Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

[CurryFlavoured]

If you want change Ancelotti is the last guy you should want....... like Wenger he's a lax disciplinarian and will not be the guy who can whip our team into shape. Bayern players had to organise their own training sessions because they felt Ancelotti wasn't giving them enough training. Ancelotti just benefitted from always joining the best teams of the league, if Wenger managed Chelsea/PSG/Madrid/Bayern he'll probably have as much if not more successes than Ancelotti.

I disagree, I definitely don't think that Wenger could've won the CL or a double with Chelsea in recent seasons.

 

[Makingtrax]

Would like to think this club would find another Wenger. A long term manager with educated ideas that can represent the business with dignity and class. And someone that can overperform with the limited cashflow that Kroenke provides, compared to the oil clubs.

It's a very tall order and they'll have to take a gamble again. Personally, I'd rather take a gamble on an Arteta type than a short term old guy like LVG, that United took a punt on, or Ancelotti. Better to keep Wenger he hammered LVG on a lot less spend.

 

[Makingtrax]

Liverpool are outspending us again. According to the BBC here's their 20 years of spending £1.o2bn, whilst Arsenal's is £687m.

After seeing a post by @Mark Tobias in another thread, thought I'd look at their finishing positions against Wenger during the oligarch era.

07/08 L4 . .A3
08/09 L2 . .A3
09/10 L7 . .A3
10/11. L6 . .A4
11/12. L8 . .A3
12/13 L7 . .A4
13/14 L2 . .A4
14/15 L6 . .A3
15/16 L8 . .A2
16/17 L4 . .A5

Their averaging finishing position in the last 10 years was 5.4 with all their different managers. Wenger's averaged 2.78 over a whole 20 year period. Which is remarkable.

As soon as you put money into the context, Wenger has over performed by some margin. The campaign to tarnish his achievements for Arsenal in recent years is full of holes. All this bottling and capitulation rubbish is a figment of people's imaginations and over expectations. Wenger has undoubtedly been a victim of his own success by any sane measure.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Liverpool are outspending us again. According to the BBC here's their 20 years of spending £1.o2bn, whilst Arsenal's is £687m.

After seeing a post by @Mark Tobias in another thread, thought I'd look at their finishing positions against Wenger during the oligarch era.

07/08 L4 . .A3
08/09 L2 . .A3
09/10 L7 . .A3
10/11. L6 . .A4
11/12. L8 . .A3
12/13 L7 . .A4
13/14 L2 . .A4
14/15 L6 . .A3
15/16 L8 . .A2
16/17 L4 . .A5

Their averaging finishing position in the last 10 years was 5.4 with all their different managers. Wenger's averaged 2.78 over a whole 20 year period. Which is remarkable.

As soon as you put money into the context, Wenger has over performed by some margin. The campaign to tarnish his achievements for Arsenal in recent years is full of holes. All this bottling and capitulation rubbish is a figment of people's imaginations and over expectations. Wenger has undoubtedly been a victim of his own success by any sane measure.

Thanks Trax. Was curious to look at this too.

 

[krakenzero]

Liverpool are outspending us again. According to the BBC here's their 20 years of spending £1.o2bn, whilst Arsenal's is £687m.

After seeing a post by @Mark Tobias in another thread, thought I'd look at their finishing positions against Wenger during the oligarch era.

07/08 L4 . .A3
08/09 L2 . .A3
09/10 L7 . .A3
10/11. L6 . .A4
11/12. L8 . .A3
12/13 L7 . .A4
13/14 L2 . .A4
14/15 L6 . .A3
15/16 L8 . .A2
16/17 L4 . .A5

Their averaging finishing position in the last 10 years was 5.4 with all their different managers. Wenger's averaged 2.78 over a whole 20 year period. Which is remarkable.

As soon as you put money into the context, Wenger has over performed by some margin. The campaign to tarnish his achievements for Arsenal in recent years is full of holes. All this bottling and capitulation rubbish is a figment of people's imaginations and over expectations. Wenger has undoubtedly been a victim of his own success by any sane measure.

I didn't remember that Liverpool was actually closer to win the PL twice in the last 10 years.

 

[Mark Tobias]

I didn't remember that Liverpool was actually closer to win the PL twice in the last 10 years.

Reverse that now. In 7 of those ten years we have been better placed and closer to the title....

 

[Makingtrax]

I didn't remember that Liverpool was actually closer to win the PL twice in the last 10 years.

Yes, and they beat us twice in the previous 10 years. So, spending a 75% more than Arsenal, we beat them 15 seasons out of 20. And they had seven different managers against Wenger.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Yes, and they beat us twice in the previous 10 years. So, spending a 75% more than Arsenal, we beat them 15 seasons out of 20. And they had seven different managers against Wenger.

Copy pasted to an email to my little brtoher, the little scouser ****

 

[Makingtrax]

Copy pasted to an email to my little brtoher, the little scouser ****

No doubt he'll say you lost your final of the CL and we won ours. But you can say, 'We'll match our 3EPL titles against your none and 7 FACups against your 2'.

 

[krakenzero]

Reverse that now. In 7 of those ten years we have been better placed and closer to the title....

I wasn't complaining about it, I just didn't remember.

Define "closer to the title". Than Liverpool? Close at all? How much is close? Less than 10 points away? Because that has happened once since 2008.

 

[Mark Tobias]

No doubt he'll say you lost your final of the CL and we won ours. But you can say, 'We'll match our 3EPL titles against your none and 7 FACups against your 2'.

No, on the contrary. My bro is quite level headed (for a Pool fan). He has maintained up until last season that we have it good with Wenger. Often used to tell me "I'd rather have consistent champions league football than be all over the place like we are"

But yes, he does throw that UCL trophy in my face at times and we very seldom watch an Arsenal - Liverpool game together.

 

[Mark Tobias]

I wasn't complaining about it, I just didn't remember.

Define "closer to the title". Than Liverpool? Close at all? How much is close? Less than 10 points away? Because that has happened once since 2008.

Sorry man, I misunderstood.

I see your point and I say it is a good one.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

Would like to think this club would find another Wenger. A long term manager with educated ideas that can represent the business with dignity and class. And someone that can overperform with the limited cashflow that Kroenke provides, compared to the oil clubs.

It's a very tall order and they'll have to take a gamble again. Personally, I'd rather take a gamble on an Arteta type than a short term old guy like LVG, that United took a punt on, or Ancelotti. Better to keep Wenger he hammered LVG on a lot less spend.

I think the days of ultra long term managers are gone, too much pressure and demand. So unless we were to find a 1/10000 manager, I don't think that will happen.

If we're talking about everything else you mention - educated ideas, dignity and class. Add in that he would surely command big respect from the players - Ancelotti ticks a lot of boxes.

Not to be a **** either, but I really don't understand how any sane person could want Arteta (or similar) to take over Arsenal as his first managerial job. He's only been coaching for 18 months, this club is in a position where we don't have to search for a diamond in the rough. We can offer the new manager a big salary, money to work with in the transfer market, and a club with fantastic pedigree. That alone gives us a vast amount of options.

 

[Makingtrax]

I wasn't complaining about it, I just didn't remember.

Define "closer to the title". Than Liverpool? Close at all? How much is close? Less than 10 points away? Because that has happened once since 2008.

You're making the classic mistake of judging Wenger against oil money. This post was judging Arsenal against a club that's spent 75% more, not double. Just saying.

And don't mention the word Leicester, because 1 in 140 year flukes don't count in this discussion.

 

[krakenzero]

On topic, I think that in order to get love from the fans, you need either success (according to a subjective definition of it) or at least the sensation of progress towards success. To most fans both seem gone by now.

The thing with "consistently good" is, it isn't sexy. It doesn't make panties fall. It usually gets you raises, but no promotions. And at the exact moment that it's become clear that this is as good as it gets, well, the spell is broken.

 

[Makingtrax]

I think the days of ultra long term managers are gone, too much pressure and demand. So unless we were to find a 1/10000 manager, I don't think that will happen.

If we're talking about everything else you mention - educated ideas, dignity and class. Add in that he would surely command big respect from the players - Ancelotti ticks a lot of boxes.

Not to be a **** either, but I really don't understand how any sane person could want Arteta (or similar) to take over Arsenal as his first managerial job. He's only been coaching for 18 months, this club is in a position where we don't have to search for a diamond in the rough. We can offer the new manager a big salary, money to work with in the transfer market, and a club with fantastic pedigree. That alone gives us a vast amount of options.

Sadly, maybe they have gone. But the Liverpool chart above shows how well a talented single long term manager can perform against changelings spending a lot more.

And give a talented long term manager a lot more money and you have Alex Ferguson.

 

[karl]

I wouldn't start measuring ourselves against Liverpool. They are still living in the eighties and have never won the EPL. It is just time for a change and to thank Arsène very much.

 

[Makingtrax]

On topic, I think that in order to get love from the fans, you need either success (according to a subjective definition of it) or at least the sensation of progress towards success. To most fans both seem gone by now.

The thing with "consistently good" is, it isn't sexy. It doesn't make panties fall. It usually gets you raises, but no promotions. And at the exact moment that it's become clear that this is as good as it gets, well, the spell is broken.

Absolutely. We now live in a world where very good doesn't cut the mustard amongst fans. It's death or glory. I see that.

And there's nothing wrong with saying Wenger's been good, time for a change . . that's how I feel.

But this media campaign to make him look a useless fool that our fans have fallen for hook line and sinker is a miscarriage of justice

 

[krakenzero]

You're making the classic mistake of judging Wenger against oil money. This post was judging Arsenal against a club that's spent 75% more, not double. Just saying.

And don't mention the word Leicester, because 1 in 140 year flukes don't count in this discussion.

So we are analyzing and considering everything stat, league table, clean sheet, goal received, average position in the last 20 years, except for the 20% of oil teams in the league and for the flukes? That's good to know. It brings me memories of my thesis.

 

[CurryFlavoured]

Sadly, maybe they have gone. But the Liverpool chart above shows how well a talented single long term manager can perform against changelings spending a lot more.

And give a talented long term manager a lot more money and you have Alex Ferguson.

Hmm, you've taken a long span with the 20 year statistics. The disappointment for Arsenal fans is that we've allowed Liverpool to leapfrog us recently after years of being much better than them - we've stayed static while they've clearly improved and now look consistent under Klopp (top 4 and possibly a good run in Europe).

And we've been spending more than them - net spend last 5 years we've spent 250m they've spent 175m. So we've been in a better market position but have done relatively worse.