Unai Emery: Adios

[Makingtrax]

A lot of people forget though that defensive organization usually massively helps to iron out individual mistakes. It's literally the point of it. It should minimize the overall danger to your box, minimize the individual weaknesses of players, give them the confidence to play their game and thus decrease the chance of individual mistakes happening. It's really the foundation of any positive or negative way of defending.

That’s very true, but people wrote that stuff about Wenger. And I don’t believe for one minute that both he and Bould weren’tdrilling that defence to try and iron out those errors, but couldn’t.

And now a new manager and defensive coach are doing the same, but the results haven’t changed.

How many more managers before posters see the pattern. We’ve spent our big money we have in attack . . Özil, Sanchez, Auba, Laca etc. The whole of our back line and keeper against Liverpool cost not a lot more than their keeper alone, not mentioning VVD. You get what you pay for.

 

[Makingtrax]

No he's not.

Yes he is. He calmed that team down yesterday and we conceded fewer goals.

 

[Makingtrax]

Kos hasn't been the same player anymore since his injury so far and you could make the case he was already on the decline.

Mustafi has been the most error prone defender we've ever had as a "starter".
He is a player we've offered to WBA and tried to get rid of for Evans

And Kolasinac is a huge downgrade on Nacho on the defensive side.

In our squad we only have Sokratis & Holding who can defend without making a huge mistake/game.
One of them is out for the season.

So there's a serious lack of quality.

Agree with all that but not Sokratis. That rash challenge just outside the box against Sp**s, lead to the Dier goal and yesterday he was rash on numerous occasions. He’s not calm like Kos, he loses his head when things are tough. But he’s probably more skilful than Mustafi.

 

[OnlyOne]

Yes he is. He calmed that team down yesterday and we conceded fewer goals.

Or did we concede less because Mustafi came off? Your example proves nothing.

 

[Jae]

Now that's where we're probably closest in our opinion. I still hold up that organization is the most important aspect of a defense, vastly more important that individual quality, and @celestis has given two good examples, and I highly doubt that Wenger didn't coach defense.

But to properly execute defensive organization and hold the structure 90% of teams/managers need a right hand man on the field. That may be your goalkeeper or one of the CBs, but someone has to organize it. That doesn't have to be the individually best players, or worldclass players, but someone who can see and perceive things, grasp tactical concepts and hold it together on the field. The last guy we had who could do that was Mertesacker.

Fair does buddy! Wouldn't argue with that.

 

[Makingtrax]

Or did we concede less because Mustafi came off? Your example proves nothing.

I’ve watched Kos for years and he’s super calm when the play gets hot. He may not be the level of VVD, and he is on the wane, but over a season he’ll still make fewer errors than Mustafi. And for me the jury’s out on Sokratis, I thought he was quite good to start with but he’s starting show he’s also rash.
All teams are good in the EPL as Sp**s found out, games are tight, small things make the difference . . rash defenders will cost you.

 

[Godwin1]

That’s very true, but people wrote that stuff about Wenger. And I don’t believe for one minute that both he and Bould weren’tdrilling that defence to try and iron out those errors, but couldn’t.

And now a new manager and defensive coach are doing the same, but the results haven’t changed.

How many more managers before posters see the pattern. We’ve spent our big money we have in attack . . Özil, Sanchez, Auba, Laca etc. The whole of our back line and keeper against Liverpool cost not a lot more than their keeper alone, not mentioning VVD. You get what you pay for.

I don't think you're going against the grain by saying better defenders equal a better defense mate, not sure who's going to deny that. Don't think you can dismiss the managers influence as much as you're going for though, plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest Wenger's defensive work wasn't as intense as it could have been or compared with others etc. I think Emery himself said we'd lost our defensive structure before he joined, which is clearly still a work in progress

 

[OnlyOne]

I’ve watched Kos for years and he’s super calm when the play gets hot. He may not be the level of VVD, and he is on the wane, but over a season he’ll still make fewer errors than Mustafi. And for me the jury’s out on Sokratis, I thought he was quite good to start with but he’s starting show he’s also rash.
All teams are good in the EPL as Sp**s found out, games are tight, small things make the difference . . rash defenders will cost you.

I just don't understand how you think Kos is better, might be calmer but he's just not very good anymore. We need a new CB partner for Sokratis not Kos.

 

[Makingtrax]

I don't think you're going against the grain by saying better defenders equal a better defense mate, not sure who's going to deny that. Don't think you can dismiss the managers influence as much as you're going for though, plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest Wenger's defensive work wasn't as intense as it could have been or compared with others etc. I think Emery himself said we'd lost our defensive structure before he joined, which is clearly still a work in progress

Lich, Sokratis, Leno, Torreira never played under Wenger. Kola for only a very short time. The defensive performance yesterday wasn’t about Emery trying to rectify previous seasons defensive frailties.

 

[celestis]

Why are people acting like Kos was class before his injury though. He's really not that good.

Why are you calling me "people" ?

 

[OnlyOne]

Why are you calling me "people" ?

Wasn't directly at you, just seen more than one person rate Kos far too highly.

 

[isop]

I can acknowledge that there are individual errors leading to goals, but i'm not comfortable with the defensive structure. Teams are allowed to bypass the midfield too easily, and the back four is not well coordinated as a group, the team don' t defend well as a team, which can sometimes make up for personel problems. As I said some players can be improved upon, but even with impovements imo there is a system problem.

A shaky, weak, uncertain structure can actually make players more nervous and lead to errors, whilst a stable, strong, well-drilled one can increase confidence and minmize errors.

Remembering those terrible stats I mentioned earlier, we can do better with what we have right now. For example, a top 6 team that is 14th in the league in shots allowed on goal looks like a system/structure problem to me not just individual errors. These players were good enough to finish in the top 6 but they can be outperformed by teams below them on some elements of defending. We're not fighting relegation, we're a top 6 team. Our current squad can be better defensively with the right coaching, before making transfers.

 

[Godwin1]

Lich, Sokratis, Leno, Torreira never played under Wenger. Kola for only a very short time. The defensive performance yesterday wasn’t about Emery trying to rectify previous seasons defensive frailties.

Not sure what you mean mate, he's bought some players in and one of his statements was he wanted to improve upon our defensive structure.

 

[Preacher]

Should be mentioned, that Sokratis, Lichsteiner and Leno deals were agreed before Emery was signed to be new coach.

 

[Makingtrax]

I can acknowledge that there are individual errors leading to goals, but i'm not comfortable with the defensive structure. Teams are allowed to bypass the midfield too easily, and the back four is not well coordinated as a group, the team don' t defend well as a team, which can sometimes make up for personel problems. As I said some players can be improved upon, but even with impovements imo there is a system problem.

A shaky, weak, uncertain structure can actually make players more nervous and lead to errors, whilst a stable, strong, well-drilled one can increase confidence and minmize errors.

Remembering those terrible stats I mentioned earlier, we can do better with what we have right now. For example, a top 6 team that is 14th in the league in shots allowed on goal looks like a system/structure problem to me not just individual errors. These players were good enough to finish in the top 6 but they can be outperformed by teams below them on some elements of defending. We're not fighting relegation, we're a top 6 team. Our current squad can be better defensively with the right coaching, before making transfers.

Been having this argument on here for years. Is it coaching or quality of players. And the same thing is happening with Emery already.

There are a number of pointers why I believe it’s not coaching.

• Wenger had some the best EPL defensive stats in some seasons, most recent being 2015/16
• Arsenal have always performed over it’s squad cost position from 2005 right up to 2016/17 and won the FA cup 7 times.
• Emery is still performing to his squad cost of 5th.

None of these would be true if they were suspect coaches, whatever people think they see. Klopp finished 4 places below his squad cost place in his first season, and he’s still a good coach.

 

[teamsoutheast]

I can acknowledge that there are individual errors leading to goals, but i'm not comfortable with the defensive structure. Teams are allowed to bypass the midfield too easily, and the back four is not well coordinated as a group, the team don' t defend well as a team, which can sometimes make up for personel problems. As I said some players can be improved upon, but even with impovements imo there is a system problem.

A shaky, weak, uncertain structure can actually make players more nervous and lead to errors, whilst a stable, strong, well-drilled one can increase confidence and minmize errors.

Remembering those terrible stats I mentioned earlier, we can do better with what we have right now. For example, a top 6 team that is 14th in the league in shots allowed on goal looks like a system/structure problem to me not just individual errors. These players were good enough to finish in the top 6 but they can be outperformed by teams below them on some elements of defending. We're not fighting relegation, we're a top 6 team. Our current squad can be better defensively with the right coaching, before making transfers.

Best post i've seen today. It's too easy to just throw money at the situation. We just do not defend properly from front to back. Look how hard City and Liverpool work off the ball when they lose it! Look how organised Brighton and Wolves look with arguably inferior defenders. It all comes down to defensive cohesion and orgsanisation which we will be working on under Emery. He knows there is a defensive problem hence the change to 3 at the back to add some stability. We now need to find that balance in midfield so the ball is being won before it gets to the defensive line. This will all change over time.

 

[isop]

Been having this argument on here for years. Is it coaching or quality of players. And the same thing is happening with Emery already.


There are a number of pointers why I believe it’s not coaching.

• Wenger had some the best EPL defensive stats in some seasons, most recent being 2015/16
• Arsenal have always performed over it’s squad cost position from 2005 right up to 2016/17 and won the FA cup 7 times.
• Emery is still performing to his squad cost of 5th.

None of these would be true if they were suspect coaches, whatever people think they see. Klopp finished 4 places below his squad cost place in his first season, and he’s still a good coach.

I also remember those seasons recently where we actually had something like the 2nd best defensive record in the league, it was a combination of decent coaching and some quality (kos, mertesacker, monreal, cech, coquelin etc.). Credit where credit is due to Wenger and the coaching staff. I think Steve Bould’s initial influence was also pronounced, but there were rumours that he was given less control as time went on, and in the last 2 seasons at least we were poor defensively.

It's a combination of both but imo the coaching is the most important. You can see small teams that are well organized defensively sometimes working wonders with their weaker players. For the most part we obviously have better players than Brighton, Palace and Newcastle but are conceding more goals than them.

He has tried doing that though by going back to 3 at the back? He knows that we have shipped goals in way too easily hence why he tried to bring more stability in defence playing with 3CB. Unfortunately, this means we lose a little bit of control in midfield. I wonder if he is willing to try a 3-5-2 to see if it brings a little more balance to our game.

I would like him to try 3-5-2 for some more midfield control and to play Laca and Auba together. But it also goes beyond formation, not convinced about his defensive setup yet whatever formation we have tried tbh.

It's too easy to just throw money at the situation. We just do not defend properly from front to back... Look how organised Brighton and Wolves look with arguably inferior defenders.

That overall team shape and teamwork is what I’m still looking for before we start spending some more. He needs to really improve with what he’s got at the moment, we can’t just rely on transfers. Smaller teams are finding a way to do it, he needs to do likewise.

 

[Toby]

That’s very true, but people wrote that stuff about Wenger. And I don’t believe for one minute that both he and Bould weren’tdrilling that defence to try and iron out those errors, but couldn’t.

And now a new manager and defensive coach are doing the same, but the results haven’t changed.

How many more managers before posters see the pattern. We’ve spent our big money we have in attack . . Özil, Sanchez, Auba, Laca etc. The whole of our back line and keeper against Liverpool cost not a lot more than their keeper alone, not mentioning VVD. You get what you pay for.

I'm with you on the Wenger stuff, just wrote it in my other answer. Highly doubt he didn't work on the defense. But the problem still seems to me more complex than just the personnel. More than just general quality I feel it's about qualities.

Wenger seemed a bit outdated in his defensive concepts against modern, aggressive pressing sides in his last years, and Emery does also seem to struggle giving the defense/team a solid structure.

But a main part certainly lies in the profiles acquired. While contest that Sokratis and Mustafi lack the general quality to play a good role at Arsenal or be part of a structured defense, they're basically Kos Mk 2 and Kos Mk 3, while after Mertesacker we should have brought in an organizer of his ilk.

So we're not neccesarilly too bad in terms of general quality, but lack a CB who has certain qualities or traits which would make it easier to implement a defensive structure and hold that throughout a game.

So I think it's a mix of wrong players and wrong tactics to get fully competent. So I certainly admit there's quality problems but still Emery has to do better. For all the shortcomings there's enough to do better than get the worst defensive record since I don't know when. Right now things look so shambolic, too shambolic, for me to just say "ok get a better CB". With what we have it has to be better. We're not talking about our defense looking generally solid and being the 5th or 6th worst/best just behind Top 4, so all we need is some more quality. The defense right now is one of the worst in the league and while there are underlying quality issues, with what we have the defense plain and simple has to be better by way of organization.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Some of the defending was absolutely amateur stuff, I mean I'm not sure how Emery can legislate for us conceding the goals we did. Maybe the 3rd goal was a coaching issue but the first two were just beyond stupid. Failing to clear the ball, two poor tackles from our CBs for the second. Then the penalties, one was harsh but Sokratis was still clumsy while Kolasinac was absolutely ****ing moronic for the 2nd pen.

I honestly thought the first half was going pretty well but we seriously shot ourselves in the foot.

Liverpool had the quality and punished us. If anything the result yesterday might be a positive and may force us to make some moves in January.

 

[Preacher]

Spot 10 differences between 17/18 and 18/19.