Mesut Özil: Time to Move Ön?

[say yes]

The numbers back me up though. But those ones apparently don't count.

Which numbers are those?

You've claimed that he does as much as anyone defensively. Well here are the numbers on defensive interactions (again):

Here are Opta's defensive stats for the season on our main 6 attacking players (Auba, Laca, Özil, Mkhi, Iwobi, Ramsey). All have over 1000 mins in the league so nice sample size.

Minutes per attempted tackle:
Ramsey - 28.6
Mkhitaryan - 34.1
Lacazette - 37.1
Iwobi - 42.4
Özil - 44.1
Aubameyang - 56

Tackle % rate:
Mkhitaryan - 73.5%
Lacazette - 60.8%
Ramsey - 56.8%
Iwobi - 52.8%
Aubameyang - 52.6%
Özil - 48.1%

Minutes per interception:
Mkhitaryan - 105.5
Lacazette - 126
Iwobi - 138.9
Ramsey - 151.1
Aubameyang - 303.9
Özil - 397

Minutes per (clearances + blocks + interceptions):
Lacazette - 47.3
Iwobi - 69.5
Mkhitaryan - 72.5
Aubameyang - 92.5
Ramsey - 117.6
Özil - 170.1

Minutes per attempted aerial duel:
Lacazette - 17.7
Aubameyang - 23.1
Mkhitaryan - 31.4
Ramsey - 39.2
Iwobi - 72.8
Özil - 119.1

Minutes per attempted ground duel:
Lacazette - 10.6
Mkhitaryan - 11.5
Ramsey - 12.0
Iwobi - 11.9
Özil - 17.0
Aubameyang - 19.5

You've also claimed that he runs/sprints as much as anyone but, using the sky sports link on last season's running stats that @squallman posted (and I presume you've read because you liked his post):

The numbers become less impressive, however, when they are broken down on a per 90 minute basis. Özil, who played 2847 minutes last season, actually ranked ninth for distance run per 90 minutes and 10th for sprints per 90 minutes among the 15 Arsenal players who played a minimum of 1000 minutes.

Hardly impressive stuff. Let alone when you realise who that group of 15 contained.

 

[arsenefc]

i love Özil

 

[GDeep™]

i love Özil

We all do.

 

[arsenefc]

We all do.

all you need is love. love is all you need.

 

[OSBK]

I'm saying that's exactly what we should be doing, but we're not doing that. So is there really a reason to hold on to such an expensive player if we rarely use him, and when we do we can't get the best out of him? I don't think so.

There is no "we" cannot get the best out if him. 2 managers have failed to get the best out him, if they cannot manage Özil but can manage mustafi that says everything. Arsenal also have a board who came out and said wenger can buy anyone aside from messi, and then wenger buys mustafi. Ozils failure at this club is never a "we" thing, its the clubs failure. The club that closed its doors to the top talent in europe for theo/Wilshere/gibbs etc. As for expense just like to remind you that wenger paid 35mill for mustafi and turned down van dijk at 12mill. Wenger signed xhaka for 35mill and let kante goto the crispy team for peanuts. Thats expense for you, all that money spunked up the wall for players who should be playing for watford.

My point is all the garbage we have currently and there is 1 guy who can give us alittle magic every now and again then im all for keeping that.

 

[GDeep™]

all you need is love. love is all you need.

“I've always said that you can live without water for many days, but you can't live for a second without love”.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

Which numbers are those?

You've claimed that he does as much as anyone defensively. Well here are the numbers on defensive interactions (again):


You've also claimed that he runs/sprints as much as anyone but, using the sky sports link on last season's running stats that @squallman posted (and I presume you've read because you liked his post):


Hardly impressive stuff. Let alone when you realise who that group of 15 contained.

I said he tracks back as much as anyone, meaning attacking players who have to do that. And that he does all the things he's accused of not doing, which he does. Squallman pulled numbers out that you just dismissed because you didn't like them, and then you posted stats from a season where he's constantly been coming back into the lineup and having to play catchup in terms of getting back up to speed. This "debate" isn't being done in good faith so no point continuing. Özil's proven it all already regardless.

 

[truth_hurts]

He's a great player, but it isn't really working out. Think I'd reluctantly sell in the summer.

 

[say yes]

I said he tracks back as much as anyone, meaning attacking players who have to do that. And that he does all the things he's accused of not doing, which he does. Squallman pulled numbers out that you just dismissed because you didn't like them, and then you posted stats from a season where he's constantly been coming back into the lineup and having to play catchup in terms of getting back up to speed. This "debate" isn't being done in good faith so no point continuing. Özil's proven it all already regardless.

What a joke response.

I didn't dismiss any of Squallman's numbers. I pointed out that the conclusions he drew from them (i.e. 'best defensive stats of all our attacking mids') was evidently wrong based on those very numbers. Mkhitaryan and Ramsey both had better stats last season, as highlighted by that article. Which you would have realised if you had actually read the articles like I did rather than blindly liking any post which is mildly positive about poor Mesut.

Squllman's numbers (Opta numbers for last season) are absolutely fine. As are the Opta numbers for the current season. They just don't support any of the arguments you'd like them to, because your arguments regarding Özil are baseless. In fact, Özil's defensive numbers are actually better this season than they were last time which makes your (again, baseless) claim about me having picked stats from a season which hasn't been Özil's best all the more laughable.

All that's happened here is that (once again) you've not substantiated any of your arguments and, when evidence is submitted showing that you're dead wrong on just about every point, you refuse to engage. Much easier to just lick your wounds and claim that this debate isn't being conducted in 'good faith' I guess.

 

[OSBK]

He's a great player, but it isn't really working out. Think I'd reluctantly sell in the summer.

I think he will go. If jose goes to madrid then its nailed on, real need a huge boost and with bale probably leaving then madrid will spend big. Aside from that could look at juve/bayern as the only other sides that he would fit really well into.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

What a joke response.

I didn't dismiss any of Squallman's numbers. I pointed out that the conclusions he drew from them (i.e. 'best defensive stats of all our attacking mids') was evidently wrong based on those very numbers. Mkhitaryan and Ramsey both had better stats last season, as highlighted by that article. Which you would have realised if you had actually read the articles like I did rather than blindly liking any post which is mildly positive about poor Mesut.

Squllman's numbers (Opta numbers for last season) are absolutely fine. As are the Opta numbers for the current season. They just don't support any of the arguments you'd like them to, because your arguments regarding Özil are baseless. In fact, Özil's defensive numbers are actually better this season than they were last time which makes your (again, baseless) claim about me having picked stats from a season which hasn't been Özil's best all the more laughable.

All that's happened here is that (once again) you've not substantiated any of your arguments and, when evidence is submitted showing that you're dead wrong on just about every point, you refuse to engage. Much easier to just lick your wounds and claim that this debate isn't being conducted in 'good faith' I guess.

Sorry man. Sometimes the truth is hard to say yes to.

 

[truth_hurts]

I think he will go. If jose goes to madrid then its nailed on, real need a huge boost and with bale probably leaving then madrid will spend big. Aside from that could look at juve/bayern as the only other sides that he would fit really well into.

Reckon he'd have a multitude of potential suitors as his transfer fee would be low. PSG, Juve and Madrid would probably all have a nibble.

 

[OSBK]

Reckon he'd have a multitude of potential suitors as his transfer fee would be low. PSG, Juve and Madrid would probably all have a nibble.

PSG would be a great move. If PSG keep that core of players he will conduct beautifully there.

 

[say yes]

Sorry man. Sometimes the truth is hard to say yes to.

Would be nice if, as a mod, you tried to set an example and actually have some content in your posts. Optimistic I know but this whole routine you've got of: (1) posting unsubstantiated rubbish; (2) refusing to back it up; (3) leaving the conversation with a one-liner when you're called out, is getting dull.

Might be part of the reason why this forum is infested with trolls.

 

[arsenefc]

PSG would be a great move. If PSG keep that core of players he will conduct beautifully there.

blasphemy. talking in an arsenal forum about him going anywhere.

 

[Jury]

Would be nice if, as a mod, you tried to set an example and actually have some content in your posts. Optimistic I know but this whole routine you've got of: (1) posting unsubstantiated rubbish; (2) refusing to back it up; (3) leaving the conversation with a one-liner when you're called out, is getting dull.

Might be part of the reason why this forum is infested with trolls.

Özil has done this to him. He's done it to a lot of them. It's been sad to witness. They post fine elsewhere but come in this thread, and it's like they've all inhaled something toxic. I hate Özil even more now. He has to go so they can heal.

 

[truth_hurts]

blasphemy. talking in an arsenal forum about him going anywhere.

I think Özil is brilliant, but this is Arsenal fc, not Özil fc. We seem to be building a robust and dynamic team - he doesn't fit that mould.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

Would be nice if, as a mod, you tried to set an example and actually have some content in your posts. Optimistic I know but this whole routine you've got of: (1) posting unsubstantiated rubbish; (2) refusing to back it up; (3) leaving the conversation with a one-liner when you're called out, is getting dull.

Might be part of the reason why this forum is infested with trolls.

Honestly I’m just tired of having the same arguments over and over. No one is getting convinced either way, and I blame myself for taking bait way too often. The stats can be and are interpreted exactly according to everyone’s existing biases, and we’re both reading past each other’s actual points. My comment about bad faith applies to myself as well, and I’m perfectly comfortable with that. I’ve stopped trying to be so objective about football. Seems pointless when no one can even agree on what marker should be used or how they should be analyzed. You’re right about some of those stats not looking great, but none of that is going to change my mind about how Özil has performed to date for us. Why should it when his positive stats are ignored by those who don’t like him?

You can piss off about how you think I should be acting btw. I’m not some emotionless robot.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

Özil has done this to him. He's done it to a lot of them. It's been sad to witness. They post fine elsewhere but come in this thread, and it's like they've all inhaled something toxic. I hate Özil even more now. He has to go so they can heal.

This is exactly how I feel about you two.

 

[Camron]

No don't worry, let me assist you. Here are Opta's defensive stats for the season on our main 6 attacking players (Auba, Laca, Özil, Mkhi, Iwobi, Ramsey). All have over 1000 mins in the league so nice sample size.

Minutes per attempted tackle:
Ramsey - 28.6
Mkhitaryan - 34.1
Lacazette - 37.1
Iwobi - 42.4
Özil - 44.1
Aubameyang - 56

Tackle % rate:
Mkhitaryan - 73.5%
Lacazette - 60.8%
Ramsey - 56.8%
Iwobi - 52.8%
Aubameyang - 52.6%
Özil - 48.1%

Minutes per interception:
Mkhitaryan - 105.5
Lacazette - 126
Iwobi - 138.9
Ramsey - 151.1
Aubameyang - 303.9
Özil - 397

Minutes per (clearances + blocks + interceptions):
Lacazette - 47.3
Iwobi - 69.5
Mkhitaryan - 72.5
Aubameyang - 92.5
Ramsey - 117.6
Özil - 170.1

Minutes per attempted aerial duel:
Lacazette - 17.7
Aubameyang - 23.1
Mkhitaryan - 31.4
Ramsey - 39.2
Iwobi - 72.8
Özil - 119.1

Minutes per attempted ground duel:
Lacazette - 10.6
Mkhitaryan - 11.5
Ramsey - 12.0
Iwobi - 11.9
Özil - 17.0
Aubameyang - 19.5

Tell me that Özil does as much as anyone defensively again?

But if you turn those lists upside down and put your fingers over the numbers for a second Mesut is actually 1st and 2nd.