EPL – Man Utd vs Arsenal – 12:45pm – 3/11/12 | SS2

[bingobob]

Fabregas was world class from age 18 onwards, I think some people still don't realise what a unique talent we've let slip for next to nothing. Not necessarily aimed at you el57, just putting it out there.

Also think 07/08 was pretty much a case of everything falling our way until that Birmingham game, after which basically everything went against us. There was a lot of quality and fight in that team though, shame Hleb and Flamini decided to jump ship straight away.

We win that one game and the last 4 years turn out very differently. Success breeds success

edit: we got lucky at things going our way today with the other results

 

[dyeruz]

No one is saying we don't spend money.
It is the alarming difference between what we sell compared to what buy that is the problem.

Not one of the players that were sold were replaced by a better player.

We should have bought the players you listed to play alongside the players I listed, not instead of.

Carzola looks like he is going to end up even better than, say Nasri?

Anyway, here we go:
Q1 - Who is the one that constantly allows key players to run down their contracts, thereby weakening our bargaining position? Next on the list is Walcott and Sagna, am I correct?
Q2 - Who should be the one to take the responsibility that our crosses are not up to standard? Or the players' lack of understanding on others' through passes? Or that no matter what Giroud does whenever a ball is pumped to him, it frequently ends up intercepted by the opponent thereafter? I thought we have training sessions all the time, from the pictures I've seen on arsenal.com.
Q3 - Assume that Giroud isnt even better than Chamakh or Adebayor. Who was the one that wanted to buy him? Or Chamakh? Or even Park?
Q4 - Who selects the players to start the games? And the formation used?

@ 49,
I suspect we actually have some opinions in common. Where we differ in this case is, you're focussing on the amount, I'm focussing on the person who uses it. And what he does to develop, cultivate, etc after he buys the players with it.

"We don't buy superstars; we make them". From the originator of those words, I believe that is where the answer (or blame) can be found.

I think you'll find the answer to most is Wenger. Obviously there are those that handle negotiations as such but Wenger knows who signed when, where, for how much and how long they've got, as I'm sure Gazidis and most of the higher ups do.
But when the situation is, you can run down your contract
a) Most likely get a wage increase at your next club
b)Go to a club that challenges and wins something

why would you sign? Cesc..winner, Nasri, Clichy, Toure..winners, Song and RVP most likely will win some form of trophy in the next two years, Adebayor. Copa Del Rey...yeah you'll laugh but it's still more than anything Arsenal has won

So yeah Walcott and Sagna are looking at it going why not?

 

[eye4goal]

07-08 didn't really have a world class player in it. Fabregas was still too young, and Adebayor (!) had a freak season that flattered to deceive.

We had more stability back then. The three playmakers Cesc, Rosicky and Hleb had been playing together for a couple of years. Wilshere hasn't played a game with Arteta until last week. The team has almost completely changed since he last played so in essence he is another player settling in to add to Giroud, Podolski and Cazorla(he's hit the ground running but he'll still improve I think).

I also think that back then Hleb, Clichy, Sagna and Flamini were all probably considered world-class(they all had the season of their career back then)

 

[dyeruz]

While we are all dissapointed with our game today, at least City, Sp**s(LOST AT HOME TO WIGAN LOL!), Everton and Chelsea all dropped points too. I never expected a win today (though I ofcourse hoped and believed!), so overall not 'too' bad.

it's not losing but the level of performance, such is our ambition United are streaking ahead and we're happy to see others lose or draw.

 

[Tranquil]

While we are all dissapointed with our game today, at least City, Sp**s(LOST AT HOME TO WIGAN LOL!), Everton and Chelsea all dropped points too. I never expected a win today (though I ofcourse hoped and believed!), so overall not 'too' bad.

it's not losing but the level of performance, such is our ambition United are streaking ahead and we're happy to see others lose or draw.

That is the reason I said 'our game' not just the points.

 

[evoh_1]

tired of this sort of performance and didn't break a sweat as it is becoming so standard now, we played badly but those players are not as bad as 1 offside goal for 270 minutes+ of league play.

Wenger is a dinosaur of the past and his bargain experienced signings aren't there anymore as everyone knows the market now and on top of that his game management and tactics are in the dark ages.

Best thing is to let him move away from managing and into another role and get the board to actually spend some money on building a team that can challenge at the top. Wenger's brief at the moment seems to be to just get a team that will get 4th.

 

[boyinneedofhumor]

But when the situation is, you can run down your contract
a) Most likely get a wage increase at your next club
b)Go to a club that challenges and wins something

why would you sign? Cesc..winner, Nasri, Clichy, Toure..winners, Song and RVP most likely will win some form of trophy in the next two years, Adebayor. Copa Del Rey...yeah you'll laugh but it's still more than anything Arsenal has won

So yeah Walcott and Sagna are looking at it going why not?

I wouldn't blame them if they went too. Or Carzola. Or Koscielny. Or Mertesacker. Or Arteta. Or etc.

The person who "hired" them in is the one who gave them false hopes.
Yet at the crux when leadership and clear instructions are needed to turn a game around, he's either
a) biting his fingernails in desperation at the dugout,
b) kicking a bottle on the sidelines, or
c) moaning to his assistant/the fourth official.
d) etc.

If a, b & c are actually hidden signals to his team on how a game should be specifically played, I will take back my words and apologize.

 

[karl]

I can accept the defeat in a day or two easily enough. I know we cannot always be best, but it is the general demeanor of the players that is so disturbing. It feels like I don't understand what happened to Arsenal and their spirit. We have gone from Keown jumping all over Van Nistelrooy to some kind of big love in with opposing players and swapping shirts at half time. They are not desperate enough to win and Wenger is too easy on them obviously. I felt quite sickened watching those scenes.

 

[infineon]

I also think that back then Hleb, Clichy, Sagna and Flamini were all probably considered world-class(they all had the season of their career back then)

Maybe not world class but 07/08 certainly had a lot world-class potential and plenty of experience at the top level of football. Gallas, Adebayor, Rosicky and Hleb had Champions League experience already with their previous clubs. Flamini, Clichy, Fabregas, Walcott, RVP had grown up with us and we still had the old guard in Lehmann, Toure and Gilberto.

 

[Hunta]

Sagna was immense in his first season, arguably the best RB in the world that season.

 

[pikey2000]

People saying it doesn't matter today because Sp**s and Chelsea screwed up are missing the point - rather than thinking "ah well, not much lost as everyone else screwed up too" we should be thinking "FFS missed a massive opportunity to gain ground on Chelsea and start creating a gap with Sp**s and Everton"

I've lost count of the amount of times we bottled our opportunities to take advantage of opponents slip ups, used to be we said it was down to the young age of the squad or lack of leadership - now we see older players and some strong pro's and nothing has changed.

Maybe the players weren't the issue after all.

 

[Coypus]

Coypus,

What boyinneedofhumor is saying is that Wenger isn't getting the most out of the resources already at his disposal. He gave examples of players we've spent quite a bit on as evidence that we've actually spent on new players, so that is not the issue.

So we start playing like a fat Sam team? Why because the player we have bought are bargain basement while we have sold quality. Off course spending is the issue look at the now top 3. Did buying RVP weaken Utd and strengthen Arsenal?

We need better players we have too much deadweight and too many sick notes..

 

[GunnerBP]

The crazy thing about this game was that none of our players looked angry at RVP. As a fan I can't stand RVP, but watching our players not seem the slightest bit angry with him was unexpected. It could be that they just don't have the fight to be winners, but I got the feeling that there's a lot more to this story that as a fan I just can't find out.

It looked like all of our players missed RVP and not just because of his goals, but because they expected him to be part of this team. Additionally, RVP didn't look in the slightest bit happy to play against us. He scored his goal because it was gifted to him on a platter, but apart from that he didn't look like he gave 100 percent to beat us.

With RVP in our squad we'd obviously be in a much better position in the league and everyone on the pitch today knew this and 12 players looked upset about this reality.

I'm sure Wenger will get this team playing better and we'll probably qualify for the Champions League again, but this match really showed how damaging the sale of RVP was.

Based on the events of this summer I felt RVP's situation at Arsenal had become untenable, but watching our players and RVP interact it was pretty clear that all of the players would still love for him to be an Arsenal player. When that's the case it's hard to think that a 30+ goal scorer can no longer be welcomed at a top club, especially one that is unwilling to pay the amounts required to buy another striker who can produce similar numbers.

 

[RUS arsenal]

Sigh, here comes the usual annual Wenger hate and claims that manager A, B, C would do so much better with "resources" (?!) Arsène has access to...

Truth of the matter, we, as a team, are in a slump and need to figure out how to come out of it. This is a shared responsibility by everyone at the club, the managers, the players, the leaders in the dressing room, the home support: everyone!

 

[Tranquil]

The crazy thing about this game was that none of our players looked angry at RVP. As a fan I can't stand RVP, but watching our players not seem the slightest bit angry with him was unexpected. It could be that they just don't have the fight to be winners, but I got the feeling that there's a lot more to this story that as a fan I just can't find out.

I dont know about that. There were a couple of nasty tackles on him (Wilshere could have got sent off earlier for one I believe) and the general feeling towards him during the 90 mins was that he was just another United player. Which is the best attitude imo.

Dont hate him, forget him.

 

[infineon]

walcott would prolly take a pay cut to play with RVP at United

 

[dyeruz]

The crazy thing about this game was that none of our players looked angry at RVP. As a fan I can't stand RVP, but watching our players not seem the slightest bit angry with him was unexpected. It could be that they just don't have the fight to be winners, but I got the feeling that there's a lot more to this story that as a fan I just can't find out.

It looked like all of our players missed RVP and not just because of his goals, but because they expected him to be part of this team. Additionally, RVP didn't look in the slightest bit happy to play against us. He scored his goal because it was gifted to him on a platter, but apart from that he didn't look like he gave 100 percent to beat us.

With RVP in our squad we'd obviously be in a much better position in the league and everyone on the pitch today knew this and 12 players looked upset about this reality.

I'm sure Wenger will get this team playing better and we'll probably qualify for the Champions League again, but this match really showed how damaging the sale of RVP was.

Based on the events of this summer I felt RVP's situation at Arsenal had become untenable, but watching our players and RVP interact it was pretty clear that all of the players would still love for him to be an Arsenal player. When that's the case it's hard to think that a 30+ goal scorer can no longer be welcomed at a top club, especially one that is unwilling to pay the amounts required to buy another striker who can produce similar numbers.

They shouldn't be angry at RVP at all, RVP has moved on and is now in a team that will be there or there about at the end of the season challenging for something.

We all look at these players from the myopic view of Arsenal football club, forgetting bar Gibbs and Jack, they've all come from other clubs were players move on, amid contract wrangles, falling out with managers etc etc.

Just as at the end of the day these other players will do what is best for them and their families they understand that RVP was doing what he had to do, whether they agree with it or not, they'll be buddies long after they have left the club.

 

[Invincible]

Coypus,

What boyinneedofhumor is saying is that Wenger isn't getting the most out of the resources already at his disposal. He gave examples of players we've spent quite a bit on as evidence that we've actually spent on new players, so that is not the issue.

So we start playing like a fat Sam team? Why because the player we have bought are bargain basement while we have sold quality. Off course spending is the issue look at the now top 3. Did buying RVP weaken Utd and strengthen Arsenal?

We need better players we have too much deadweight and too many sick notes..

Well, that's what the self harmer's left us with. If you have Sam Allardyce type players, you play like a Sam Allardyce team. Simples.

Our best striker is a big target man, let's play to his strengths.

Playing the passing game with him on the team would fail every time because he's not suited to it.

This is what I don't get about the self harmer:

He wants to play like Barcelona with slow, lazy, static and technically limited players.

:?

 

[infineon]

I think we need to protect our defence more. Wilshere-Arteta is too light-weight for me away at Old Trafford. Last season our two CBs were the busiest pair in the PL and it looks to be a similar story this season especially ever since Diaby got injured.

No amount of midfield cover though is going to help if your CBs make **** ups.

 

[eye4goal]

I think we need to protect our defence more. Wilshere-Arteta is too light-weight for me away at Old Trafford. Last season our two CBs were the busiest pair in the PL and it looks to be a similar story this season especially ever since Diaby got injured.