If Defoe signs it will be soon.....????

[lewdikris]

J is absolutely right. Particularly about Kluivert - and about Henry and Pires. Only Reyes (who's like Kewell) would be technically able enough to supplement them - like Bergy used to do.

Defoe (or Eto'o) is from the other half of Wengerball - pace, power and strength: see Cole, Campbell, Toure, Vieira, Freddie. Who are the main numerical part of the team. Henry and Pires have that, but only they have the added technique - maybe only they NEED to have it.

 

[reggiepaul]

As Myles Palmer says in his piece, the striker we should sign should "add a vital new dimension to this Arsenal team."

We were talking about this a while back here about supplementing Henry and the teams play. Hell even I said that over a month ago.

I know some of you want to have Myles Palmers babies but can't we make this a Myles Palmer free zone. He only mentions things that you already know about and have heard people in the pub talk about. I know for loners it's a whole new thing but can we just stall it all.

I don't know what Wengerball is. Never really bothered. Thought Wenger played football and a counter attacking game born of the Italian and Dutch teams of the Eighties and the great strikers and atacking midfielders of that reign. In that phase you used to see the likes of the whole team involved in the make up of play.

The thing with the whole Pires and Henry is not that they are the make up of the whole team but Pires adapting to a central role when Henry shifts left. Yes - this is where they come to shine but it's blatantly disrespectful to say Henry and Pires are the machine behind all this and the likes of our other players, Freddie, Gilberto, Ashley and Vieira - are just techniqueless. They all play a part and a significant one at that. The only reason Henry and Pires are major factors is down to their dominance when attacking and passing.

 

[lewdikris]

You completely misunderstood the point Reggie. It's not a criticism. In terms of individual attacking skill Bobby and Titi are capable of things no-one else in the team is - but they'd be nothing without the rest, who are the cake on which they are two very big cherries. Not better players, but different from the rest - Pires particularly.

 

[JGooner]

Originally posted by JGooner:
As Myles Palmer says in his piece, the striker we should sign should "add a vital new dimension to this Arsenal team."



We were talking about this a while back here about supplementing Henry and the teams play. Hell even I said that over a month ago.

No, you were saying something very different and not totally coherent, but let's not recycle old news. Also, I didn't say Freddie, Cole, Vieira, etc are "techniqueless". I said the opposite. The exact opposite. Maybe you misread the sentence.

 

[reggiepaul]

I see then all as completely different players playing in their position. The difference in our team is they've learnt to play with each other. Experience increases development.

Cole - does his job at the back

Henry - does his job at the front

Nothing unique really but a team of players playing football in their position. The point I was making is basically if you want to highlight attackign prowess let's highlight defensive prowess as well - or our prowess in central midfield because it's not like these guys we are singling out as "special" are out and out capable at the opposite ends of the field? No, because they are not expected to be. They play in their position.

Henry, when he shifts left moves Pires central and Fred on to the right to basically operate as the men needed for that job. Be they last men, assists or simply to hold posession. It doesn't matter as long as they fit in.

Ultimately, no one player adds such a dimension to a team that the people around him are forgotten. Every player is important but the more important are usually your central midfield men who operate forwards and back giving cover to our attack and defence. They control exactly what is occurring. This attention to detail for the attack is really bizarre since they tend to switch on when the central midfield give them the go ahead.

Like I said, I don't see the brilliance or whatever Wengerball is. Just a group of people playing well, very well together. They know each other well but we can't single out certain player when in fact they operate and strive on those around them. If it was so brilliant and unique it would relative to the attacking job at hand but a game of football is attack, defend, hold posession and gain posession. Pires is mainly our left hand man - now how many people would pause and reflect on the dominance on the right with Fred and Kolo? That is complementary of the left but also of everywhere else.

 

[reggiepaul]

No, you were saying something very different and not totally coherent, but let's not recycle old news. Also, I didn't say Freddie, Cole, Vieira, etc are "techniqueless". I said the opposite. The exact opposite. Maybe you misread the sentence.

er... nope recycle it and you'll find that's what I said.

http://www.arsenal-mania.com/forum/view ... ght=#27343

Pretty coherent as well.

The techniqueless wasn't related to you.

 

[Beany]

English?

Because they have both played in the Prem. No need to bed down & both available for the CL. And what's all this about anyway?! I hope it's not being suggested there's some racial overtone and I'm running around with a white pointy hat:- Last time I looked Defoe & Et'oo were both black.

No - don't be an absolute ninny. You can hope as much as you want but you won't get soap opera atmospheres here.

When you just say "They are English", it means nothing other than that has some massive importance to it. No reference to the premier league or playing football in England - just they are English.

Still Eto'o has been playing overseas so he isn't related to the whole "English" thing so why would you want to hyperbole matters and state there is racist overtones to it? Defoe has been in division one for a while now and didn't really help matters while in the premiership. That kinda deflates things doesn't it. Especially when Smith is kinda scraping the bottom end of the premiership too. English? We need Arsenal content. A whole different ball game.

As for the whole English grit - how about the Scots or the Welsh? Don't they have players who fight? The Northern Irish - so it's a British thing right? No. Let's put Roy and Robbie Keane in to the mix as well - and make it the British Isles thing - but even then it's total pants as well because we can extend our reach to Dutch players and Swedish and Danish players as well. Russian players?

It's a northern thing really but then again it isn't. French players winning the European finals and the World cup and Brazilian players. A whole team of "English" players and what do we do? Blame the ref. It is our continental edge that has won our game.

I think is the biggest cop out stating, he is "english" as though it's something special when at Arsenal we survive and win week in week out on determination and heart pushed in to our talent - not wrestlers stances diving in.

I'm not trying to start a ruck here but with respect, your concern with my use of the word "English" as opposed to "British" (or "UK citizen" if you prefer) and the general tone of your post suggests that you have some kind of giant chip on your shoulder; At the very least it illustates dramatic tendancies on your part.

You raised the point not me.

I was referring, of couse, to those who do or have recently performed in the English Premiership. Which I think is pretty obvious. Perhaps your perception of it, as someone who lives or has exercised their right to live outside the UK, is different in which case I am sorry; though from where i'm sitting your argument takes knitpicking to a whole new level. Anyroad, I trust I have now made my position clear.

Dutch players? How long did it take Bergkamp to settle?

We are discussing a mid season signing. If we buy anyone he must make an immediate impact. I don't see either Defoe or Smith as representing anything near the bottom of the barrel. They are both Premiership quality strikers who have the potential to be better than they currently are. On you analysis Ian Wright should have stayed at Palace!

Also, if you think that most Premiership players are a joke (as appears to be the case) why do you follow Premiership football at all!?

 

[reggiepaul]

I'm not trying to start a ruck here but with respect, your concern with my use of the word "English" as opposed to "British" (or "UK citizen" if you prefer) and the general tone of your post suggests that you have some kind of giant chip on your shoulder; At the very least it illustates dramatic tendancies on your part.

You said they are English, that could mean absolutely anything. I said "what's being english got to do with it?", nothing else because what you said could mean anything. Then you dramatised it meaning youthought people would think you are racists or something crazy like that.

You raised the point not me.

I was referring, of couse, to those who do or have recently performed in the English Premiership. Which I think is pretty obvious. Perhaps your perception of it, as someone who lives or has exercised their right to live outside the UK, is different in which case I am sorry; though from where i'm sitting your argument takes knitpicking to a whole new level. Anyroad, I trust I have now made my position clear.

Dutch players? How long did it take Bergkamp to settle?

Thought Bergs settled in pretty well.

We are discussing a mid season signing. If we buy anyone he must make an immediate impact. I don't see either Defoe or Smith as representing anything near the bottom of the barrel. They are both Premiership quality strikers who have the potential to be better than they currently are. On you analysis Ian Wright should have stayed at Palace!

Also, if you think that most Premiership players are a joke (as appears to be the case) why do you follow Premiership football at all!?

I don't think Premiership Players are a joke. Don't know how you fish out these things from what people say. It's like one of those movies where the black guy says "he just insulted your moma" when there was little or no reference to him mum at all.

Ian Wright at Palace? (your use of the exclamation point is interesting) Don't be silly. I basically talked about cutting it in the premiership and the premiership has evolved massively since then. Yet Ian Wright was extra special prior to all this. We were talking someone who was really brilliant and we got him at the right time. Back then Arsenal were a totally different outfit as well. Pre-Wenger and double season a totally different team. We're Arsenal now - take a good look.

I was relating Defoe and Smith as players for the premiership when they can't effectively cut it. Defoe I would give a go because he shows skill but not nessecarily in a massive way. I would think someone overseas would be far better. I can't see how the premiership is really that different that we MUST buy someone English or it would be 80 90% a good idea. Doesn't make sense. Yet the fact is one of them is scraping at the bottom of the premiership while the other is in the first division now so THEN we want them to play at Arsenal. Now we all know Arsenal and the players in place there. A goalscoring whizzkid Jeffers found difficulty in being something.

It's not at all easy and Aliadiere could be the biggest thing we have at present. It's all presumptious and vague really but whoever we get I hope he does a great job.

 

[Beany]

I'm not trying to start a ruck here but with respect, your concern with my use of the word "English" as opposed to "British" (or "UK citizen" if you prefer) and the general tone of your post suggests that you have some kind of giant chip on your shoulder; At the very least it illustates dramatic tendancies on your part.

You said they are English, that could mean absolutely anything. I said "what's being english got to do with it?", nothing else because what you said could mean anything. Then you dramatised it meaning youthought people would think you are racists or something crazy like that.

You raised the point not me.

I was referring, of couse, to those who do or have recently performed in the English Premiership. Which I think is pretty obvious. Perhaps your perception of it, as someone who lives or has exercised their right to live outside the UK, is different in which case I am sorry; though from where i'm sitting your argument takes knitpicking to a whole new level. Anyroad, I trust I have now made my position clear.

Dutch players? How long did it take Bergkamp to settle?

Thought Bergs settled in pretty well.

We are discussing a mid season signing. If we buy anyone he must make an immediate impact. I don't see either Defoe or Smith as representing anything near the bottom of the barrel. They are both Premiership quality strikers who have the potential to be better than they currently are. On you analysis Ian Wright should have stayed at Palace!

Also, if you think that most Premiership players are a joke (as appears to be the case) why do you follow Premiership football at all!?

I don't think Premiership Players are a joke. Don't know how you fish out these things from what people say. It's like one of those movies where the black guy says "he just insulted your moma" when there was little or no reference to him mum at all.

Ian Wright at Palace? (your use of the exclamation point is interesting) Don't be silly. I basically talked about cutting it in the premiership and the premiership has evolved massively since then. Yet Ian Wright was extra special prior to all this. We were talking someone who was really brilliant and we got him at the right time. Back then Arsenal were a totally different outfit as well. Pre-Wenger and double season a totally different team. We're Arsenal now - take a good look.

I was relating Defoe and Smith as players for the premiership when they can't effectively cut it. Defoe I would give a go because he shows skill but not nessecarily in a massive way. I would think someone overseas would be far better. I can't see how the premiership is really that different that we MUST buy someone English or it would be 80 90% a good idea. Doesn't make sense. Yet the fact is one of them is scraping at the bottom of the premiership while the other is in the first division now so THEN we want them to play at Arsenal. Now we all know Arsenal and the players in place there. A goalscoring whizzkid Jeffers found difficulty in being something.

It's not at all easy and Aliadiere could be the biggest thing we have at present. It's all presumptious and vague really but whoever we get I hope he does a great job.

Hmm.. I think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would understand the thrust of my point re "English" players. Your response to it it intimated, strogly, that I must by definition have some kind of problem with everyone else. Which is a pretty bizarre point to make.

Berg didn't score for what, 12 odd games? All the papers were calling him the next Charlie Nicholas (please note this comment is not in any way intended to pan the Scottish Nation).

"Wrestlers diving in"; ring any bells? your description of Premiership players.

I've never viewed exclamation marks as particularly interesting. Personally I prefer the semi colon.

We may just have to agree to disagree on the merits of Smith & Defoe. Life is too short.

 

[Adam]

Defoe is as good as anyone for the price that is being quoted. We can reminisce about Kluivert's raw ability all we like, but the plain fact is that his attitude stinks. You're talking about a guy who basically believes his career was complete when he won the CL as a teenager, and who has played the following 8 years in the comfort zone. It has now reached the stage where he struggles to keep his weight down. Of coure he's a class above Defoe in talent, but his wages will be higher and his commitment will be weaker. There are no no-risk transfers but Defoe would be as sound as they come: young english talent who'll need no time to settle, proven premiership goal record, arsenal fan since boyhood, solves our key attacking problem (the absence of a predator to finish off chances), and available at a reasonable fee (supposedly - we can't be sure).

Whether he conforms with Wengerball is irrelevant, although I think he probably does. As Myles Palmer says in his piece, the striker we should sign should "add a vital new dimension to this Arsenal team." This doesn't mean he should rip up our existing style of play, but simply give us more options WITHIN our existing style of play. Harry Kewell, as Palmer suggests, would have been the absolute stone cold ideal for this role but the fact is that he went elsewhere. Defoe is a far more limited player, but he's available.

Incidentally, the only players in the team who truly define Wengerball are Henry and Pires. The rest are good players who have the technique and speed to fit into the overall system. Defoe would be no different.

Excellent post.

Let's also not forget Bergkamp helped to define this Arsenal.

Nowadays two outstanding individuals (Pires and Henry) who can dribble, assist and score heavily; have helped to shape our offensive elements. Just because they are such individuals; it doesn't mean that the rest are "good players fitting in".

Wenger likes to see players as having roles. The rest aren't just fitting into the system - they are creating and forming it as Wenger keeps on evolving his ideas on Wengerball.

In something as fine tuned as this Arsenal team - it's important to see the contribution of each player and the dimensions they bring to our game.

Some would argue Vieira is Arsène's main Wengerball player as for 1. He is the main player pressing high up the pitch, and 2. He is the player who has most of the ball. 3. Power player. He was also Wenger's first power player signing - the other side of this team; it's athleticism.

Let's also not forget Wengers vision of the back four (now you have talked about the front 6) - a core of English players with grit is what he has specified in the past. So the defensive elements of Wengerball stays with English tradition.

 

[reggiepaul]

I don't mind what you say and I do agree with it to an extent but just relax a little. Bergs didn't score but I felt he had a good start. I understood your English player thing later - but you have to admit one sentence saying "they are english", is open to interpretation in many different ways.

Yes I don't like the Wrestlers diving in stance of English players but that doesn't mean that ALL premiership players are like that or all english players are like that but more importantly, that all players who have the wrestlers stance don't have benefits that over ride that totally. Gerrard - Scholes?

 

[Anonymous]

If we sign Defoe, which i doubt we will (he is not worth 8 million, and i think i am right in saying his contact is up next year) it will be for a replacement for Wiltord. I think they are two very similar players and it now looks likely that Wiltord will be off in the summer.

A forward line of Henry, Ali, Defoe and Kanu for next year looks very good, but at the same time very lightweight.

If we did sign Defoe i wouldnt really know what to make of it. He has never really impressed me when he has played agianst us, and those are the only times i have seen him play full games, so it is hard to make a full assessment of him. From seeing highlights of him he looks a great finisher, a goal he scored against Newcastle last year sticks in my head.

When it looked like he was going to the mancs in the summer i remember thinking i wouldnt mind them signing him because he is not that good. There is no doubt that Eto'o is a better player and i would much prefer us to hold on untill the summer to sign him.

 

[jc8gooner]

They are English. They could slip right in.

This is an example of how context is helpful. If you take the remark 'They are English' out of context, it can be ambiguous. But if you look at the above quote of what Beany originally said, it becomes clear that the remark refers to the fact that the English players do not need to adapt to the Premiership, whereas most foreigners coming from outside the Premiership need a settling in period of at least six months.

 

[reggiepaul]

Could I ask you something? Why do you always pop up straight after someone has come to an agreement only to make matters worse?

Yes but it's a sentence so it is immediately out of context.

"They are English SO they could slip right in", is more defining of what he meant but if you look at exactly what he said "I'd take either of the other two. They are better than what we have. They are English. They could slip right in." Which are all sentences so could either be unrelated or related. You use sentences to seperate things that aren't related. Even someone else even saw it the way I did. We can't immediately assume things that haven't actually been said. You just want to disagree because you're a trouble causer.

Anyway, stop stalking me. GO and do your homework. What's your problem? Do you get some orgasmic surge from starting trouble?