Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

[AmberHawk]

I think Wenger himself dont belive in himself anymore.
The last few seasons he always talked about leaving on a high, leaving the club in the best state its ever been to whoever comes after him.

This year he says none of this. With all the contracts running out, players wanting to leave. Basicly not having one great signing sense Alexis.

The results on the pitch going from bad to worse. At the very least having the referees turn on him.

I think its clear to himself to that he no longer has what it takes to compete in modern fotball.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Do you think Liverpool lost the title under Rodgers due to lack of money. Do you think we blew our 4 separate title chances due to lack of money. It can be done but you have to be a very, very good manager to get your team over the line through a mixture of good recruitment and good tactics.

Very few clubs in world football have the developed infrastructure that Arsenal FC have, very few super clubs have the developed infrastructure that Arsenal Fc have. I will never doubt that more money will give you a better fighting chance but football history is littered with examples of teams winning titles simply because their management and footballing tactics were better than their competitors despite have less money to spend.

Its the regularity of it that is in question isn't it though supposedly because all countries in the world fit into a nice tidy box of how it runs statistically in sport..... Its like trying to hold on to a slippery eel this debate, because literally you could argue anything with statistics that it hasn't happened consistently and this and that, "so therefore Im right because statistics (may) say so".
Exactly as you say history is littered with teams winning titles out of the blue. Anyone remember Blackburn? even Nottingham Forest (yes it is they), Leeds? The list goes on and throws the majority of statistical nonsense out the window. Er Leicester (shouldn't have said that)

 

[shootxhakashoot]

I think Wenger himself dont belive in himself anymore.
The last few seasons he always talked about leaving on a high, leaving the club in the best state its ever been to whoever comes after him.

This year he says none of this. With all the contracts running out, players wanting to leave. Basicly not having one great signing sense Alexis.

The results on the pitch going from bad to worse. At the very least having the referees turn on him.

I think its clear to himself to that he no longer has what it takes to compete in modern fotball.

Age catches up with us all. Im losing my Cruyff turns year on year and flexibility IS an issue nowadays. Its the acknowledging of and changing/adapting thats the problem for some people. Its sad but I think he needs it literally spelt out in big letters, almost like a plane flying over the ground on matchday or getting tonked by Forest.....
Some peoples stubbornness knows no bounds but theres no fool like an old fool.

 

[Makingtrax]

I will never doubt that more money will give you a better fighting chance but football history is littered with examples of teams winning titles simply because their management and footballing tactics were better than their competitors despite have less money to spend.

Littered with examples?

In the EPL . . . Leicester is the only example of a team to beat the oil clubs in 13 years and the manager was sacked the following season and they returned to relegation fodder. So that's not an example of a well managed club.

La Liga . . . Atletico is the only team to break that cycle of Barca/Real in the last 13 years. Now that is a very well managed club. But they've still only done it once.

La Ligue . . PSG, taken over by a country ffs in 2011. In the five years since then one team has broken their run, Monaco. Like City they've spent a fortune to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Bundesliga don't have an oligarch team but the richest team has won it 9 times since 2004 and the second richest twice, only Wolfsburg and Stuttgart have broken them up.

Serie A inter and Juventus have won 12 of the last 13 years. Go back to the 80s and nineties and loads of different teams won.

So even though there are 100 teams in these leagues many of whom have superb managers, less than half a dozen have broken the dominance of the major teams through either luck or good management. Recent history is not littered with examples, it's almost impossible to beat the money to a title, whoever's in charge.

 

[redanddread]

Littered with examples?

In the EPL . . . Leicester is the only example of a team to beat the oil clubs in 13 years and the manager was sacked the following season and they returned to relegation fodder. So that's not an example of a well managed club.

La Liga . . . Atletico is the only team to break that cycle of Barca/Real in the last 13 years. Now that is a very well managed club. But they've still only done it once.

La Ligue . . PSG, taken over by a country ffs in 2011. In the five years since then one team has broken their run, Monaco. Like City they've spent a fortune to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Bundesliga don't have an oligarch team but the richest team has won it 9 times since 2004 and the second richest twice, only Wolfsburg and Stuttgart have broken them up.

Serie A inter and Juventus have won 12 of the last 13 years. Go back to the 80s and nineties and loads of different teams won.

So even though there are 100 teams in these leagues many of whom have superb managers, less than half a dozen have broken the dominance of the major teams through either luck or good management. Recent history is not littered with examples, it's almost impossible to beat the money to a title, whoever's in charge.

It's not impossible, it's just harder - every single decade there is a team that surprises the big boys (Italy being the exception). We aren't even a small team FFS - we should have been able to use our stability and infrastructure and recent history to leverage better performances from of our teams in the Emirates era.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Littered with examples?

In the EPL . . . Leicester is the only example of a team to beat the oil clubs in 13 years and the manager was sacked the following season and they returned to relegation fodder. So that's not an example of a well managed club.

La Liga . . . Atletico is the only team to break that cycle of Barca/Real in the last 13 years. Now that is a very well managed club. But they've still only done it once.

La Ligue . . PSG, taken over by a country ffs in 2011. In the five years since then one team has broken their run, Monaco. Like City they've spent a fortune to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Bundesliga don't have an oligarch team but the richest team has won it 9 times since 2004 and the second richest twice, only Wolfsburg and Stuttgart have broken them up.

Serie A inter and Juventus have won 12 of the last 13 years. Go back to the 80s and nineties and loads of different teams won.

So even though there are 100 teams in these leagues many of whom have superb managers, less than half a dozen have broken the dominance of the major teams through either luck or good management. Recent history is not littered with examples, it's almost impossible to beat the money to a title, whoever's in charge.

Im sorry but how are any of those foreign teams you mention, PSG aside "oil clubs" compared to the excuse as to why Arsenal cant compete?
They are just big clubs doing what big clubs do, essentially you are arguing that Arsenal football club is a small club now, get used to it, am I wrong?
Were the late 80s/90s teams of AC Milan in Italy that were owned by Berlusconi within those teams you speak of? The perfect example of ridiculous money spend on players, Lentini at a 13m world record for example remember him? As you say though Milan didnt exactly dominate then despite having prime Baresi, Gullit, Rijkaard et al so how does that sit on your leaning tower of stats, it was fairly open wasnt it, as you point out so eruditely? The question is why shouldnt Arsenal spend "the money" or even "some money" and try, I dont fully understand? Maybe we dont have it who knows, I strongly suspect we do though...

 

[Makingtrax]

It's not impossible, it's just harder - every single decade there is a team that surprises the big boys (Italy being the exception). We aren't even a small team FFS - we should have been able to use our stability and infrastructure and recent history to leverage better performances from of our teams in the Emirates era.

It's not impossible but very unlikely.

 

[infinium]

When we were at our peak under Arsène, I always wondered how he would do with a lesser squad with less talented players. I think we have our answer. His hands off approach where players get to develop naturally and freely under subtle guidance is fantastic when you have world-class talent but his lack of tactical preparation and the ability to devise strategies to make better use of good but not worldie players means he is struggling now.

 

[Makingtrax]

Im sorry but how are any of those foreign teams you mention, PSG aside "oil clubs" compared to the excuse as to why Arsenal cant compete?
They are just big clubs doing what big clubs do, essentially you are arguing that Arsenal football club is a small club now, get used to it, am I wrong?
Were the late 80s/90s teams of AC Milan in Italy that were owned by Berlusconi within those teams you speak of? The perfect example of ridiculous money spend on players, Lentini at a 13m world record for example remember him? As you say though Milan didnt exactly dominate then despite having prime Baresi, Gullit, Rijkaard et al so how does that sit on your leaning tower of stats, it was fairly open wasnt it, as you point out so eruditely? The question is why shouldnt Arsenal spend "the money" or even "some money" and try, I dont fully understand? Maybe we dont have it who knows, I strongly suspect we do though...

5th biggest spender in the EPL is not a small club bro. But it ain't going to beat City by spending half as much, that much is clear.

Getting a new manager will change nothing. We need a new owner.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

5th biggest spender in the EPL is not a small club bro. But it ain't going to beat City by spending half as much, that much is clear.

Getting a new manager will change nothing. We need a new owner.

Agreed about the new owner. New manager wouldnt do any harm though would it, lets be honest, I mean its not a level playing field as you say so what is there to lose? You never know you might be surprised and even enjoy a change?
You didnt answer what I said about AC Milan and Italy btw. Perfect example of boom and bust with Italy, you never know in a few years time the premier league profits etc might be a house built on sand and clubs will go bankrupt like they did in Italy back in the late 90s. One thing is for certain in this world, there will always be a whole heap of clever statistician/banker types who look down on other people but will get something wrong and boom will turn to bust eventually. One good thing about Wenger and his economic philosophy such as it is has put a buffer between us and that, which is good. Do I trust the yanks not to play with the club in a way that could harm this footing and make all these years pointless? No, they only understand statistics and profit/loss, doubt they have any sentimental attachment to the club at all and even less an understanding or care for the fans.

 

[pacstud]

so what is there to lose?

Even more games.

 

[Mark Tobias]

L

In the EPL . . . Leicester is the only example of a team to beat the oil clubs in 13 years and the manager was sacked the following season and they returned to relegation fodder. So that's not an example of a well managed club.

Not disputing your post but I must point out that currently LCFC sit 8th on the table. They finished 12th last season, ten points above relegation zone. They've done well in my opinion. Been one of the teams to consistently rob the big six of points each season. Held onto Vardy and Mahrez (for the time being)

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Even more games.

there is that true. maybe we'll go out of the cup next year to a league one or league 2 side if we change manager. still humiliating for a "big" club.

 

[Makingtrax]

When we were at our peak under Arséne, I always wondered how he would do with a lesser squad with less talented players. I think we have our answer.

Told you that jockey was no good, soon as we gave him a donkey he lost the race.

 

[Makingtrax]

Not disputing your post but I must point out that currently LCFC sit 8th on the table. They finished 12th last season, ten points above relegation zone. They've done well in my opinion. Been one of the teams to consistently rob the big six of points each season. Held onto Vardy and Mahrez (for the time being)

Last three years, their average league position is 9th and their squad cost is 10th, so a good match really.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

When we were at our peak under Arséne, I always wondered how he would do with a lesser squad with less talented players. I think we have our answer. His hands off approach where players get to develop naturally and freely under subtle guidance is fantastic when you have world-class talent but his lack of tactical preparation and the ability to devise strategies to make better use of good but not worldie players means he is struggling now.

Yep talent AND leaders are lacking and there's no will there to get leaders certainly. I get the feeling the players dont know what to do once "the plan" goes wrong, look to the bench and the manager is there essentially shrugging his shoulders or telling them to carry on regardless like in the Liverpool game (games?) this season. The subbing off of Lacazette at 70 minutes every game, regardless of game situation is the perfect example of someone just doing the same thing by rote again and again. Presumably because of some s**tty statistic and expecting different results. I cant remember a single game where that sub has effected a game in the positive this season. That would be a useful statistic...

 

[redanddread]

Arsenal need to rebuild their squad imminently and Arsène Wenger is not the man to do it

There's confusion over recruitment at the Emirates and surely a new manager should have the final say on new signings?

https://www.unibet.co.uk/blog/footb...it-1.985577?mktid=52:5211000020:odds_11012018

 

[Mark Tobias]

Arsenal need to rebuild their squad imminently and Arséne Wenger is not the man to do it

There's confusion over recruitment at the Emirates and surely a new manager should have the final say on new signings?

https://www.unibet.co.uk/blog/footb...it-1.985577?mktid=52:5211000020:odds_11012018

Certainly starting to seem like that " catalyst for change" stuff is in the form of some serious backroom power struggle and it looks as if Wenger is losing.

 

[pacstud]

there is that true. maybe we'll go out of the cup next year to a league one or league 2 side if we change manager. still humiliating for a "big" club.

I'm ok with a managerial switch.

I'm simply answering your question. Yes, it can get worse, and sports is "littered", to use a wise man's words, with examples.

To not change out of fear of failure is unwise, but to ignore the risks of failure is equally ignorant. Change only guarantees change. The quality of the change is inherently risky.

 

[RoadrunnerReloaded]

Littered with examples?

In the EPL . . . Leicester is the only example of a team to beat the oil clubs in 13 years and the manager was sacked the following season and they returned to relegation fodder. So that's not an example of a well managed club.

Manchester United won 5 times in that period. They are not an oil club. We also used to be closer to them in resources. Can only blame ourselves there.

La Liga . . . Atletico is the only team to break that cycle of Barca/Real in the last 13 years. Now that is a very well managed club. But they've still only done it once.

Barca and Real have had a massive advantage over the rest of La Liga for decades. Why arbitrarily select 13 years there? Since 99-00(start of the Galactico era) you can also add two Valencia wins and Deportivo's historic La Liga win in 99-00.

That's 4 years out of 18 years. 22% of the time. Its more frequent than you make out.

La Ligue . . PSG, taken over by a country ffs in 2011. In the five years since then one team has broken their run, Monaco. Like City they've spent a fortune to make sure that doesn't happen again.

You are forgetting Montpellier in 2011-12. Twice in 6 years PSG didn't win.

Bundesliga don't have an oligarch team but the richest team has won it 9 times since 2004 and the second richest twice, only Wolfsburg and Stuttgart have broken them up.

Again Dortmund was nowhere near "second richest" when Klopp took over. When they won their first league of the era in 2010-11 they were less rich than Schalke, Stuttgart and Hamburger SV. Leverkusen also finished above Bayern that year btw. At the time Dortmund was still recovering from financial crisis as I linked before.

Yes money gives richer clubs a very obvious advantage. But its definitely not "almost impossible" and definitely not as rare as you want to imply.

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d...it/gx-deloitte-football-money-league-2011.pdf