PL: Arsenal vs Everton | 18/10/08

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

If Mourinho had made that tactical change at half time everyone on here would be wetting themselves. Alas, it was that idiot who doesnt know anything about football and is trying to ruin our lives so it mustve been by accident, or something. I'd actually question whether or not he realistically knows who Theo Walcott is.

Seriously though, the constant second guessing of everything Arsène gets right makes this place look really desperate.

Mourinho wouldn't have put himself in that position in the first place - and do you really think that AW would have made the change at half time if it hadn't been for Toure's injury???? I'm struggling to think of times where he's done so of his own volition that early in a game.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

I want the Wenger thread opened again - that was utter tripe from him today - like many others I believe that Touré's injury forced him into making the change, otherwise we'd still be looking for a point out of the game at best with the usual subs at 70 & 80 mins.

If this is as good as he's got for this season, then kick him upstairs as DoF & get a manager who can take care of match days - AW is looking increasingly inept.

Send Wenger upstairs and hire a manager who knows jack s*** about how to develop our players as individuals further? No. Wenger's built the squad and he knows best what they need to learn to be successful. I'll take a skilled, constantly developing side over a team with a manager who makes "good" substitutions. First you need good players, then you might be able to make a good substitution once in a while.

Too often managers get criticized for not making substitutions. People say they just have their fingers on their chin and don't know what to do. A manager who's been in the game for decades and he doesn't know he has substitutes and he can use them!? Do people honestly believe that!?

You know what tactical substitutions are, they're letting players off the hook. It was looking a bit grim, so the player on the field didn't have to dig deep, play through the tough patch and find ways to score. You bring on a substitute who will not "get into the game" and nobody will be accountable for the loss, including the manager who did "all he could".

I want AW as DoF to continue his work with developing the BIG picture, but a football manager to take care of the 1st team - AW can have the rest. Primarily it is because I don't agree with his policies / decisions re the 1st team / senior squad - I don't want our developing players as 1st choice cover for most of our requirements, let alone actually have them as part of the starting XI. Likewise as I've said elsewhere I don't agree in having fringe players sitting at the club unless they are exceptional talents or new to the club - IMO if they are not part of the bench they should be on loan getting 1st team experience in order to compete for starting positions etc the following season.

As for tactical substitutions I disagree that they are letting players off the hook - they let the manager off the hook as often as anything when they get the formation / player positions / roles / match day tactics wrong. Tt's not always the players performing below par, sometimes the manager is asking them to do things they are not capable of, or that simply do not work. If it was about a player not performing up to standard, sub him & drop him - if he doesn't step up then sell him.

I agree that it is a balancing act between persisting to look to push thru' the barriers, and making a change of tactics / players. My criticism of AW in this regard is that he seems to err on the side of caution far too much - he has a conservative approach to match days across the board - from player selection, formations, tactics, substitutions.

While I believe in AW's overall approach to the club, IMO he does not give the team the best opportunities to achieve his own vision. I've had a gut full of the 1st team season being cast to the fates in regard to unproven / developing players. I've had a gut full of AW's compromise solutions, and I've had a gut full of the platitudes & 'BS excuses'.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

wenger didnt want to start theo after the internationals and with a CL match coming up. it would be 4 matches in 10 days for the kid. why cant people understand this?

that said, the obvious thing to do wouldve seemed to be to start eboue at RB, song at CM and denilson at RM. but what do i know - lets stick a guy with no pace and even less stamina at RB. nevermind that he's never played there before (though he played a little LB back in the day in france). giving credit to wenger for the substitution would be giving him credit for realising the blatantly obvious.

Further to that it didn't neccessarily mean that he had to sub someone to address the issue - at any time he could have issued instructions for Song, Denilson & Eboue to change positions. The problems were visible from the opening 5 minutes of the game - why wait to make a change 40 minutes later - we could have been 2 or more down & be shutting the gate after the horse had bolted.

 

[RocktheCasbah]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Sh't first half. It happens.

Great second half.

I don't know why anyone expects to see Eboue play right back for us ever again- Arsène's hardly likely to pick someone who he doesn't believe can defend in a defensive position is he? (Cue Eboue's return to the position on Tuesday).

Whatever Walcott's technical deficiencies, and I don't think they're as big as some are making out- if they are, they don't seem to matter too much, he at least provides a decent target for Cesc's passes. Our attack broke down so much in the first half on Saturday because one man couldn't be bothered to get himself onside.

 

[hackajack]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

I don't know why anyone expects to see Eboue play right back for us ever again- Arsène's hardly likely to pick someone who he doesn't believe can defend in a defensive position is he? (Cue Eboue's return to the position on Tuesday)..

That's only cos Arsène brainwashed him - he first said I'm a fullback not a midfielder (correct Manny). Perhaps he'll give him the reverse treatment before Fener

 

[RocktheCasbah]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

My overall impressions here

 

[asajoseph]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Where were you sat?

What was the booing like around you?

 

[RocktheCasbah]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Green quad, 119, row 15. Above the Everton fans basically.

 

[asajoseph]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Oh, was wondering - I was basically pitchside, right on the edge of the area, but on the other side of the ground. Lots of half-time boos where I was, but plenty of abuse for Neville too.

Was wondering about that ruckus amongst the Everton fans though.

Nice article, btw.

 

[Asterix]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Green quad, 119, row 15. Above the Everton fans basically.

Was that you throwing cups of p*ss on them then?
:wink:

Edit: ah, just read the blog, and it wasn't you...

Good blog, and I agree about Adebayor. Apart from always being pffside, he hardly ever seems to be in the box, and he goes missing for large chunks of the game now too.

If it wasn't for teh physical presence he can bring I'd love to see Vela get a decent run, although perhaps he's more of a Robin replacement. Hmmm.

 

[hackajack]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

I know it isn't easy to get a leak at half time but that's taking it a bit far.

 

[qs]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

My overall impressions here

I thought the booing was for the ref. Surprised you were saying how quiet it was too, I thought it was one of the loudest games I've been to at the Emirates. Maybe it was just the people around me, does 2 blocks make that much difference though, I was in 121.

Hadn't a clue what was going on with those scousers causing a ruckus below, I just wanted our fans to ignore them and watch the game.

The first half was pretty poor but we still created a few chances and at half time I always felt we'd come back into it.

 

[asajoseph]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

I thought the booing was for the ref. Surprised you were saying how quiet it was too, I thought it was one of the loudest games I've been to at the Emirates. Maybe it was just the people around me, does 2 blocks make that much difference though, I was in 121.

Where I was was silent in the first half, really loud in the 2nd.

 

[RocktheCasbah]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Second half was really loud qs, but honestly, never mind library, I thought it was like a graveyard in the first. What happened to buying me a pint, btw? ;-)

 

[qs]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

I'd say there was around 5 minutes of silence in the first half where I was. That was probably down to shock. Everton fans were pretty quiet too I thought. Everytime they made any noise there was a reaction where I was. I did notice when I watch football first though that songs I thought had rang out were barely audible on TV so it must just have been the crowd where I was.

 

[qs]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Second half was really loud qs, but honestly, never mind library, I thought it was like a graveyard in the first. What happened to buying me a pint, btw? ;-)

If I'd known you were there I'd have met you. Thought you were holding off to get United and Spud tickets instead.

 

[Alfonso]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Crowd trouble on Sat:

<a class="postlink" href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Lwnla-KQo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Lwnla-KQo</a>

 

[qs]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

Looks like a hat or something. Wonder what was it.

No way to behave anyway, bad form.

 

[General]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

General,

I have no doubt that statistics have been used, and certainly misused by managers and pundits many, many times over the decades. But, without a proper understanding of what those numbers are telling you, and by default what they're not telling you, they aren't worth much more than the ink and paper they're printed on.

'Passes', and 'successful passes' say absolutely nothing about the quality of these passes, and I'm sure you understand this - this may sound airy-fairy, but you actually need to see those passes with your own eyes to judge this, as no amount of hyper-advanced video technology is ever going to provide empirical data that can make sense of these numbers, and cover every potential nuance. I'd contend that you should go back and look at the games Denilson plays in, observe for yourself. Of course, unless we sit down in a dark room and watch these things together (and even if we did), there's a good chance we'd never agree, but I think that over the course of the season either he'll improve, or these facts will make themselves undeniably apparent.

I'm not saying that Denilson is an awful passer, by any means, or that he NEVER passes the ball forward - as I've said before, I think he's a tidy player with a lot of potential, and is more than capable of getting it right. It's just that, right now, his passing does not show the sort of invention and technique that he seems to be universally credited with.

As for the specifics, yes, he played a role in the second goal, but it was hardly the instrumental role you're making it out to be. He made a decent pass forward, to a player who'd made a good run and was wide open. He did nothing wrong here, but it's hardly the sort of pass that makes up for such shocking defending for the first goal.

Overall, I think people are rightly disappointed with the start Fabregas has made to the season, and are rightly chastising him for it. On the other hand, I think that some people are still willing to overlook all of Denilson's flaws for the excuse that he's young / inexperienced / not used to playing with Cesc, and are happy with the fact that he's managing to put in mostly steady, if wholly unspectacular performances whilst he hasn't done quite enough yet to shatter the preconceptions that were built up 2 years ago when we all got a little over-excited with him. And, for that reason, I hope that he doesn't have to have too many more Fulham / Everton type games to really shatter his confidence before the manager pulls him out of the team for everyone's benefit.

Sadly Asajoseph, when you make comments like “his passing ability is about the biggest myth about going amongst Arsenal fans at the moment. It’s poor”, then its inevitable people will take you to task. Interesting to see that your third paragraph somewhat contradicts your ‘myth assertions’. His passing ability may not be the most desirable, it certainly is no myth. Statistic(s), depending on how you look at it, can either be complex or simple in the fact that they help lay bare factors that do not immediately become obvious whiles watching a game of football. You also do not have to be a boffin to interpret some of the basic data it provides either. Yes, he Denilson has made some poor passes and generally tends to go for the safe route but you can also formulate a compelling argument for a sideways pass that allowed another player to move into space, creating a better attacking opportunity in the process. As you said – the difficulty in attaining a definitive picture to evaluating passing ability means we would be doing him a disservice by suggesting incompetence on his part. A forward pass is not tantamount to an effective pass and observation can only take you so far. The fact is available numbers /accuracy alone should at least put Denilson above the ‘myth threshold’ of passing.

Without prolonging the argument, you would’ve realised within the subtleties of my earlier post that I was in no way advocating his place in the team but giving credit where it is due. The general consensus is that he doesn’t quite measure up to what is required in midfield and quite rightly so. This however does not warrant an outright dismissal of his efforts in the team, particularly his passing ability. Overall, he deserves credit for his performances (goals, assists, passing, tackling et al make him one of the better players in his position in the Premier League) but nevertheless should not be immune to criticism as long as it’s constructive. To Say his passing ability is a myth is certainly not constructive.

When we’ve failed this season, it’s been collective rather than individual albeit the ‘scapegoatists’ insist on creaming themselves with the latter. We must look at the bigger picture.

 

[algunner]

Re: Arsenal vs Everton - Premier League - 18/10/08

The only mistake wenger did was play Song as a right back then Ebue!!! That was not necessary but as for Walcott he was right to rest him or atleast play him 30 min.... But regardless Everton going 1-0 doesn't make the team so bad completely.... because we had chances to get back immediately and missed. Calling for Wenger's head is unecessary ... after all am 100% sure the change despite Kolo's Injury would have been Song for Walcott and we would still be winners at the end. You guys have to remember that even though the team isn't playing to its potential every match, the lost points against Hull, Fulham, Kiev and Sunderland could have been avoided had we taken as much chances as the opponents. It is as simple as that we haven't converted the chances we create as much as the opponent and end up suffering. If I was wenger is to make sure we take the chances we create equally to the opponents and we will be champions.