kel varnsen
Established Member
Kwame said:
for once i agree with you!
toure is a great footballer. he is just a bit "rough". he is a great defender one on one. senderos and toure is, imo, a great partnership.
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for once i agree with you!
toure is a great footballer. he is just a bit "rough". he is a great defender one on one. senderos and toure is, imo, a great partnership.
invisibleman18
Established Member
yeah true about the positional awareness. thing is, this is not so technical in that it does not heavily rely on natural ability whereas things he does have, such as pace and a bit of ball skills do. so this stuff can be taught, it can be learnt with good coaching and experience. it is obvious that he is majorly lacking of it at the moment, but i also wouldn't so far as to write him off by saying he will never have it. it can be learnt.
chachacallis
Well-Known Member
Senderos is young and he will make mistakes its all a prat of the game. with more game he will be a smashing CD.
Monne
Active Member
well we were also lucky that lauren didn't get sent of in the very beginning
it was an absolute disgrace
it was an absolute disgrace
asajoseph
Established Member
I'm not so convinced that positional awareness is something that can be taught. I've played a lot as a central defender, and coached people to do it, and I've seen players who are poor in all other skill areas excel as a central defender, whilst other excellent players fail, just because it's a unique skill that isn't required by any other position on the pitch (although can be useful).
My view is that positional sense for a CB, like all other skills, can be taught to an extent, but requires a huge amount of vision, a quick brain to process the situation, and the speed of thought to ensure that you're in the right place at the right time. I just don't think Kolo has the ability to do this, despite posessing the other skills required to be a good footballer (i.e. pace, technique, strength etc.)
My view is that positional sense for a CB, like all other skills, can be taught to an extent, but requires a huge amount of vision, a quick brain to process the situation, and the speed of thought to ensure that you're in the right place at the right time. I just don't think Kolo has the ability to do this, despite posessing the other skills required to be a good footballer (i.e. pace, technique, strength etc.)
RockyRocastle
Established Member
One of the worst matches I have ever seen yesterday, Boro were terrible and we werent much better.
First half the only guy putting in effort was Reyes. Again he lacked the final ball but at least he was trying to make things happen.
Henry played the game in 2 nd gear. Didnt look like he could be bothered. Every time he got the ball he slowed us down to walking pace.
Senderos played very well but again he is prone to making one or two huge mistakes every game.
First half the only guy putting in effort was Reyes. Again he lacked the final ball but at least he was trying to make things happen.
Henry played the game in 2 nd gear. Didnt look like he could be bothered. Every time he got the ball he slowed us down to walking pace.
Senderos played very well but again he is prone to making one or two huge mistakes every game.
tbbosa
Active Member
We need to thank our two loanees, for the results against our main two rivals.
1. Jermaine Pennant supplied the free kick that led to Walter Pandiani's shock goal for Birmingham. Pennant was Man of the match!!
2. David Bentley delivered a perfectly-flighted free-kick into Ashton's airspace, from which the Norwich goal came.
May be we need these two guys back!!!
1. Jermaine Pennant supplied the free kick that led to Walter Pandiani's shock goal for Birmingham. Pennant was Man of the match!!
2. David Bentley delivered a perfectly-flighted free-kick into Ashton's airspace, from which the Norwich goal came.
May be we need these two guys back!!!
asajoseph
Established Member
I don't know - they seem to be doing a sterling job for us where they are!
sabret00the
Established Member
it's not really easy to reply to this, imo opinion everyone gave away the ball stupidly yesterday and tbh with you our passing game has been lost this season, we've all been seriously sloppy. however the thing is that Senderos bring leadership to our back line along with height and while he's obviously got aspects of his game he needs to REALLY improve, i'd rather him there than any other fit centre back we have at the moment (due to Campbell not playing i'm assuming he's not match fit). his distribution will improve but only with games. where as you see people like henry and vieira give away just as sloppy a ball this late in their careers theirs really no excuse, be patient, it's his first season at such a big club. his biggest attribute right now is presence, he provides us with some Ivan Drago-ness, defenders look at him and get a shudder, they hear whispers of "if he dies, he dies"Zepp said:
sabret00the
Established Member
talking of Wingers, i think Cesc had a terrible game out on the right wing, i think we really need to sort that out, it's quite laughable that our wing depth is what it is.tbbosa said:
sabret00the
Established Member
let's not forget how potential world class he looked when he headered the ball out of his own keepers hands just before half timeKwame said:
this has to of been our worst game of the season
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
tbbosa said:
Not to mention it was Matty Upson who headed Pennant's free kick back for Pandiani...
- Thread starter
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A
Anonymous
Guest
joseph:
I also can't think of a single world class CB who had the level of positional awareness needed to excel at the top level after only one full season playing his position in the top flight.
Nesta and Maldini weren't gifted positional awareness. They learnt it. And Toure is positionally aware, although not where he needs to be. That will come with experience. At this stage, his exuberance is at once one of his greatest advantages and faults. He gets caught out of position because of his bubbling enthusiasm. Failure, experience and maturity will ground his game and his emotion. He"ll become pragmatic. He could become a copy of the old Thuram. And the only other defender I thought was better than Thuram within the past 2 decades was probably Hierro.
I also can't think of a single world class CB who had the level of positional awareness needed to excel at the top level after only one full season playing his position in the top flight.
Nesta and Maldini weren't gifted positional awareness. They learnt it. And Toure is positionally aware, although not where he needs to be. That will come with experience. At this stage, his exuberance is at once one of his greatest advantages and faults. He gets caught out of position because of his bubbling enthusiasm. Failure, experience and maturity will ground his game and his emotion. He"ll become pragmatic. He could become a copy of the old Thuram. And the only other defender I thought was better than Thuram within the past 2 decades was probably Hierro.
asajoseph
Established Member
Kolo is 23, and as far as I know, has not missed any significant part of his career through injury. He's young, but not THAT young.
Compare him to the young Philipe Senderos - he's 20 and has missed majority of the last two years through injury, and evidently is far more positionally aware than Kolo.
John Terry, only a few months older than Kolo is positionally streets ahead.
Experience evidently helps significantly, and that only comes with age, however a certain amount of initial talent is required e.g. vision. I honestly think Kolo lacks the natural vision, and awareness of of play going on around him to play as a CB at the top level, or EVER get to the level of Maldini or Nesta. Kolo has the skills to be a good footballer, but evidently does NOT have the skills to be a good CB, nor are there signs that he might develop this positional awareness over time (as one sees in the likes of Senderos).
Compare him to the young Philipe Senderos - he's 20 and has missed majority of the last two years through injury, and evidently is far more positionally aware than Kolo.
John Terry, only a few months older than Kolo is positionally streets ahead.
Experience evidently helps significantly, and that only comes with age, however a certain amount of initial talent is required e.g. vision. I honestly think Kolo lacks the natural vision, and awareness of of play going on around him to play as a CB at the top level, or EVER get to the level of Maldini or Nesta. Kolo has the skills to be a good footballer, but evidently does NOT have the skills to be a good CB, nor are there signs that he might develop this positional awareness over time (as one sees in the likes of Senderos).
patrick42uk
Established Member
i think its about if you feel a defender can make it when, predominatly, his main attributes are physical. the defender toure reminds me of the most his thuram, because his style involves physically dominating opposition strikers with pace and strength. but then, thuram has his weaknesses. last night, i saw juve fiorentina where thurm was positionally at fault on two set-pieces which led to fiorentina goals. i think its a price you pay when you heavily rely on being physical. the point is though, it hasnt stopped thuram being recognised as one of the top cbs.
i feel also the partnership is important. mobile defenders like thuram and toure and even cavarlho and stam for instance are best paired with defenders who whilst perharps lacking in the mobility department, bring other defensive qualities to the team. particularly in terms of organisation.
it cant be escaped though that positional awareness is important, and i feel this can be taught more so than natural physical qualities. perharps (and i emphasise that word) toure lacks it now, but how long has he played at the top level? he's learning and will improve. many already accept he has proved himself at this level by doing very well for a FULL season in the league. i think its difficult to pass judgement on toure's general level of intelligence because i dont think he gives enough in his interviews for that. he comes across as humble and his background is humble, but that doesnt make you thick. i also agree with kwame that toures' supposed glaring deficiency could be due to his enthusiasm, something which can be curbed with morre experience.
the tag of being positionally aware seems like its being thrown around with ease. how many games as senderos played? and we can decide based on this he is positionally aware? didnt look like it to me watcing france switzerland.
i feel also the partnership is important. mobile defenders like thuram and toure and even cavarlho and stam for instance are best paired with defenders who whilst perharps lacking in the mobility department, bring other defensive qualities to the team. particularly in terms of organisation.
it cant be escaped though that positional awareness is important, and i feel this can be taught more so than natural physical qualities. perharps (and i emphasise that word) toure lacks it now, but how long has he played at the top level? he's learning and will improve. many already accept he has proved himself at this level by doing very well for a FULL season in the league. i think its difficult to pass judgement on toure's general level of intelligence because i dont think he gives enough in his interviews for that. he comes across as humble and his background is humble, but that doesnt make you thick. i also agree with kwame that toures' supposed glaring deficiency could be due to his enthusiasm, something which can be curbed with morre experience.
the tag of being positionally aware seems like its being thrown around with ease. how many games as senderos played? and we can decide based on this he is positionally aware? didnt look like it to me watcing france switzerland.
asajoseph
Established Member
Great post Patrick... A few points though...
I definitely agree 100% partnerships are the key to succesful defending - Kolo defeinitely benefitted from having Sol next to him last season (although I wouldn't say this was the ONLY reason he did well), and has looked far weaker without him this year. As I've said many times before though, I don't know how much longer we can carry a CB that only plays well with one, injury prone partner, before he has to learn to stand up on his own. As good as Sol and Kolo are together, I don't think we can compete at the top level relying so heavily on the fitness of one player.
I guess the only way to find out whether or not Kolo will develop the skills required are to wait and see. I don't think he's going anywhere, so I guess we'll find out soon enough. My feeling is that he won't, although I'd love to be wrong.
I definitely agree 100% partnerships are the key to succesful defending - Kolo defeinitely benefitted from having Sol next to him last season (although I wouldn't say this was the ONLY reason he did well), and has looked far weaker without him this year. As I've said many times before though, I don't know how much longer we can carry a CB that only plays well with one, injury prone partner, before he has to learn to stand up on his own. As good as Sol and Kolo are together, I don't think we can compete at the top level relying so heavily on the fitness of one player.
I guess the only way to find out whether or not Kolo will develop the skills required are to wait and see. I don't think he's going anywhere, so I guess we'll find out soon enough. My feeling is that he won't, although I'd love to be wrong.
I certainly hope you didn't think I was implying that Kolo was thick, just because he wasn't positionally aware. As I've pointed out before, tactical awareness requires a unique set of skills, and I certainly don't believe it correlates to IQ. Vision, decision making and instinct are all important.
KingReyes
Established Member
asajoseph said:
But you have to understand also Asa that John Terry was brought through the ranks as a defender Ever since he joined Chelsea he has learnt everything that needs to be done to become a defender. Also Terry has been a regualr for Chelsea for 3-4 seasons now. Compared to Kolo and thats something else, Kolo has only become a regular CB for one and a half seasons and during his younger days he was put everywhere on the pitch and never one particular position like Terry was during his days through the Chelsea ranks. I feel Kolo has potential, Patrick42Uk has made some good points about Kolo's pace and power which is very good and with the added experience he'll improve his awareness as defender. Kolo's had an up and down season, i agree it seems that he's another player when Sol is on the pitch but he's lost confidence and once he regains that he like any other player will improve his performances.
asajoseph
Established Member
Actually King, I was under the impression that Kolo was a Centre Back for his former club, Asec Mimosas, although I might be wrong. He was moved around in his first season at Arsenal however
Whilst obviously you're not going to learn as much at Asec Mimosas as you are at Arsenal, this would mean that the position is not completely new to him.
On the other hand, if I am wrong, and he wasn't a regular CB at his former club, I STILL don't see how this can be an advantage - teaching a 23 year old, despite his footballing talent, to play in a position that some have been learning for 15 years at least before Kolo even began, to a standard of a player capable of winning the Champions League does seem like a long shot. He certainly has to improve, of that there is no doubt.
Whilst obviously you're not going to learn as much at Asec Mimosas as you are at Arsenal, this would mean that the position is not completely new to him.
On the other hand, if I am wrong, and he wasn't a regular CB at his former club, I STILL don't see how this can be an advantage - teaching a 23 year old, despite his footballing talent, to play in a position that some have been learning for 15 years at least before Kolo even began, to a standard of a player capable of winning the Champions League does seem like a long shot. He certainly has to improve, of that there is no doubt.
