Arsenal v West Ham. EPL Sat Jan 31st 2009 15:00

[stiiphunn]

1. Just saying a player is 'sh*t' doesnt cut it for me. Neither does coming out with bullshit statistics. Neither does does that 'passenger' argument - if that makes any sense then why did no one boo Vela?

2. Even if i was convinced that Eboue was as sh*t as everyone makes out, it would still go nowhere near justifying booing him. The fact that you thought you could do so shows how clueless you really are.

Agree with this, Eboue tried a few good things today, and as I say was certainly not the worst of them. The cowards who booed him, but not St Carlos' pathetic dive speak volumes about the brain power of the mob. It's only in here when the anger and emotion subsides that we can calmly discuss and apportion blame for this latest fiasco.

People are completly brainwashed and don't even watch the game anymore - they got their lines ready and just copy/paste. I mean some comments that were made during the game were hilarious, especially those concerning Eboue and Vela.

 

[ricky1985]

Who said we have changed to two defensively minded 'box-to-box' midfielders?

Do you honestly think Wenger believes you can get away with playing, by your own admission, two defensive midfielders whose job is nothing more than 'to harry, and keep the ball moving', when you have Emanuel Eboue on the right wing, who Wenger believes provides the team with defensive solidity?

It doesn't add up mate. Wenger expects his midfielders to move beyond the ball, pass accurately, consistently and incisively. All this can be multiplied by a factor of 10 when facing a team with no intent whasoever of attacking, and with a 9 man brick wall.

Forget the football terminology - defensive box-to-box, attacking box-to-box, it doesn't really mean anything. Wenger expects certain tasks to be carried out by his central midfielders in any system we play. One of the prerequisites of a Wenger central midfielder is accurate forward passing, neither Diaby or Denilson have this capability. If Cesc's next to them, perhaps they can get away with it, but when they are paired together it kills a huge percentage of our creative ability.

You can see from their positioning, that neither are specifically playing as the attacking, or defensive midfielder. They are both playing side by side as defensive minded box-to-box midfielders, which is also apparent by how rarely they run forward, and how they both are close to the ball, when the opposition break.

Eboue is playing due to the lack of options we have at RM. Theo Walcott is injured, and Jack Wilshere is too young. Other than the Ivorian, who else is left?

Yes, he does expect that, but that is where Nasri, Ade and Vela failed. Diaby and Denilson bear some of the responsibility, but they are not the key like Fabregas is. Circumstances change everything, and we no longer have a playmaker in CM. We have 2 players who have a very different skillset, and we have to alter our system in order to acommodate them. Diaby and Denilson don't play like Cesc, so why expect them to? Frankly, you don't, therefore you change the system, whereby you don't rely on them to create. Those two players clearly don't play as advanced as Cesc, or dictate like him, because they are not that type of player.

Your confusing Cesc, with the rest of the CM's that have played for us in recent years. Cesc is an anomaly, he is the only creative CM we've ever had in our team, therefore we a have system that allows him to move up the field and dictate. In his absence, we have never deployed CM's in the same manner. Diarra, Gilberto, Flamini, Ramsey, Denilson, Diaby, Song, have all played as a dual defensive box-to-box midfielders in the Spaniard's absence.

Wenger hasn't said to Denilson and Diaby; 'ok guys you're defensive box-to-box midfielders today, so you sit deep, chase and harry, and pass the ball sideways'.
Wenger wants them to spot early forward passes, and release the ball quickly and accurately, trying to find Adebayor, Van Persie, Nasri, Bendtner, Vela etc. In space, in promising positions higher up the pitch.
He also wants them once they have succesfully played that pass to move intelligently up the pitch to give the recipient of the pass another passing option, or to recieve the ball later in the attack.

That is what is required of a central midfielder in the system we play. Fabregas is the master of spotting the right pass, releasing accurately and early, moving our point of attack further up the pitch, and then moving forward with intelligence. Flamini was also very good at this, and since we have implemented this current system (2006) it's only really Gilberto who has played centre midfielder regularly for us (along with the aforementioned two), and he was by no means a master of passing and moving forward, but he was exceptional at enabling Fabregas to do this.

Lets break down yesterday, we faced a team who had little to no attacking intent whatsoever. They strung a line of 4 defenders, and then 5 midfielders across the pitch, positioned on the edge of their box, and then left Carlton Cole up front to fight a lone battle. 75% of the games we play in the Premier League follow this pattern.

So how, and from where, do we create goalscoring opportunities?

You're criticising Nasri, Vela, Bendtner, and Adebayor for their movement, but if a team is camped as deep as West Ham were, where do you move? You can't run in behind, there's no space. You recieve the ball to feet and you'll probably have one of the 5 midfielders pressurising you, as well as one of the defenders.
The only chance you have of creating something (if you're incapable of all things crossing) is by midfield runners influencing the attack. When they move beyond the ball they force the opposition midfielders to make a choice; do I track them and risk leaving space for others to exploit, or do I leave him to one of the defenders to track, and risk him slipping through the lines unnoticed?

Denilson and Diaby never took that risk, never moved beyond the ball, never gave Parker, Noble, Collison that problem.

So the outcome is all too predictable. Denilson and Diaby play the easy pass 99 times out of 100, they stand there watching as Nasri, Bendtner, Adebayor, Eboue, Van persie, Vela, recieve said pass surrounded by 2 sometimes even 3 players, until the ball eventually comes back to them, and then the situation repeats itself. It happens in nearly all our games.

For me it's the primary reason why we have bombed this season compared to last. We haven't had centre midfielders who transition our attack, and move and pass forward intelligently. Even when Fabregas was in the team, Denilson wasn't doing what Gilberto used to do, and that was enabling Fabregas to succesfully carry out those aformentioned tasks. It certainly doesn't help having Emanuel Eboue on the right wing, or a sometimes stupidly static Adebayor up front, so our problems go deeper than just Denilson (or the position next to Fabregas), but it is a huge reason for our poor results and poor football.

 

[Proof]

“We are not far away but now we have a bit of time now the game is over until Tuesday night. Monday night is the deadline so we’ll see what can be done in 24 hours. With the experience I have, anything can happen in a transfer.”

How much experience it takes to know that anything can happen?

Seriously, recently it seems that Wenger has the same speech when it comes to talk about transfers, title hopes and team's form. I don't want him to come and say that we are hopeless, but with this kind of statements even my weak intelligence feels insulted.

 

[AxlGunners]

Is there any news on the injuries sustained yesterday?

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

of course i am, as we try to play the same way with diaby and denilson in central midfield as we did with cesc and flamini there. in the context of possession based football, which is exactly what wenger wants at the moment, then that is the basis of the discussion. furthermore, that means diaby and denilson failed today. again. as usual.

We do play the same way, but the roles of the CM's slightly differ from that of Fabregas-Flamini. Neither Diaby or Denilson play the role of the dictator, because they aren't advanced enough on the field, nor do they have the skills for it. Due to circumstances, we no longer have a creative player in CM, therefore, we've had to change our setup in order to compliment the current personel.

and that is my point, vis-a-vis this discussion. diaby and denilson simply lack the abilities to execute the tasks handed to them. now, i think they are s***e regardless of context. useless footballers, not capable of really anything useful. what the hell does either of them really offer tbh? i challenge anyone to come up with a half decent answer that i can't crush and refute in 30 seconds...

Kel sometims you are so full of sh*. What you are suggesting can be done to almost 98% of CMs playing in the EPL, including the top teams. In that "football world" of yours what do you deem as "useful"?

 

[sabret00the]

anyone else find is hilarious that wenger took a game that was supposed to be about real football and only sent out workman?

 

[outlaw_member]

Wenger hasn't said to Denilson and Diaby; 'ok guys you're defensive box-to-box midfielders today, so you sit deep, chase and harry, and pass the ball sideways'.

Wenger wants them to spot early forward passes, and release the ball quickly and accurately, trying to find Adebayor, Van Persie, Nasri, Bendtner, Vela etc. In space, in promising positions higher up the pitch.
He also wants them once they have succesfully played that pass to move intelligently up the pitch to give the recipient of the pass another passing option, or to recieve the ball later in the attack.

That is what is required of a central midfielder in the system we play. Fabregas is the master of spotting the right pass, releasing accurately and early, moving our point of attack further up the pitch, and then moving forward with intelligence. Flamini was also very good at this, and since we have implemented this current system (2006) it's only really Gilberto who has played centre midfielder regularly for us (along with the aforementioned two), and he was by no means a master of passing and moving forward, but he was exceptional at enabling Fabregas to do this.

Lets break down yesterday, we faced a team who had little to no attacking intent whatsoever. They strung a line of 4 defenders, and then 5 midfielders across the pitch, positioned on the edge of their box, and then left Carlton Cole up front to fight a lone battle. 75% of the games we play in the Premier League follow this pattern.

So how, and from where, do we create goalscoring opportunities?

You're criticising Nasri, Vela, Bendtner, and Adebayor for their movement, but if a team is camped as deep as West Ham were, where do you move? You can't run in behind, there's no space. You recieve the ball to feet and you'll probably have one of the 5 midfielders pressurising you, as well as one of the defenders.
The only chance you have of creating something (if you're incapable of all things crossing) is by midfield runners influencing the attack. When they move beyond the ball they force the opposition midfielders to make a choice; do I track them and risk leaving space for others to exploit, or do I leave him to one of the defenders to track, and risk him slipping through the lines unnoticed?

Denilson and Diaby never took that risk, never moved beyond the ball, never gave Parker, Noble, Collison that problem.

So the outcome is all too predictable. Denilson and Diaby play the easy pass 99 times out of 100, they stand there watching as Nasri, Bendtner, Adebayor, Eboue, Van persie, Vela, recieve said pass surrounded by 2 sometimes even 3 players, until the ball eventually comes back to them, and then the situation repeats itself. It happens in nearly all our games.

For me it's the primary reason why we have bombed this season compared to last. We haven't had centre midfielders who transition our attack, and move and pass forward intelligently. Even when Fabregas was in the team, Denilson wasn't doing what Gilberto used to do, and that was enabling Fabregas to succesfully carry out those aformentioned tasks. It certainly doesn't help having Emanuel Eboue on the right wing, or a sometimes stupidly static Adebayor up front, so our problems go deeper than just Denilson (or the position next to Fabregas), but it is a huge reason for our poor results and poor football.

Your asking me questions that only Wenger has the answers to. I have no idea, WHY he has played the system, in the manner that he has. Although, you cannot ignore that injuries meant a change in setup. Why has it been changed into the manner that it has? Well you'll have to ask Wenger. All I'll say, is that your asking Diaby and Denilson to play as a creative CM. Unfortunately, they aren't that type of player. Our inability to break down West Ham yesterday, was no different from the 100 other ocassions, when Cesc-Hleb and co. couldn't penetrate themselves. This inability, is by no means confined to yesterdays team.

 

[kel varnsen]

Our inability to break down West Ham yesterday, was no different from the 100 other ocassions, when Cesc-Hleb and co. couldn't penetrate themselves. This inability, is by no means confined to yesterdays team.

it is very different. first of all, we were never this bad with cesc, flamini and hleb in midfield. yesterday, we created 3 decent goal chances. at home. to everton. furthermore, the chances we create are random. not, usually, from open play. sure, we saw similar results with said midfield trio, but never the same low level performance.

secondly, it's not just the everton match. it's just about every match since cesc got injured. we look lost and clueless with denilson, diaby and song in central midfield. no structure, no plan and no execution.

 

[qs]

I thought yesterday in the second half was as good as we've played since Cesc was injured.

 

[Classy_Gunner]

Excactly .We played some lovely football but we couldnt finish off the chances in which Arsenal becoming well known for .Our midfield yesterday had the creativity and they played well be the execution of the finishing was poor .What i really mean is that we produced great football until the final pass (final third).But we all know that Arshavin does pretty exceptional in the final third of the pitch and that is when players like Eduardo comes back and we all know what a brilliant finisher he is .

 

[outlaw_member]

it is very different. first of all, we were never this bad with cesc, flamini and hleb in midfield. yesterday, we created 3 decent goal chances. at home. to everton. furthermore, the chances we create are random. not, usually, from open play. sure, we saw similar results with said midfield trio, but never the same low level performance.

secondly, it's not just the everton match. it's just about every match since cesc got injured. we look lost and clueless with denilson, diaby and song in central midfield. no structure, no plan and no execution.

Relative to our previous lineup, we are obviously less likely to break through. That is to be expected, seeing how many injuries we currently have. However, it's a general problem that has been apparent for a few years now.

 

[General]

People are completly brainwashed and don't even watch the game anymore - they got their lines ready and just copy/paste. I mean some comments that were made during the game were hilarious, especially those concerning Eboue and Vela.

What was even more shocking was the fact that Eboue was one of the better performers in the opening minutes. Then came the gasps and hisses from the crowd and he descended once again to the point of no return.

Our inability to break down West Ham yesterday, was no different from the 100 other ocassions, when Cesc-Hleb and co. couldn't penetrate themselves. This inability, is by no means confined to yesterdays team.

QFT! I remember Boro last season when Hleb had the chance to win it for us and totally ****ed up. We booed Mark Halsey in the end but we all know it was frustration borne out of our inability to break down the opposition. I fail to see how much difference Hleb would've made yesterday considering he isn't exactly prolific. We created enough chances to win the game and what we needed was someone to stick the ball in the back of the net NOT another Shimmy MacNoscore.

Wenger is the biggest culprit. I mean WTF is he keeping RvP nice and safe and snug and warm for :?: I struggle to comprehend his logic.

To be fair Biggus, maybe in hindsight, he should started him and subbed him early but in his own admission, Robin was on the brink and judging by his previous history of injuries, this was a fair call. I'm guessing he would've taken advice from the fitness coaches too.

 

[DOUBLE-YOU]

anyone else find is hilarious that wenger took a game that was supposed to be about real football and only sent out workman?

????

other than Van Persie (who eventually came on) what other options did we have?

 

[DOUBLE-YOU]

it is very different. first of all, we were never this bad with cesc, flamini and hleb in midfield. yesterday, we created 3 decent goal chances. at home. to everton. furthermore, the chances we create are random. not, usually, from open play. sure, we saw similar results with said midfield trio, but never the same low level performance.

secondly, it's not just the everton match. it's just about every match since cesc got injured. we look lost and clueless with denilson, diaby and song in central midfield. no structure, no plan and no execution.

1 - yes we have. furthermore we have been this bad when we had bergkamp, henry and pires in the same side.

2 - not true. the second half against liverpool, the hull game and against villa we played well and created chance. we also created a number of opportunities against bolton, which we couldn't put away. ok so it's not wengerball, but the invincibles didn't always play wengerball.

i find it funny you feel we are so bad since cesc has been out, but wasn't everyone saying cesc had been playing poorly this season.
then i ask, how creative are chelsea without lampard or liverpool without gerrard. even with these players both teams have struggled of late.

 

[JGooner]

The booing isn't surprising and will, I assure you, get much worse. It is unsustainable to have such a huge gap between the ambitions of the fans and those of the manager/board.

The fact that our performance today was (by our standards) pretty good and we still failed to create more than two or three proper chances, at home against a mediocre side, underlines the reality that the quality just isn't there. Denilson-Diaby-Song are the worst midfielders this club has seen since the Jensen-Morrow-Selley days. The fact that a player as ordinary as Adebayor is on such a huge contract on the basis of one good season makes our claims to fiscal discipline look hollow. Eboue is a sick joke of a footballer, though it's true that his career has basically been vandalised by being forced to play outside his natural RB position.

And all of this, which is itself frustrating to fans, is then compounded by the garbage we have to hear from Wenger - the deluded fantasies about his squad's potential, the endless sour-faced whining about not getting enough credit for hovering around 4th place while playing football of deteriorating quality and turning a profit.

I keep saying it, but the level of frustratiom among fans at the ground is palpable and growing. It is a state of affairs that is simply not sustainable indefinitely.

your statement is so funny. jensen - morrow - selley days huh? there is one other player you left out...ray parlour. yes the legend we call the romford pele was part of that midfield and he was awful. no. really awful. it's funny how people remember what they want. if any of you went to arsenal games at the time, you would remember selley was actual a better player.
i know we can't live on excuses but please give these players time to develop. admittedly i am not a fan of song, but with denilson and diaby you can see with time they will develop into good players. i remember paul davis went through the same thing with the fans. once we decide we don't like a player then that's it. they are always ****no matter how well they perform. it's a poor attitude to take.
before last season flamini was also a boo boy, now we miss him more than anything. for the sake of the club, give these players a chance. you can see they have no confidence playing at home, because those who only started watching arsenal after 2004 give them a hard time.

Firstly, if you think I'm one of those fans who have only watched Arsenal since 2004, please keep quiet. I was scraping money to watch them when I was 12, supported them from the age of six and now go to every home game, bar none. I basically live on my overdraft for the rest of the year in order to continue renewing my season ticket.

Secondly, the first para of your post does not even make sense on its own terms. The fact that Parlour was in that mid-90s midfield does not make the other three players I mentioned any worse than they were. How could it? The logic escapes me. Also, Parlour himself didn't become any good at all until he sorted out his life in the 1995/96 season, by which time neither Jensen nor Selley nor Morrow featured in the team anymore, so you're not even really correct to say that the high-quality Parlour we remember did belong to that otherwise dire midfield. Also, I do remember Selley and he was crap. And none of this even deals with my basic point, which is that Denilson-Diaby-Song are the worst we've seen since then.

Finally, how long do you want us to continue giving these guys "a chance". We're in the fourth season of this endless rebuilding project. I'd have more time more your argument if you actually had a cut-off point for your patience instead of just imploring everyone to wait until some indistinct time in the future when the likes of Denilson turn out to be, in your own words, "good".

 

[DOUBLE-YOU]

Firstly, if you think I'm one of those fans who have only watched Arsenal since 2004, please keep quiet. I was scraping money to watch them when I was 12, supported them from the age of six and now go to every home game, bar none. I basically live on my overdraft for the rest of the year in order to continue renewing my season ticket.

Secondly, the first para of your post does not even make sense on its own terms. The fact that Parlour was in that mid-90s midfield does not make the other three players I mentioned any worse than they were. How could it? The logic escapes me. Also, Parlour himself didn't become any good at all until he sorted out his life in the 1995/96 season, by which time neither Jensen nor Selley nor Morrow featured in the team anymore, so you're not even really correct to say that the high-quality Parlour we remember did belong to that otherwise dire midfield. Also, I do remember Selley and he was crap. And none of this even deals with my basic point, which is that Denilson-Diaby-Song are the worst we've seen since then.

Finally, how long do you want us to continue giving these guys "a chance". We're in the fourth season of this endless rebuilding project. I'd have more time more your argument if you actually had a cut-off point for your patience instead of just imploring everyone to wait until some indistinct time in the future when the likes of Denilson turn out to be, in your own words, "good".

jg i didn't say you only started supporting arsenal after 2004, but you must admit, there a number of bandwagon jumpers, who watched highlights in 2004 and think aresenal blew every opponent away with mesmerising football every game.

2. i mentioned parlour because until wenger arrived he was a really poor player, and i thought it was strange you didn't mention him, but you mentioned the other players he played with. in saying that he did however develope. selley had much more to his game. he was a combatative player who could pass well, similar to nicky butt. he didn't fulfill his potential, but he had a lot of ability.

3. our center midfield of 2002 wasn't that much better. Now before you go crazy i put it to you like this. you mentioned diaby denilson and song and omitted cesc. so if you omit vieira we had grimandi, van bronckhurst and edu (who was not as effective in his first season mainly due to injury). there is very little difference in quality, only the players around them were much better. saying diaby, denilson and song are rubbish is just ridiculous. i am not a song fan (i think he is the worse of the 3), but when he went to charlton 2 seasons ago he stood out every game.

4. no offense mate, i really don't care about your hard knock life financial story.

 

[Cruisio]

Its comments like this that just strengthen my beleif that the Eboue boo-ers are a bunch of f*cking knobjockeys.

1. Just saying a player is 'sh*t' doesnt cut it for me. Neither does coming out with bullshit statistics. Neither does does that 'passenger' argument - if that makes any sense then why did no one boo Vela?

2. Even if i was convinced that Eboue was as sh*t as everyone makes out, it would still go nowhere near justifying booing him. The fact that you thought you could do so shows how clueless you really are.

I'm sorry but at which point did I say that I booed him? I've never booed Eboue, not at the Wigan game or the game yesterday. I'm explaining to you where that boo comes from, and its a frustration at his lack of effort. His lack of ability I think most people can forgive, because its not his fault he's playing where he's playing, but its his seeming lack of heart and determination that rubs people up the wrong way. I'm not going to go into every instance where I feel Eboue has showed his lack of drive because thats not the point i'm trying to make here, im trying to say that ok, if you think people that boo Eboue are knobjockeys then thats up to you, but atleast be open to the idea as to why someone MIGHT boo him. The reason why Vela didnt get booed is because firstly, he hasnt had nearly as many opportunities as Eboue has to establish himself and secondly, atleast he looked up for the fight.

As I said, the booing comes from pure frustration, and there was more of it at the final whistle, so Biggus if you want to say that Wenger didnt get booed theres actually an argument to be made that the booing at the end was directed at Wenger and the whole team

 

[sabret00the]

anyone else find is hilarious that wenger took a game that was supposed to be about real football and only sent out workman?

????

other than Van Persie (who eventually came on) what other options did we have?

You're right, there weren't no other options really. But leaving your most effective player out of the starting line up at a time like this, doesn't help.

I think in these scenarios when you want to play a risky game, you're better to play a risky game and try and compensate for his absence. the likes of wilshere and ramsey would've been my options. emphasis on the former rather than latter.

 

[Gurgen]

Can't believe I skipped 2 hours of beach time to watch this ****e, that's all I'm gonna say.

 

[Enfield]

I know this is a long shot and a bit cheeky but does anyone have a ticket they could sell me for Sunday. I'm in town for the weekend to visit my brother and I won't get another chance to come back to London just for a game. My brother wouldn't know a football team in london let alone get me tickets. Genuine gooner fan. To hell with Arshavin, I'll even bring my boots and play for free… If anyone can help send me a PM and I'll get in touch.
Thanks.