Emirates Cup - Arsenal Vs Atletico Madrid |01.08.09| 4.15pm

[Floating]

Why the hell is Bendtner continually being played as a bloody wide forward, when van Persie is proven in that role for his NT, and Bendtner is much more of a target man than RvP ever will be?? It literally boggles my mind. :?

 

[Klaus Daimler]

I think you're too hard on Mannone too. I'm definitely not his biggest fan but I was forced to re-evaluate him towards the end of last reserve season. I felt that he had a good game today overall. He pulled off one or two quality saves and generally read the game very well. The rest was nerves and inexperience. I don't think that the space is that big between him and Fabianski. The really exciting prospect is Szczesny though. I'd fancy him to become a better player than both of them in the end.

That's interesting to hear Klaus, so I'm assuming you've watched a fair bit of Mannone and Szczesny. How would you assess their respective abilities and attributes because I haven't seen all that much of either them bar a few reserve/friendly games?

I've only watched them performing for the reserves - and the odd international game, but they're not being broadcasted that much so they're hard to come across - really so I'm not gonna claim any definite truth, but I do watch a lot of reserve games. And goalkeepers. And my opinion about Mannone is that he's an all-round type of player with extreme reflexes and a commanding type of personality. Seems pretty consistent to me but rarely stands out. I never thought much of him until he pulled off a string of very impressive performances towards the end of last season. He pulled one of the best penalty saves I've ever seen against either Sp**s or West Brom. I can't seem to remember which team but I'm pretty sure it was one of them. The penalty was hit low and wide and extremely hard but he saved it with one hand. Still not sure how he managed that without breaking his wrist.

As for Szczesny I think he's some kind of freak of nature. I've only seen him play a handful of times but he's pulled off incredible stunts every time. The few games he played for the reserves last season he was man of the match by a mile. Technically he's one of the best young keepers I've seen, a natural talent. According to Arsenal.com he made his first team debut for Legia Warsaw being just 15 years old. His dad used to be a goalkeeper for Poland too so I guess it runs in the family. He just turned 19 I believe, but judging by the way he plays he looks several years older. I think he's gonna be a regular fixture in the reserves this season so it's gonna be exciting to follow his progress. He's got "first team" written all over him.

 

[outlaw_member]

Floating. I prefer RVP as the focal point, rather than being deployed in a deeper position. He performs much more instinctively when he is leading the line, and I think that is how we will get to see the best of him. He attempts to be too smart when he is deeper on the pitch, and he doesn't have the vision or dribbling speed to warrant playing in such a position. Bendtner on the other hand is far more suited to the flanks, or as a deep lying striker, than he is as a target man.

 

[kamikaze80]

thing with bendtner, too, is that he is awful with his back to goal.

klaus, i havent seen too much of them, either, but i've liked what i've seen from wojech. he looks quick, big and positions himself well. haven't been able to see how well he commands his area and claims crosses, but if he can do that, i think we may have a good one. you can never tell with keepers, though.

 

[McIntyre]

I agree with lagos. I don't think there's anything wrong with either Clichy's or Sagna's crosses. It's just that they're aimed at empty space and no-one is running towards the end of them. Ade used to be good at that. Theoretically both Bendtner and van Persie should be good at it, however they're not. Eduardo is the only player we have who really shows up for those opportunities in the box, and he wasn't on the field for most of the game today. I reckon crossing could still be a good option with him in the team, but we clearly need to find other alternatives when he isn't.

I don't agree. I think the couple of months without seeing them has clouded your memories guys.

Clichy and Sagna are not great crossers. They can occasionally put in a great cross, but are they great crossers and can they do it consistently? Not really.

Both seem to suffer a brain freeze as they run up to strike a cross and they either scuff, overhit or hit the first man. Especially Clichy, he can't hit a first time cross or on the run to save his life, at least not accurately.

Of course, I agree with you that it would help if we had some options in the box, but don't you dare try to say that Ade offered us that option!!! :x Because as far as I'm concerned we've either got sh*t crossers, Ade wasn't hitting the right areas or both. You can't tell me Ade was good in that respect AND Clichy and Sagna are great crossers? :| Because why didn't it result in more goals?

Ade simply did not get on the end of enough crosses to suggest that they were both doing their jobs properly.

If you want to see a striker with good movement, hitting the right areas and getting on the end of crosses go back and review Shearer's games, watch Torres now, or even (and this is really worrying!) watch Peter Crouch or that c*nt Kevin Davies. These people get on the end of crosses, Ade didn't.

However, I agree that we should definitely be looking to put crosses into the box with Eduardo in the team because the guy has the movement, ability in the air and poacher's instinct that could see him get on the end of them.

Although, Clichy and Sagna will still have to work on their crossing ability. You don't just hit the ball into the box aimlessly, it helps to at least hit the right area, then Eduardo, Bendtner, van Persie can try and get onto it. Overhit it when the striker's going near post, or daisycut it when the striker's peeling away at the back stick and there's no point in doing it at all!

 

[ricky1985]

I think you're too hard on Mannone too. I'm definitely not his biggest fan but I was forced to re-evaluate him towards the end of last reserve season. I felt that he had a good game today overall. He pulled off one or two quality saves and generally read the game very well. The rest was nerves and inexperience. I don't think that the space is that big between him and Fabianski. The really exciting prospect is Szczesny though. I'd fancy him to become a better player than both of them in the end.

That's interesting to hear Klaus, so I'm assuming you've watched a fair bit of Mannone and Szczesny. How would you assess their respective abilities and attributes because I haven't seen all that much of either them bar a few reserve/friendly games?

I've only watched them performing for the reserves - and the odd international game, but they're not being broadcasted that much so they're hard to come across - really so I'm not gonna claim any definite truth, but I do watch a lot of reserve games. And goalkeepers. And my opinion about Mannone is that he's an all-round type of player with extreme reflexes and a commanding type of personality. Seems pretty consistent to me but rarely stands out. I never thought much of him until he pulled off a string of very impressive performances towards the end of last season. He pulled one of the best penalty saves I've ever seen against either Sp**s or West Brom. I can't seem to remember which team but I'm pretty sure it was one of them. The penalty was hit low and wide and extremely hard but he saved it with one hand. Still not sure how he managed that without breaking his wrist.

As for Szczesny I think he's some kind of freak of nature. I've only seen him play a handful of times but he's pulled off incredible stunts every time. The few games he played for the reserves last season he was man of the match by a mile. Technically he's one of the best young keepers I've seen, a natural talent. According to Arsenal.com he made his first team debut for Legia Warsaw being just 15 years old. His dad used to be a goalkeeper for Poland too so I guess it runs in the family. He just turned 19 I believe, but judging by the way he plays he looks several years older. I think he's gonna be a regular fixture in the reserves this season so it's gonna be exciting to follow his progress. He's got "first team" written all over him.

Just to add my opinion. I'd agree with everything Klaus said, and emphasise how amazing Mannone's reflexes are. There was another penalty save he made aginst Leroy Lita - Reading reserves. Practically top corner, last minute of the game, outrageous decision by the ref. Stunning save.
The problem is he has brain farts too often, mis-kicks, dropped shots/crosses, rash decisions. However, he is worth persisting with because of 'those' reflexes.

Szczesny has everything. I've never seen him play poorly. Very intelligent and that is what sets him apart. He has every chance of becoming our number 1, in time.

 

[True Gooner]

The problem (for me) is that usually it's usually just a cross into space and we hardly ever emerge from it with the ball, so usually that's the end of our build up. We don't have the personell to contend for , so I'd rather we kept possesion, cut back or do something more imaginative (like Jack did a few times) or if you make a cross, have a target, know who it is u intend to pick out with it!

That's a fair point.

I have nothing against crossing the ball because it mixes up play and pulls the fullbacks away from the center backs but last season we resorted to crosses and long balls for absolutely no reason - even when Adebayor wasn't in the box.

More than anything I want us to start cutting the ball back once we go behind the fullbacks the way Cole did see: Henry vs Inter Milan.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

Of course, I agree with you that it would help if we had some options in the box, but don't you dare try to say that Ade offered us that option!!! :x Because as far as I'm concerned we've either got sh*t crossers, Ade wasn't hitting the right areas or both. You can't tell me Ade was good in that respect AND Clichy and Sagna are great crossers? :| Because why didn't it result in more goals?

Simple answer is: because the ball gets crossed far less often than it's being played along the ground. It did result in goals though, they just weren't restricted to the fullbacks. Ade scored more with his head in two seasons than Henry did in nine years. I think your memory is getting a bit clouded by his performances from last season where he often dropped down too deep or out too wide due to our inability to build up a successful attack.

kami and ricky: Yeah, that's about my stance too. The thing with young keepers is that most of them show off good reflexes instantly since it's such a dominant part of their game. Most of them aren't developed enough in other aspects though, or perhaps their mindset isn't right (at the time Bogdan Lobonţ broke through in Ajax I was certain that he'd become one of the best keepers in the world for example, but it didn't turn out that way and now he's back in Bucarest). With Szczesny you really couldn't tell that he's either young or inexperienced though. It all seems to come very naturally to him. It will be interesting to see how he manages a full season in the reserves. I haven't watched him enough to have an opinion about how consistent he is.

 

[ricky1985]

I think, like all young players, success in the long-term and at the top level, is very closely linked with intelligence.
Look at Jack Wilshere, you would bet everything you have on him becoming a world class footballer, why? Because he doesn't just have talent, everyone has talent at this level, he has supreme intelligence when on a football field. The same with Kieran Gibbs. He is no more talented than Armand Traore, in fact, he may even be the lesser talented of the two, but I'd put all my money on Kieran succeeding over Traore. The difference between the two is there levels of intelligence. Szczesny, is extremely intelligent.

 

[McIntyre]

Of course, I agree with you that it would help if we had some options in the box, but don't you dare try to say that Ade offered us that option!!! :x Because as far as I'm concerned we've either got sh*t crossers, Ade wasn't hitting the right areas or both. You can't tell me Ade was good in that respect AND Clichy and Sagna are great crossers? :| Because why didn't it result in more goals?

Simple answer is: because the ball gets crossed far less often than it's being played along the ground. It did result in goals though, they just weren't restricted to the fullbacks. Ade scored more with his head in two seasons than Henry did in nine years. I think your memory is getting a bit clouded by his performances from last season where he often dropped down too deep or out too wide due to our inability to build up a successful attack.

No Klaus, I promise you my memory is not clouded. I just don't think Ade was very good at hitting the right area. In fact I constantly saw him hitting exactly the wrong area, that which is blocked by a defender or the crosser couldn't actually reach.

I think your reasoning in comparing him with Henry is pretty specious. Henry was notably sh*t in the air. I, personally, don't think he would've been that bad in the air if he'd actually had the balls to put his head in. But it was clear with Henry that he'd never been taught to head the ball. With his pace and ability he started off as a winger and clearly wasn't used to meeting the crosses he was used to putting in.

As a result our team didn't play to him in that way. A cross would be made if there was no other option but Pires and Cole, Ljungberg and Lauren's interplay was designed so that they never ended up crossing to Henry, who simply wouldn't meet it. It happened, obviously, but they knew not to bother most of the time because it was pointless.

Ade went on about having practiced over and over how to head the ball, but was actually pretty awful at it. Or at least his movement and timing didn't help him get it right. For someone who proclaimed to have worked on his heading so much, somebody should've taken the time to teach him the movement and timing to meet those crosses properly. Just for example, you may remember that header he missed point blank against Milan.

Ade scored a few headers but how many of those were from free kicks or corners. In normal play the guy was just awful at being in the right place at the right time.

And this was not helped by the fact that the crossers, notably the full backs, couldn't hit the right cross at the right time.

 

[lagos]

And this was not helped by the fact that the crossers, notably the full backs, couldn't hit the right cross at the right time.

you both made some good points but this is one of my biggest issues with our crosses. In the end it's just a cross for the sake of it!

 

[outlaw_member]

McIntyre is spot on regarding Ade's inability to meet crosses. He was only ever good in the air if the ball was perfectly planted on his head. Compare that to Bendtner, who actually attack's any crosses that are put into the box.

 

[Nela]

McIntyre is spot on regarding Ade's inability to meet crosses. He was only ever good in the air if the ball was perfectly planted on his head. Compare that to Bendtner, who actually attack's any crosses that are put into the box.

Bendtner has technique, which Ade doesn't. Ade was good at using his height/jump to get up high but almost always scored headers with his forehead and while positionally being right in front of the goal. Bendtner can do that too, but he can also glance or direct balls into the net from an angle by a good touch on the top of his head(e.g. Cardiff goal, Newcastle). I can't really recall Adebayor doing that.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

McIntyre is spot on regarding Ade's inability to meet crosses. He was only ever good in the air if the ball was perfectly planted on his head.

Not true at all. He also possessed great chest control. Even so, the point wasn't his heading technique but how he moved into spaces where crosses were delivered. He did that much more often than both van Persie and Bendtner.

I can't really recall Adebayor doing that.

Aston Villa away. Fulham home - twice in the same game.

 

[Anzac]

McIntyre is spot on regarding Ade's inability to meet crosses. He was only ever good in the air if the ball was perfectly planted on his head. Compare that to Bendtner, who actually attack's any crosses that are put into the box.

Bendtner has technique, which Ade doesn't. Ade was good at using his height/jump to get up high but almost always scored headers with his forehead and while positionally being right in front of the goal. Bendtner can do that too, but he can also glance or direct balls into the net from an angle by a good touch on the top of his head(e.g. Cardiff goal, Newcastle). I can't really recall Adebayor doing that.

Agreed with everything being said recently in regard to Ade's heading ability = tripe & just as bad as our crossing.

IMO he's what I'd call a set piece header - he works best in dead ball scenarios where he's in the box & the ball is delivered no further out than the penalty spot & he's facing goal = his lack of technique made him very limited as he wasn't able to put any work on the ball.

His heading in open play or in build up is ****e - he mistimes his jump, doesn't really get off the ground & more often than not is under the ball so he has no control. Too often his headers in build up were just skids off the top of his head (not the play of a target man when playing as the lone striker), and in more than 1 games over the past 2 seasons he's spurned multiple chances inside the 6 yrd area. There was a game in his 30 goal season when he & Nik played together (A v NUFC???), where Ade not only put a half dozen headers over the bar from around the 6 yrd box, but he was also taking headers off Nik who was in a better position to meet the ball, and was commiting fouls in doing so. There was another game at Home where he was doing the same thing. The only time I can recall him using his heading ability as a target man was his knock down to Eduardo for his goal (A v ManC???).

 

[Anzac]

[Not true at all. He also possessed great chest control. Even so, the point wasn't his heading technique but how he moved into spaces where crosses were delivered. He did that much more often than both van Persie and Bendtner.

I can't really recall Adebayor doing that.

Aston Villa away. Fulham home - twice in the same game.

Agreed that his ability to take the ball on his chest was brilliant & this is where he excelled as a target. As for meeting crosses = IMO it had as much to do with his assumption that anything in the box was his, and that more often RVP & Bendtner were involved in creating the opportunity - he was played as a lone striker.

 

[Anzac]

Back on topic.

So 2-1 with AA coming off the bench to score both.
Wilshere MOTM.

I take it we played 4321 with the central striker leading the line?
How was our general play - particularly when Cesc wasn't in the midfield?

 

[outlaw_member]

Not true at all. He also possessed great chest control. Even so, the point wasn't his heading technique but how he moved into spaces where crosses were delivered. He did that much more often than both van Persie and Bendtner.

I can't really recall Adebayor doing that.

Aston Villa away. Fulham home - twice in the same game.

He was good aerially if the ball was aimed within his vicinity, but if there was a flighted cross which wasn't particularly targeted at anyone, you were rarely ever going to see him attack the ball. There were too many times where a cross was put in, only to see Adebayor strolling around with little intent to make it even remotely productive.

 

[Nela]

I can't really recall Adebayor doing that.

Aston Villa away. Fulham home - twice in the same game.

Do you mean Fulham away in 07/08? I just rewatched Ade's three goals in those two matches and they exemplify exactly what I was talking about with Ade's headers and are not at all like the examples of Bendtner's technique I was talking about.

 

[A_Gooner_Matata]

I didn't see the game, but there's one reason why we're twice as good now as we were at the beginning of last season: Arshavin.