Arsenal vs Man City Player Ratings

[Anzac]

RVP isn't a 'proper' CF/striker IMO simply because his fitness is unreliable throughout a season. He's had major time out each season and we also need to add the playing time for him to regain both match fitness AND form. IMO it's rediculous to build our attack with him as primary/lone striker until such time as he is able/has proven that we can rely upon him physically.

I really have no idea as to how to tighten up the criteria re 'around the area', unless there is some agreement as to what constitutes a goal scoring opportunity that doesn't rely upon a shot being taken, particularly as we are content at times to pass the ball around probing before looking to penetrate the area.

RVP & Theo are about our only players who are willing to shoot from other than in front and inside the area with any regularity, although Nik has scored from the corner of the area a couple of times.

 

[yuvken]

"no idea as to how to tighten up the criteria" - probably means we'll need to try harder.

VP is the best thing we have. Practically (now) it's going all out on him, or another. No brainer. As for later - different story. Many were with you on this, for the same reason. Let's see how/if he keeps fit til the end of the season (at least my fingers will be crossed). If he does keep fit, as I said earlier, I believe his form will do the talking.

Shooting - Cesc used to fancy that too, He's tried the odd shot and frankly was poor. I guess we'll see more of that as he gets more comfortable with form.
Nas has it, though admittedly hasn't tried it enough, with the fringe we had Denilson (though that's rare), and whatever happened to Rosicky's long range shots only god knows (it left with most of his quality, as seen in 07-8?)

 

[truth_hurts]

Wha? RVP hasn't looked dangerous on a set-piece since 06.... he's bloody shocking.

His delivery from free kicks and corners is usually excellent. Nobody else in our squad is anywhere near RVP from that aspect.

 

[banduan]

flappy 7
sagna 6
djorou 7
kosh 7
clichy 7
song 8
cesc 7
jack 6
nasri 7
theo 6
rvp 6

It was a good performance but really some of our attacking play did not come off very well. Jack was guilty of an awful miss and some sloppy play but was overall decent. Theo was also wasteful despite doing fairly decently as well.

 

[mo50]

Wha? RVP hasn't looked dangerous on a set-piece since 06.... he's bloody shocking.

His delivery from free kicks and corners is usually excellent. Nobody else in our squad is anywhere near RVP from that aspect.

He also scored from one a week ago. As you mentioned though, he delivers it with pace and more often than not precision. Our lack of quality headers of the ball is the problem. With the absence of Vermaelen and Chamakh not playing, his corners look useless.

 

[celestis]

I firmly believe if the team that played Chelsea is allowed to gel further we are going to see a much higher rate of efficiency in front of goal .

How may thought Nasri capable of scoring as many as he has ? I believe Walcotts influence and goals will expand as well just a little more time is needed and sky is the limit.

 

[outlaw_member]

For what it's worth. I don't have a problem with van Persie as a player. My issue is using him as a CF. Plus, his performances are usually good, and he's one of our better performers. However, I personally desire that the main striker was our best performer, or atleast as good as Cesc. If there is one thing that every successful side in recent times has had, it's a great, great goalscorer. We don't have that, at the moment at least.

 

[outlaw_member]

As for shooting, and particularly as this debate highlights Robin's contribution and style, would be good to look at what he really did in the last game (and it's a trend that started earlier, he obviously feels better every game, thus knows it's worth a try): he was shooting long range (despite your last claims), and only the post and a superb save kept one of his efforts out, he was shooting from inside and not just in a certain-to-score type (the one from tight angle to near post after short corner), and he was making room for these shots himself.
I don't know how on earth anyone can claim he was not being "a proper CF". At least in this game, against a very good and tight defense, he did extremely well, trying to open the D up from a different side or range each time, and he was very close to making it too.

people seem to want Robin to be Robin, Henry and Adebayor together. Well he's never gonna be that. He doesn't have TH's speed (and thus outlaw's wishes for a striker of great skill and speed will not be answered here), and he will probably never have the great headers to do Adebayor/Chamakh or even Nik. Wow - a seriously flawed striker.

It's a good thing to look at his game with a bit more than the tiresome "good link up play". Though he's surely great in that, and helps the team tick, he has some personal qualities which make him top quality: his ball control, first touch, ability to operate from wherever, brilliant reading and anticipating (yeah, he should have actually done better with Jack's pass, but oh well), fantastic shot from all ranges, and a great ability to make situations for himself.

I said it before (and I saw Ricky was at pains to demonstrate this) - he is a great, great player for us, and all that is really wrong with him is his injury record. Which is why I said and will repeat: if he stays fit, I will not need to argue for it, it will be self-evident.

Sadly, Robin hitting the post is hardly something new. I'm pretty sure he has a record for hitting the woodwork more than any player in recent times. Over the years, he's had many, many close calls which on the face of it would suggest that he's just been unfortunate. Hell, I was directed to his performance against Rangers with Feyenoord, and surprise, surprise, he hit the post in that game aswell, in spectacular fashion might I add. If it continues in such a manner, as it has done, it makes you wonder whether the actual truth is that he's just not that clinical. The save Hart made off van Persie was a carbon copy of Gomes's against him last season. Maybe, he is just unlucky, but that excuse is wearing thin.

No, he doesn't need to be all of that. Like I said to you before, Henry, the old Anelka, the old Torres, Wright, Eto'o and players of that style is what I desire up front. He is also a flawed striker when you consider that physically he's deficient, as he's not strong, nor quick, nor durable. There was a moment in our very last game where a side rule pass had van Persie pitted against Kompany who dealt with him easily, because Robin didn't have the power, or pace to hurt him. van Persie does compensate for his lack of physical attributes by playing smarter, but another question is how durable can he be during a game, as you can only so long overcome your lack of physicality. His influence wanes terribly in the latter half of matches, and it's a wonder whether it is just match fitness he requires, considering he's been fit for a while now.

'Link up play' is just an umbrella term for an array of qualities, such as awareness, first touch, hold up play, ability to combine with others, amongst other skills which constitutes linking up play. For me, he's not too dissimilar to Koscielny is as a defender. They're both technically top class, and have great intelligence. The problem is that they're both physically deficient. Someone like Djourou doesn't have as much nous as Koscielny, but the game is easier for him, because he's built like a powerhouse. Similarly, Drogba isn't as technically or mentally gifted as van Persie is, but his sheer physicality elevates his capabilities. Likewise, with players like Tevez, Rooney, Eto'o etc. Someone who is quite similar to van Persie is David Villa in terms of attributes, albeit he's quicker and probably better technically. But he too isn't ideal as a lone CF, because of certain physical deficiencies and is precisely why both Barcelona and Spain encourage him to play outwide, even though many would argue that he's the best striker in the world.

By the way, I also persistently criticise van Persie, not necessarily because of his recent performances, but rather down to the fact that I don't view him as our long term CF option. I'm more than happy with him for the rest of the season, provided he stays fit.

 

[yuvken]

If I'm not wrong, you are one to like (and perhaps miss) 442. (Even if I'm wrong here, put that to one side) - if we play 442, do you like VP (say behind Chams or Nik, or another "natural" CF?

Another thing: you'd have right now, in our system - who exactly? I would agree myself with Drogba of 2 years ago. Also Eto'o of the same time. I like Villa, but you say yourself he's no better - more or less the same (surprise: our big n' beautiful sis does the same thing? how come?) who else? Rooney?
Last time we played one of "those" we were 442, and (til injured) Robin was there too.
Right now, as hard as it is to digest, we don't play a system or philosophy equal to that of other teams (well, maybe there are exceptions...), and within that Robin has many advantages.

I did not pretend he is perfect - I listed some of his short comings myself. But right now I can't be sold on anyone else. I must admit, if he stays fit (and given us playing the same system) I would probably not be willing to listen later either (fitness is a claim; and another will be, simply, if he doesn't play as well as I think he will).
(sorry, gotta go. hope to catch this later) :wink:

 

[tam1886]

RVP & Theo are about our only players who are willing to shoot from other than in front and inside the area with any regularity, although Nik has scored from the corner of the area a couple of times.

I'm not sure about that Anzac I reckon Fabregas and Nasri make attempts on goal more often than Walcott from different positions, but I think that's got a lot to do with taking the opportunity when the situation presents itself. Those two are certainly more likely to fashion themselves the opportunity than Walcott is. Neither seemed scared to take on a shot however you do notice Fabregas shooting more when we're chasing the game, just another of those many signs of desperation the team exhibits in those situations.

As for corners, Squillaci has had his critics but he is one player who does seem a threat in the opposition box. He seems to be one of those players who is always in or around the action at corners.

 

[Anzac]

One thing I noticed with RVP v City was how DEEP he was playing at times - it was almost like a 4-6-0 with a false CF. I think Robson made a comment during the match that RVP comes deeper to 'link' than Chamakh. There was one point where RVP was playing the ball from behind the midfield & from inside our own half.

The other issue that springs to mind is how RVP said last season that we had to change from how we played at the start of the season as he wasn't able to press & close down AND have the energy to play as main striker. Given that we have made a concerted effort of late to put a lot MORE pressure on teams, it again raises questions re RVP's physical ability to do both, and places greater emphasis on our WFs & AMC to score.

 

[yuvken]

It's a real question, this - true, we are finally putting serious pressure, and sure, you can see how around the hour mark it's just not possible anymore.
But - VP of all? I think he was doing great - maybe better than anyone else. Cesc was decent too. Considering these 2 are not even fully fit yet, criticizing them here sounds a bit harsh to me.
But your question stands: are we willing to pay, is it a good trade off the way VP presented it?
I say yes. At least a "contingent yes". To me the visible step up in the level we play in the last few weeks has to do with the players returning, and, perhaps even more so, with applying the pressure "like we mean it".
It depends on the opposition, on specific parts in specific games, but the way I see it VP plays well and his level is steadily rising (likewise Cesc) - all that while "pressure on". I also can't see why subs can only be made in the last 10 minutes of the game: if we are playing a citeh-like game, and pressure takes too much - subs can be made much earlier. We do have Chamakh (and others).

 

[Anzac]

It's a real question, this - true, we are finally putting serious pressure, and sure, you can see how around the hour mark it's just not possible anymore.
But - VP of all? I think he was doing great - maybe better than anyone else. Cesc was decent too. Considering these 2 are not even fully fit yet, criticizing them here sounds a bit harsh to me.
But your question stands: are we willing to pay, is it a good trade off the way VP presented it?
I say yes. At least a "contingent yes". To me the visible step up in the level we play in the last few weeks has to do with the players returning, and, perhaps even more so, with applying the pressure "like we mean it".
It depends on the opposition, on specific parts in specific games, but the way I see it VP plays well and his level is steadily rising (likewise Cesc) - all that while "pressure on". I also can't see why subs can only be made in the last 10 minutes of the game: if we are playing a citeh-like game, and pressure takes too much - subs can be made much earlier. We do have Chamakh (and others).

The 'issue' is balance between form & function. RVP said he was unable to do both effectively as pressing impacted upon his sharpness & stamina in front of goal. The implications of this are obvious & places greater emphasis upon our supporting cast to score goals, not just in the actual match being played but even moreso in regards to the requirements of playing 2-3 matches a week when it counts during the run home. We 'need' the technical players to execute our press AND remain creative, yet we also need to maintain our ability to score goals. RVP for me may well be our best goal scorer, but I am concerned that he doesn't have the physical capabilities to do so on a regular basis.

 

[yuvken]

I understand the "issue" perfectly well, and I thought this was something with no obvious answer (apparently so does the boss).
Another trade off question (more acute?) seems to rise regarding Shava: His stats are amazing, 12 assists and 7 goals - though lately you can't find any one who hasn't more or less "had enough". That includes the boss as well, probably. That does not mean anyone is thick enough to not understand the meaning of "leader of contribution chart", but alternatively, that this seems to cost our entire system too much: Shava cannot play that double role (the one you say VP suffers so much from), and leaves Clichy looking like someone who for many fans is our worst problem, and once he is off (Nas goes left and Theo in his place), though with a far inferior sub in terms of contribution (at the very least) - we seem to be playing better, and winning.
There are many similarities imo between the two, but I'd settle for saying - things are not as simple as one (VP? yourself, or others) would be tempted to put them.

 

[General]

On that note, how one-footed is Wilshere! He doesn't even go for simple passes with his right.

When the alternative is Denilson or Diaby, Wilshere's one footedness should be the least of our worries. It's more conspicuous because he's left footed (similar to Edu). How often do you see Fabregas pass with his left foot? Under the tensions and mental demands of matchdays what may look like a simple could easily lead to disaster if misplaced.

 

[Tourbillion]

Yep. It's almost as infuriating as people saying "X has such a sweet left peg" etc. Never is the same said of right footed players.

 

[Anzac]

I understand the "issue" perfectly well, and I thought this was something with no obvious answer (apparently so does the boss).
Another trade off question (more acute?) seems to rise regarding Shava: His stats are amazing, 12 assists and 7 goals - though lately you can't find any one who hasn't more or less "had enough". That includes the boss as well, probably. That does not mean anyone is thick enough to not understand the meaning of "leader of contribution chart", but alternatively, that this seems to cost our entire system too much: Shava cannot play that double role (the one you say VP suffers so much from), and leaves Clichy looking like someone who for many fans is our worst problem, and once he is off (Nas goes left and Theo in his place), though with a far inferior sub in terms of contribution (at the very least) - we seem to be playing better, and winning.
There are many similarities imo between the two, but I'd settle for saying - things are not as simple as one (VP? yourself, or others) would be tempted to put them.

IMO AA has become our 'luxury' player with AW's recent comments re his quality in the final 3rd, and perhaps AA is guilty of thinking the same?

IMO our most potent attack is a front 3 of AA-RVP-Nasri, but AA on the left gives us a very 'light' left side with Clichy & Wilshere. Perhaps it would be interesting to see how our stability/balance/productivity is if we looked to swap AA & Nasri permanently? Likewise perhaps Sagna & Song will also be more likely to 'talk' to AA to keep him 'honest' re his work rate etc?

 

[yuvken]

AA just can't - it's not that he's not "honest". True Bac can perhaps handle it a bit better, and true Nas and AA can swap sides, but Theo can't. And I don't see AA doing particularly better on the right, so - what for?
We currently have 2 different set-ups up front (we've discussed this earlier here): one is the one you mentioned, and is more potent when there are no spaces to exploit behind the D ("buzzing" around the area general scenario). The other is with Theo instead (giving us spead and threatening a D that feels too good about itself, a la cashly, etc). This is very general, and talks about our ideal first 11 (which, according to this is 12...).

I only entered into this discussion as I thought some of the earlier analysis regarding VP was not clear enough. AA was just an example, when one avenue of this debate was "how he can't do both things". He can, and should - but yes, to a limited extent (it's a trade off).

 

[Lukazan]

Wha? RVP hasn't looked dangerous on a set-piece since 06.... he's bloody shocking.

He scored from a set piece last week.

Yeah, because that was an excellently crafted free kick. Straight over the wall and high in to the top corner where no keeper could reach it and NOT a free kick that, until a massively fortunate deflection took it in to the back of the net, was looking just like every other free kick RVP takes - crap.

Oh, wait..

 

[Iloveyouarsenewenger]

I think, he must have hit the post three or four times from free kicks between his two goals from a direct free kick. But then, he hits the post three times between every two goal he scores, as well.