Philippe Coutinho

[truth_hurts]

The overrating of Buendia on here is something else. He’s a player who if you took the time to watch him, you’d realise was closer to the likes of Kovacic or even our very own Ceballos in style. Watch how Kovacic was deployed at Inter Milan or Real Madrid and you’ll see exactly what I mean. Yes, he has impressive statistics in terms of chances created but let’s contextualise that. He was playing in a team set up to play on the counter who were more often than not toothless when given the opportunity (nod to his lack of goals).

In inviting pressure and being extremely bad at dealing with it, teams opened up against them and were willing to concede chances to them. High profile cases of this were the hime games against Chelsea and Man City where they managed to capitalise on these opportunities but as morale dropped, so did the goals.

They have wasted a lot of opportunities since then, primarily due to horrendous finishing but a considerable amount of these chances have only been created as a result of teams making the conscious decision to open up against them and Buendia, as well as your Cantwell, etc. have inflated stats as a result. For example - I’d back Ceballos to put up similar numbers of assists or chances created if he played in Norwich’s place.

You’ll also see exactly why he won’t provide what we lack. The reason we aren’t linked with him is because we still appear to be in negotiations with Ceballos who plays that middle man role in a midfield three, as does Partey - who I must stress is not the type of defensive midfielder that many seem to want him to be. He’s also the middle man of a midfield three. Similar to to Essien in a lot of ways but a lot more technical and offering more going forward as a result.

I can’t see how Ceballos and/or Partey as well as Busndia go any way to solving our creativity problems.

Completely agree. Buedia could easily be a big fish at a small pond. The few times that I watched Norwich, the standout players were Cantwell, Lewis, Aaron's or even that tricky left winger they have. I only started to notice Buendia after the stats brigade on here kept mentioning him.

He does seem a very tidy player and I like that he has grit. Does he start in our midfield tomorrow? Yes, but I don't see his signing as one that brings us closer to the likes of United and Chelsea, never mind Sp**s and Wolves.

I'd rather get Coutinho as he puts points on the board with his goals and assists. It seems nuts that the Premier Leagues most expensive export (who is in his prime) is being question as to whether he would be worth trying to bring in on a non-committal loan ahead of a young player who has had a good season in an awful tea. Coutinho' worst season here has matched Buendias best and Coutinhos best is pfa team of the year!

 

[truth_hurts]

I like Buendia (and Cantwell) and would happily sign him, but in a shootout between him and Coutinho, there's only one winner.

There is nothing to suggest that we couldn't attempt to buy both though.

 

[TornadoTed]

I'm not keen on Coutinho at all but I can see the logic. I can't see our defence being loads better next season so the obvious way to push for top 4 is to add 12-15 goals in the Premiership.

Hopefully Auba stays and Laca and Pepe score a few more than this season but we need more goals from midfield, Willock has 5, Ceballos and Torreira 2 and Xhaka 1 in all competitions, only 3 goals between them in the Premier League which is shocking.

Partey if he does come isn't going to add goals, Buendia for example looks a really nice tidy player but he scored 1 goal this season and that is a big concern. Coutinho has always scored a few even if a large percentage of his goals are against cannon fodder.

 

[14Henry]

I'm not keen on Coutinho at all but I can see the logic. I can't see our defence being loads better next season so the obvious way to push for top 4 is to add 12-15 goals in the Premiership.

Hopefully Auba stays and Laca and Pepe score a few more than this season but we need more goals from midfield, Willock has 5, Ceballos and Torreira 2 and Xhaka 1 in all competitions, only 3 goals between them in the Premier League which is shocking.

Partey if he does come isn't going to add goals, Buendia for example looks a really nice tidy player but he scored 1 goal this season and that is a big concern. Coutinho has always scored a few even if a large percentage of his goals are against cannon fodder.

It's easier to score in a team that is beating teams 3-0 than getting beat 3-0.

 

[HairSprayGooners]

It's easier to score in a team that is beating teams 3-0 than getting beat 3-0.

But we arent a team that does that. We need someone that scores and assists against low block teams hence why we are after Coutinho.

 

[14Henry]

But we arent a team that does that. We need someone that scores and assists against low block teams hence why we are after Coutinho.

We arent going to agree on this transfer. Going round in circles. You want Coutinho based on 18 months football in one of the best teams in the league ( at the time) I want us to go in a different direction and go down the Leciester route identifying talent before it becomes blatantly obvious.

Buendia moves to Leciester and steps up we are going to be looking back thinking again Arsenal went for the name.

Coutinho didnt fit at Barcelona and gave up. Weak mentality.

Went to Bayern and they dont want anything to do with him.

Why do you think that is? No top team wants him. So now hes looking at another place to make a few quid and stay relevant.

Dont go down the route that no big team needs him. If he is so good every team needs him. Hes finished as a football. Hes walked away from a project and seen it backfire in his face. He may have won titles but those teams would have won without him. Liverpool thrived when he left. Says more than anything.

 

[Kobi]

The overrating of Buendia on here is something else. He’s a player who if you took the time to watch him, you’d realise was closer to the likes of Kovacic or even our very own Ceballos in style. Watch how Kovacic was deployed at Inter Milan or Real Madrid and you’ll see exactly what I mean. Yes, he has impressive statistics in terms of chances created but let’s contextualise that. He was playing in a team set up to play on the counter who were more often than not toothless when given the opportunity (nod to his lack of goals).
.

They are not "set up to play on the counter" they are set up to play possession, they just aren't very good.
Teams set up to play on the counter attack defend deep in numbers with fast players left up to spring counters, they have Teemu Pukki upfront!
They also averaged 50% possession across the whole season which for a newly promoted team on a small budget is very high, in a normal season without these freak teams like City and Liverpool it would obviously be even higher.
Infact this is a quote from Norwich's website about their promotion with the same exact players and system.

Possession and passing

City’s possession-based football has earned lots of plaudits this year and it’s no surprise that they’re near the top in the possession and passing charts.

They probably would have fared better if they set up to counter attack, it's alot easier to do.

 

[wolfkidultman]

They are not "set up to play on the counter" they are set up to play possession, they just aren't very good.
Teams set up to play on the counter attack defend deep in numbers with fast players left up to spring counters, they have Teemu Pukki upfront!
They also averaged 50% possession across the whole season which for a newly promoted team on a small budget is very high, in a normal season without these freak teams like City and Liverpool it would obviously be even higher.
Infact this is a quote from Norwich's website about their promotion with the same exact players and system.



They probably would have fared better if they set up to counter attack, it's alot easier to do.

You’ve described one way of playing on the counter, Norwich play another. Arsenal used to be set up to play on the counter too when we were winning titles. It doesn’t mean that we didn’t look to dominate the ball where possible.

The point remains that a significant amount of Norwich’s attacks are counter attacks.

 

[Camron]

Usual Suspects when Raul does finally set his sights on Buendia:

"Bumdia"

 

[dashsnow17]

I like Buendia (and Cantwell) and would happily sign him, but in a shootout between him and Coutinho, there's only one winner.

There is nothing to suggest that we couldn't attempt to buy both though.

We can't sign Cantwell. I thought we could, but it turns out we can't.

 

[AberGooner]

I disagree. Every signing whether it be on loan or permanent has no guarantees. With Buendia you are getting one of 3 things.

-a player who steps up and proves hes a very good ACM
- He does a job but isnt elite level so you have a decent squad player on moderate wages.
- he doesnt fit and you sell him a year or two later.

The worst case of the above is you've bought him for say 20m and sold him for 10m. You've lost 10m but have had some service out of him.

With Coutinho you pay 15m and who knows.

He could be brilliant but if we fail to get top 4 it hasnt been much use. He walks away next year and goes somewhere better.

He plays to a decent level and maybe we want to buy a 29 year old for say 40m. 2 seasons more out of him before a decline.

The Coutinho signing for me is the one you make if you literally have a really good team but just missing one final thing. Buendia is the signing you make if your building something and want some guarantees that your going to see what he can do over a longer period of time. He is only 23 after all.

Personally if its 15m for Coutinho or 20-22m for Buendia I go Buendia. We look at the business Leicester do and think we should be looking at similar. They take the 15-20m risks on Maddison, Soyuncu, Perrerias, Ndidi and we think a year later. God now those players are good and would cost 50-60m. We should be aiming for similar.

Exactly how I feel about the Coutinho signing and the direction I'd like to see the club going.

The absolute ideal dream is sign the next Maddison, Soyuncu types before anyone else does and hopefully get into a position like Liverpool did with Coutinho, where you can sell 1 of them for a huge amount of money which you can by that point invest in signings to push on for League/European challenges.

As you say Coutinho, great player by the way, but the type of signing a Bayern makes to see if it pushes them over the edge. Obviously he didn't work out for them but not a signing for a rebuilding club I feel.

 

[bingobob]

I wouldnt describe Coutinho as mentally weak. Barcelona have said they dont want him and he could have easily done a Gareth bale or Mesut Özil. Picked up a massive wage to live in a beautiful city.

He opted to go and play. Thats the harder of the options. He wants to play. He wants to be challenged. That's a massive plus.

 

[Sebastes]

The overrating of Buendia on here is something else. He’s a player who if you took the time to watch him, you’d realise was closer to the likes of Kovacic or even our very own Ceballos in style. Watch how Kovacic was deployed at Inter Milan or Real Madrid and you’ll see exactly what I mean. Yes, he has impressive statistics in terms of chances created but let’s contextualise that. He was playing in a team set up to play on the counter who were more often than not toothless when given the opportunity (nod to his lack of goals).

In inviting pressure and being extremely bad at dealing with it, teams opened up against them and were willing to concede chances to them. High profile cases of this were the hime games against Chelsea and Man City where they managed to capitalise on these opportunities but as morale dropped, so did the goals.

They have wasted a lot of opportunities since then, primarily due to horrendous finishing but a considerable amount of these chances have only been created as a result of teams making the conscious decision to open up against them and Buendia, as well as your Cantwell, etc. have inflated stats as a result. For example - I’d back Ceballos to put up similar numbers of assists or chances created if he played in Norwich’s place.

You’ll also see exactly why he won’t provide what we lack. The reason we aren’t linked with him is because we still appear to be in negotiations with Ceballos who plays that middle man role in a midfield three, as does Partey - who I must stress is not the type of defensive midfielder that many seem to want him to be. He’s also the middle man of a midfield three. Similar to to Essien in a lot of ways but a lot more technical and offering more going forward as a result.

I can’t see how Ceballos and/or Partey as well as Busndia go any way to solving our creativity problems.

Partey is not the middle man, he’s usually one of two in a 4-4-2. He takes more defensive responsibility with Saul being more attacking.

But on your points about Buendia. Not sure I agree fully with your reasons for him not being all that, but it might be that he is a big fish in a small pond. However, those players usually don’t top stats charts across Europe.

My biggest concern with him is that he’s far from the first name on the team sheet and have started on the bench from time to time this year. If it’s due to lack of form or for tactical reasons I don’t know, but you’d expect him to be the most important player with those stats. The fact he isn’t make me wonder why.

In the end though he’s met the eye test the few times I’ve seen him and in combination with his stats I think it’s someone you go for at the estimated price.

I don’t think any one player solve our creativity needs alone, whoever he is.

 

[tap-in]

Coutinho on paper will cost a lot less than the alternatives. People should read up on amortization.

Clearing Guendouzis fee and wages off the accounts helps with this as well. It gets even better if there is no fee involved and simply a swap with us taking on a percentage of wages for the season.

It's all about how the accounts work.

By swap do you mean they get Guendouzi permanently or a loan and we get Coutinho for a season?

 

[DanDare]

Cantwell would need a haircut if he was coming here. Guys got Beckham's hair from 2003

 

[wolfkidultman]

Partey is not the middle man, he’s usually one of two in a 4-4-2. He takes more defensive responsibility with Saul being more attacking.

And how do you see that translating to the midfield three that we play?

 

[14Henry]

I wouldnt describe Coutinho as mentally weak. Barcelona have said they dont want him and he could have easily done a Gareth bale or Mesut Özil. Picked up a massive wage to live in a beautiful city.

He opted to go and play. Thats the harder of the options. He wants to play. He wants to be challenged. That's a massive plus.

Could he not have said....I will work harder at Barcelona and make you change your mind? Could he not have made sure everytime he was on the pitch he played so well that it was impossible to drop him.

Theres been many players who weren't fancied and turned it around. Giroud was on his way out of Chelsea in January only they could get another in. He could turn out to be their saviour. Been brilliant in run in and who knows today.

Aguero was dropped by Pep. Was told. You play my way or you are on the bench. He took on board and played the way Pep wanted.

Barcelona arent telling a 120m signing after one year hes not needed unless he isnt doing the business.

 

[Penn_]

Why is Buendia being spoken about in a midfield three when the stats put him as a winger?

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Why is Buendia being spoken about in a midfield three when the stats put him as a winger?

Hes more effective Central I feel. Especially if he was to come here I don't think he'd do enough out wide to justify playing him there. All his best attributes like ball carrying and his final ball I think would be more suited to the centre. Also Norwich play in a weird way where they never seem to have natural wingers, part of the reason why they've done so poorly imo. Lack of width and pace in transition.

 

[14Henry]

Why is Buendia being spoken about in a midfield three when the stats put him as a winger?

If you watch Norwich you will see he isnt a winger. Hes usually floating around the spaces between midfield and striker.

A little bit like Isco at Real. He may pick the ball up wider and then he will be in centre the next minute.