all like to drop deep, play one twos and set something up. None of them stay as far forward as they can and they rarely have the instinct to sprint into the box to get on the end of something.

Most of our team avoids running into the box so a conventional Winger wont be as helpful as they could be unless that mentality is adjusted too.

We've all seen it countless times this season, ball wide but no one in the box to cross to since it's typically one of our strikers with possession out wide and the rest of the players are sitting outside the box challenging for nothing.

Look at Ronaldo's goal against Roma, he sprinted a good 30 yards to get into a good position for that goal. It took the Roma defence off guard and they got a goal from effectively nothing. In addition to Ronaldo there were two people in the box I believe as well as Evra and Brown on either side of the box providing width. How many times have we been in a similar situation with no one in the box, no one out wide and the cross just drifts harmlessly over the box and out for a throw in on the other side?

Our strikers are supposed to stay forward to score goals, that's their job and that's what we need them to do. What is the use of Adebayor dropping deep and creating space with some wonderful skill if he's got no one to pass to ahead of him?

We need wide players no matter what happens to our tactics and that means at least one purchase regardless of squad fitness levels or who is going to start. I just hope that if that wide player comes we adjust slightly and make sure we maintain a threat in the box.

@ citing Ronaldo's roma goal as an example of anything. it was a one-off.

in regards to Dudu, you have to realise that while his team play was often ignored, he did drop deep and was involved in our build up play. The reason our strikers drop deep is because we play a passing game and as such in order to facilitate the movement of the opposition defenders out of position, you have to move to create space and seem a threat by being in possession while others open themselves up for the shot or another pass. the success is in the unpredictability. as such, Dudu's goals were always the result of us playing more direct than normally. which is great, which is what i prefer, but it was an on-the-fly change in tactic made by the players as opposed to an instruction by Wenger. If we played a more direct game, i'm sure that we'd be bagging 80 goals between three strikers without problem.

 

[Illusion]

If we played a more direct game, i'm sure that we'd be bagging 80 goals between three strikers without problem.

I'm sure we would too, but we aren't going to have those three available for most of next season.

 

[sabret00the]

I'm not sure about all that. If you get van Persie fit again and keep him playing, he'll stay fit. Adebayor has good genes and Dudu doesn't plan to have his leg broken again.

Problem is, we don't play a direct game. the onus of our team is no longer on scoring it's now on possession.

Funnily enough, it made me want to make a thread where by people would list what out and out flair players Wenger has signed over the years and i came up with three at any level. We may not be the one-nil to the arsenal type of team but we're becoming a new breed of boring-boring arsenal.

 

[Illusion]

I'm not sure about all that. If you get van Persie fit again and keep him playing, he'll stay fit. Adebayor has good genes and Dudu doesn't plan to have his leg broken again.

Problem is, we don't play a direct game. the onus of our team is no longer on scoring it's now on possession.

Funnily enough, it made me want to make a thread where by people would list what out and out flair players Wenger has signed over the years and i came up with three at any level. We may not be the one-nil to the arsenal type of team but we're becoming a new breed of boring-boring arsenal.

If you get van Persie fit again and keep him playing he will more likely end up injured than stay miraculously fit judging by past experience. He was fit and playing fine for the last two seasons was he not? What happened then?

Even if RvP is fit all season, in addition to Adebayor that gives us two key front men for four competitions. That means no rest for them except the Carling Cup and by this time next season they will both be knackered.

Eduardo shouldn't be considered a factor at all next season. At best he will recover by Christmas and start to play again, but these will be short stints and ideally not 2-0 down to Bolton in the first half crazy games where he has to bust a gut to save us. He needs to come back slowly and nurtured back to full fitness and strength. He needs that bone to heal perfectly or he will not be the same player again. We simply can't afford to rush him back because it could finish his career.

Even in the ideal situation of Eduardo recovering fully for Christmas and RvP/Adebayors full availability it's still nowhere near enough to win the league.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

. I just hope that if that wide player comes we adjust slightly and make sure we maintain a threat in the box.

And that is where the challenge is. We all assume making that wing play effective can be done while maintaining our threat in the box or penetration in the middle which is probably as effective as any team you can think of. When i say penetration in the middle am not refering to individual brilliance but team work penetration.

You salivate on Hleb's amazing dribble in the middle and forget that skill that allows him to thread and swerve, limits him in staying outside and you cant have it both.

Its very simple to suggest we need width and our change is only tactical t be effective as a team with but that is not that easy. The most danger moments from Ade this Wed..was when he did the Henry and was out there running inside...and getting involved. Of course there was no on to receive the ball. When he stays put in the middle then he has to wait for those damn crosses..which in some games never come.

I know one thing for sure is it is much easier to shut down a team that relies heavily on wing play then one that relies heavily on attack from the middle.

With our team as is, if i was to choose which should be our strength, it would be the attack through center. But of course i would rather have both but reality is that doesnt happen much.

 

[Illusion]

. I just hope that if that wide player comes we adjust slightly and make sure we maintain a threat in the box.

And that is where the challenge is. We all assume making that wing play effective can be done while maintaining our threat in the box or penetration in the middle which is probably as effective as any team you can think of. When i say penetration in the middle am not refering to individual brilliance but team work penetration.

You salivate on Hleb's amazing dribble in the middle and forget that skill that allows him to thread and swerve, limits him in staying outside and you cant have it both.

Its very simple to suggest we need width and our change is only tactical t be effective as a team with but that is not that easy. The most danger moments from Ade this Wed..was when he did the Henry and was out there running inside...and getting involved. Of course there was no on to receive the ball. When he stays put in the middle then he has to wait for those damn crosses..which in some games never come.

I know one thing for sure is it is much easier to shut down a team that relies heavily on wing play then one that relies heavily on attack from the middle.

With our team as is, if i was to choose which should be our strength, it would be the attack through center. But of course i would rather have both but reality is that doesnt happen much.

The theory with the Adebayor thing you mentioned is that a true wide player would be doing the job of delivering crosses to Adebayor as he waits in the middle. Right now if he goes in the middle the crosses don't come unless Sagna or Clichy are making runs. This makes Adebayor even more likely to come deep and wide in order to get the ball and create something, the problem is he is the guy that needs to be on the end of these creations.

I'm perfectly fine with Hleb doing stuff all around the pitch, he is so talented he can do what he wants offensively as far as I'm concerned. He would benefit from the addition of a Winger and overall strong depth in the midfield/attacking areas. It would ideally mean we can switch players from side to side or at lest have a very dynamic midfield with quality players capable of filling in anywhere midfield and onwards. This kind of thing would benefit the oft wandering Hleb tremendously.

 

[asajoseph]

The hardest sort of team to defend against is one that can attack you from any angle.

It's very straightforward to defend against a team that has nothing in the middle, but equally straightforward to stop a team that cannot play out wide.

If your 'wide' midfielders cut into the middle, they begin to occupy space that your 'central' midfielders are trying to play in, the whole thing becomes congested and falls apart. It's not that an system that has no width can never work - just that you have to play ****ing well to get anywhere with it.

 

[James]

I think bendtner saved the linesmen from looking like a total clueless f****g idiot that he is, when he cleared that cesc ball of the line, because whe he was called offside, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE TWO f****g DEFENDERS STANDING ON THE LINE BEHIND HIM KEEPING THE WHOLE f****g STADIAM ONSIDE!!!!!!

had that gone in, and the flag went up, this forum would have gone into slit wrist adn throat mode.

You clearly don't understand the offside rule mate.

 

[Biggus]

The hardest sort of team to defend against is one that can attack you from any angle.

Indeed, and from any area of the pitch from any player and with any style of play. Earlier in the season we mixed it up more, but recently we've slipped back into the boring predictable pass pass pass lose the ball. This has proved a failure against PL sides as the tempo is too slow. It also has failed to produce any goals pretty or other wise. All our goals recently have come from set pieces.

 

[the dawn raids]

predictibality has become our calling card. us taking a lead and struggling to keep that momentum after the goal, us dominating without any result involved, van Persie hurt AGAIN. this game was a perfect example of arsenal the last month/season/year and a half. quite frustrating really.

 

[_scorpion_]

That bit in bold had nothing to do with Maturity; Flamini messed up one tackle and that was it.

Everyone knows we will score at Anfield, even Liverpool supporters and as soon as we do the advantage swings massively back to us based upon what Liverpool have produced both times that we have played them this season.

Toure messed up by getting square with Gerrard.

Flamini did what Flamini does - which is the same thing he has been doing all season - attack the ball and go in for the tackle. Yes he missed this time, but Toure was in a bad body position to deal with Gerrard.

I hope your right about us scoring at Anfeild. To be honest, I don't think we have many goals left in us this year. Not with the current squad and injuries we are carrying. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[_scorpion_]

You all raise great points about our width and players standing wide.

There is some truth about natural wingers doing what comes naturally ....attacking down the line. As opposed to the attacking mid who enjoys cutting inside even though his starting position is often the wing.

Hleb is everywhere at the moment - starts wide, drifts in , plays second striker etc.

The point that Pro-Winger camp make is that they want to see the wide line being attacked. I.e. We attack the flamk first and utilise the space, rather than cutting in all the time and relying on our fullbacks to bomb up and down.

There needs to be a variation. After a while, the opposition defence can work out whether there is real intent in our attack out wide or whether the play will go inside again. We don't have the element of surprise anymore.

When Wallcott does play - you can see that he puts doubt in the mind of the defence because he DOES attack wide rather than drift in and wait for the fullback. However, Wallcott lacks experience and you can see that from his decision making at times.

A proper winger will create that doubt.

Arsène should go against the grain for a change and adapt a real winger into a player that can cut inside at times and use the fullback. RATHER than buying a centeral attacker that starts out wide - but drifts to the middle all the time and relys on a fullback for width.