Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

[FinnGooner]

That's great. You what I'd love? I'd love Arsenal to win the title, in fact all possible titles, this season and every year after that until the day I die and beyond, no matter who is managing. That'd be just awesome.

 

[Makingtrax]

Koeman has never had more money in his disposal than Wenger, yet his record shows he can set his sides against Arsène very well (Koeman's record over five different team is DDWDWLWLWWDW,). Is it really so difficult to face facts? I guess post-truth is indeed a very good name for the times we live in.

Everton were the better side despite a few calls going against us. It shouldn't come as a surprise to Wenger that away from home you don't always get the calls you deserve. It also shouldn't come as a surprise that Koeman sets his side to play very physical game against us. Every single neutral fan that saw the game said Everton fully deserved the victory and I agree. And that is not saying that I wanted Everton to win or that I'm in any way pleased that they did.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying Koeman is better manager than Wenger and I'm certainly not saying that Koeman would be better manager for Arsenal than Wenger is but he obviously does know how to set his teams against us and his record against Wenger's Arsenal proves it. If Wenger wants to win another title, he has to get rid of these bogeymen managers. Simple as. It's not about me wanting Wegner out or anything. If Wenger doesn't find a way to beat certain managers and their rugby style approach, he will not win another PL title. It really doesn't matter if me, you or anybody else on this forum wants it or not.

Also, just because we lose a game where a call goes against us, doesn't mean we would've won or drew the game if the ref had made the call right.

You're looking short term and very simplistically. Nobody's saying Wenger is perfect, he makes mistakes like all the other managers. Football is a complex game and I actually don't believe there's much between all the top managers. But this 'one manager's got another's number' is child's stuff.

Wenger beat Ranieri twice last year and had his number but Ranieri beat most of the rest and had their number. But this year they've all got his number. It's f***ing rubbish.

Wenger's managed us for over 1110 games and in that time the vast majority of loses are to richer clubs. It's as simple as that. Looking over a dozen games is meaningless. Whatever his shortcomings he's nearly always finished slightly above his squad value, in a game where most finish on or below (with exception of maybe Simeone). But he still probably won't win the league until Arsenal can match the big boys for squad depth (but they are moving up) or unless he has a fluke season like Leicester.

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

You're looking short term and very simplistically. Nobody's saying Wenger is perfect, he makes mistakes like all the other managers. Football is a complex game and I actually don't believe there's much between all the top managers. But this 'one manager's got another's number' is child's stuff.

Wenger beat Ranieri twice last year and had his number but Ranieri beat most of the rest and had their number. But this year they've all got his number. It's f***ing rubbish.

Wenger's managed us for over 1110 games and in that time the vast majority of loses are to richer clubs. It's as simple as that. Looking over a dozen games is meaningless. Whatever his shortcomings he's nearly always finished slightly above his squad value, in a game where most finish on or below (with exception of maybe Simeone). But he still probably won't win the league until Arsenal can match the big boys for squad depth (but they are moving up) or unless he has a fluke season like Leicester.

Yep, Birmingham are richer than us and everyone in the CL are always richer than us too. You need to spend a fortune to fix GK and CB. Our squad is as deep and better balanced than Man City. Doesn't matter if we didn't have to overpay for transfers. Over the past few years we've over paid players a fortune for zero output under Wenger's watch with his self created wage distribution policy that has fvck all to do with reality.

This season we have the squad to win the league and I believe we can. If we don't only Wenger is going to be at fault. Injuries are his responsibility but we don't have that left as an excuse anyway.

 

[Garrincha]

This team is at the start of a cycle... New center back partnership, new central midfield partnership, completely new striker style & playing last seasons fringe players in the wide positions.

You cant judge it yet. Providing Özil, Alexis & Wenger renew it has the potential to get better & better.

 

[Makingtrax]

This season we have the squad to win the league and I believe we can. If we don't only Wenger is going to be at fault. Injuries are his responsibility but we don't have that left as an excuse anyway.

That's a fair enough point if you believe that.

But you don't mind if I disagree. Our elite players are indeed a match for anyone: Sanchez, Özil, Cech, Kos, Santi, maybe Bellerin. But Santi's always injured these days.

But Walcott, Ramsey and Ox, whilst excellent at times are too often cack. Replacing them with elite players, if we could get them would be another maybe £150 m. Then we'd be up to Chelsea spending. But not Man C and Man U.

Monreal Coq, Gibbs are good EPL standard, nothing special though. Mustafi is good too and has settled quickly. Iwobi is work in progress, but can be excellent. Elneny seems solid.

Debuchy's always injured, Jenkinson is way below par ATM. Xhaka has a lot question marks and is adjusting to the EPL. Welbeck is always injured. Holding work in progress.

Personally I don't think that squad is anywhere near United's depth. It has a way to go.

 

[Vinci]

That's a fair enough point if you believe that.

But you don't mind if I disagree. Our elite players are indeed a match for anyone: Sanchez, Özil, Cech, Kos, Santi, maybe Bellerin. But Santi's always injured these days.

But Walcott, Ramsey and Ox, whilst excellent at times are too often cack. Replacing them with elite players, if we could get them would be another maybe £150 m. Then we'd be up to Chelsea spending. But not Man C and Man U.

Monreal Coq, Gibbs are good EPL standard, nothing special though. Mustafi is good too and has settled quickly. Iwobi is work in progress, but can be excellent. Elneny seems solid.

Debuchy's always injured, Jenkinson is way below par ATM. Xhaka has a lot question marks and is adjusting to the EPL. Welbeck is always injured. Holding work in progress.

Personally I don't think that squad is anywhere near United's depth. It has a way to go.

Your most negative post ever, shame on you.

 

[Makingtrax]

Your most negative post ever, shame on you.

Just realism, no BS

 

[Notorious Big]

Ian Wright: " I feel that Wenger finally made the team that he wanted for a long period and that he has right players to win big things.Do you really think that man who wanted to build team for a such a long time now wants to leave club that he loves that much ? United was just opposite when Sir Alex left. "

 

[Rocky]

You're looking short term and very simplistically. Nobody's saying Wenger is perfect, he makes mistakes like all the other managers. Football is a complex game and I actually don't believe there's much between all the top managers. But this 'one manager's got another's number' is child's stuff.

Wenger beat Ranieri twice last year and had his number but Ranieri beat most of the rest and had their number. But this year they've all got his number. It's f***ing rubbish.

Wenger's managed us for over 1110 games and in that time the vast majority of loses are to richer clubs. It's as simple as that. Looking over a dozen games is meaningless. Whatever his shortcomings he's nearly always finished slightly above his squad value, in a game where most finish on or below (with exception of maybe Simeone). But he still probably won't win the league until Arsenal can match the big boys for squad depth (but they are moving up) or unless he has a fluke season like Leicester.

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

I personally think the only squad that is deeper in quality than Arsenal's is Man City's, but even that is a close call because they have some serious holes in various positions like GK, CB and full-back.

I don't think Chelsea's squad is any deeper than Arsenal's. It could be a second year running where lack of European Football has made rival's squad's deeper relative to Arsenal's by having less games.

 

[Makingtrax]

I personally think the only squad that is deeper in quality than Arsenal's is Man City's, but even that is a close call because they have some serious holes in various positions like GK, CB and full-back.

I don't think Chelsea's squad is any deeper than Arsenal's. It could be a second year running where lack of European Football has made rival's squad's deeper relative to Arsenal's by having less games.

This all opinion mate, so you could be right.

Personally I think Sanchez and Özil, are similar in class to Costa and Hazard.

But the likes of Willian, Oscar, Pedro, Fabregas , Kante, Matic etc are much more consistent players and less injury prone than the likes Walcott, Ox and Ramsey, Coq, Iwobi.

Xahka and Elneny are still adjusting to the Prem, whilst the Chelsea guys are all seasoned campaigners. Santi is always injured of course.

The back lines and keeper are similar or perhaps Arsenal edge it.

No contest for me.

 

[Rocky]

This all opinion mate, so you could be right.

Personally I think Sanchez and Özil, are similar in class to Costa and Hazard.

But the likes of Willian, Oscar, Pedro, Fabregas , Kante, Matic etc are much more consistent players and less injury prone than the likes Walcott, Ox and Ramsey, Coq, Iwobi.

Xahka and Elneny are still adjusting to the Prem, whilst the Chelsea guys are all seasoned campaigners. Santi is always injured of course.

The back lines and keeper are similar or perhaps Arsenal edge it.

No contest for me.

You make a good case there, but you have players like Moses and Alonso who you've not mentioned, who Chelsea are making use of in their system. Moses isn't really a defender but is suited to the wing-back position.

Absolutely Arsenal don't have wide players that can match Hazard, Willian, Pedro unless they put Alexis out there and have a significantly weaker striker than Costa such as Giroud.

Özil is quality but doesn't have that physical dynamism or work rate of a Hazrd or Willian. Walcott is quick back lacks the footballing abiltity of a Pedro.

Seems it's a bit more about quality, versatility and physicality than 'depth' per se, but it's six and one and half a dozen of the other and the lack of European football is only going to help...

 

[4R5Emaniac]

That's a fair enough point if you believe that.

But you don't mind if I disagree. Our elite players are indeed a match for anyone: Sanchez, Özil, Cech, Kos, Santi, maybe Bellerin. But Santi's always injured these days.

But Walcott, Ramsey and Ox, whilst excellent at times are too often cack. Replacing them with elite players, if we could get them would be another maybe £150 m. Then we'd be up to Chelsea spending. But not Man C and Man U.

Monreal Coq, Gibbs are good EPL standard, nothing special though. Mustafi is good too and has settled quickly. Iwobi is work in progress, but can be excellent. Elneny seems solid.

Debuchy's always injured, Jenkinson is way below par ATM. Xhaka has a lot question marks and is adjusting to the EPL. Welbeck is always injured. Holding work in progress.

Personally I don't think that squad is anywhere near United's depth. It has a way to go.

Fair enough arguments. I think we're a few levels above United honestly. They need a revamp of players. And they, City and Chelski overpay for players.

Chelsea get a good amount while selling. Something we must put our thought in to. We could get good money and an always evolving squad if we move on players. Squad renewal is a healthy practice if you look at Bayern and Barcelona with how they do it.

Rest I agree with but I would add that both the players and the managers are responsible for their development. Wenger-this is something that is highly debatable and disagreeable- I think doesn't do well with positional game for development and players that need a hand on how to play. Look at how well Barcelona and recently Lyon have done with coaching that at youth level. I get that from the development of Cesc-this is why-, Ramsey and Wilshere who are all positionally clueless.

One good sign is that we're producing talents who look a few levels above we've ever done. Something that Sralex maximized to great effect during his time with Man Utd's homegrown bunch. My personal dream is we produce a world class bunch of players from within. Recently, Wenger become braver again with young players. I guess the heart break from Cesc RVP stuff kind of had an effect.

 

[Makingtrax]

You make a good case there, but you have players like Moses and Alonso who you've not mentioned, who Chelsea are making use of in their system. Moses isn't really a defender but is suited to the wing-back position.

Absolutely Arsenal don't have wide players that can match Hazard, Willian, Pedro unless they put Alexis out there and have a significantly weaker striker than Costa such as Giroud.

Özil is quality but doesn't have that physical dynamism or work rate of a Hazrd or Willian. Walcott is quick back lacks the footballing abiltity of a Pedro.

Seems it's a bit more about quality, versatility and physicality than 'depth' per se, but it's six and one and half a dozen of the other and the lack of European football is only going to help...

Yeah, 'depth' implies quality of the 1st team and back-up.

Moses has played really well in Conte's new system, can't fault him.

Giroud hasn't featured much since Alexis had the CF spot but the few minutes he's been on has been productive.

Wenger's invested a lot in Ramsey, Ox and Walcott and in their early days they showed big promise. But that's the problem, if you can't afford to buy the finished article, like the big three can, youth buys are always a gamble. Those three should now be in their prime and are still flattering to deceive.

 

[bingobob]

You're looking short term and very simplistically. Nobody's saying Wenger is perfect, he makes mistakes like all the other managers. Football is a complex game and I actually don't believe there's much between all the top managers. But this 'one manager's got another's number' is child's stuff.

Wenger beat Ranieri twice last year and had his number but Ranieri beat most of the rest and had their number. But this year they've all got his number. It's f***ing rubbish.

Wenger's managed us for over 1110 games and in that time the vast majority of loses are to richer clubs. It's as simple as that. Looking over a dozen games is meaningless. Whatever his shortcomings he's nearly always finished slightly above his squad value, in a game where most finish on or below (with exception of maybe Simeone). But he still probably won't win the league until Arsenal can match the big boys for squad depth (but they are moving up) or unless he has a fluke season like Leicester.

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

Simplistic and short term then you use one season to justify your stance.

Go explain away our record against Stoke, United and Mourinho. Look at our record against other teams as well. 4 wins out of 10 against Southampton.

Teams can lose games. That's expected. However where you regularly drop points against the same teams it's a problem.

Out of 15 points so far we've picked up 5 against teams or managers I deem to be a bogey for us. Over a season that means 10 out of 33 (extra 3 as Stoke is only away). That leaves a possible 81 points on the board. Throw in the ten we may average a maximum of 91 points. Last season Leicester won the league with 81, Chelsea with 87 before and City with 86 before that.

There is lies the major problem. A lot of our losses are more predicable leaving less room for mistakes elsewhere which inevitably happen. For the others their misfortunes are less predictable giving them more room for error. You can afford to drop around 30 points, if we drop 23 from 33 it means a near perfect season elsewhere. We've already dropped points against Leicester and Middlesborough. That's it we can't afford anymore unless he increase that average. At least based on how I view our bogey teams and likelihood of picking up enough points in those games.

 

[TriniGunner]

This thread is depressing. Go empty your prostates!

 

[Notorious Big]

We have good squad,mentality and not good game plan is the main problem with Wenger.We were in this situation many times before and we're all scared that'll happen again.

 

[FinnGooner]

You're looking short term and very simplistically. Nobody's saying Wenger is perfect, he makes mistakes like all the other managers. Football is a complex game and I actually don't believe there's much between all the top managers. But this 'one manager's got another's number' is child's stuff.

Wenger beat Ranieri twice last year and had his number but Ranieri beat most of the rest and had their number. But this year they've all got his number. It's f***ing rubbish.

Wenger's managed us for over 1110 games and in that time the vast majority of loses are to richer clubs. It's as simple as that. Looking over a dozen games is meaningless. Whatever his shortcomings he's nearly always finished slightly above his squad value, in a game where most finish on or below (with exception of maybe Simeone). But he still probably won't win the league until Arsenal can match the big boys for squad depth (but they are moving up) or unless he has a fluke season like Leicester.

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

I don't think looking over a dozen games is meaningless if the manager is the common denominator in when comparing certain trends.

I mostly agree with what you are saying but imo one thing that has been our weakness for years are games like we had against Everton. Pulis (@britannia), Mourinho and Koeman have all been very tough opponents for Wenger even when managing different teams. That tells me that in these cases it's fair to assume some manager's styles fit better against other managers. The common denominator for all these managers is the fact they tend to set their teams up, at least against us, with overly physical, almost rugby-like, style and way too often it has worked. I think we've got better with that over time but it still seems to happen. Most managers out there can't simply instill that sort of aggressiveness into their team without their whole game falling apart so that's why everybody can't do it effectively. However, looking at records between these few managers, it's justified to argue that Wenger has difficulties against them particularily. Now saying they have his number etc., I never used that expression. I don't think the difference is huge and the games are always tight and some of them could've gone the other way but when talking about titles, every margin matters.

 

[MaraDon]

This all opinion mate, so you could be right.

Personally I think Sanchez and Özil, are similar in class to Costa and Hazard.

But the likes of Willian, Oscar, Pedro, Fabregas , Kante, Matic etc are much more consistent players and less injury prone than the likes Walcott, Ox and Ramsey, Coq, Iwobi.

Xahka and Elneny are still adjusting to the Prem, whilst the Chelsea guys are all seasoned campaigners. Santi is always injured of course.

The back lines and keeper are similar or perhaps Arsenal edge it.

No contest for me.

If we compare player vs player chelsea has the best team ON PAPER.
lets just play a game here:
I would take 4 players from chelsea: Willian azpi matic and costa Willian is world class. I would take Matic only if Xhaka doesnt work or just to pair both of them on midfield , and i would take Azpi just because you have wet dreams about a player like him, put him wheatever you want on the field and he would perform, top top top top class defender. Willian is super underated, iwobi is very similar to him because willian is about hard work, conections availability and dicipline in transitions. Iwobi has similar qualities without the same level of flair and the free kick hability.
Oscar doesnt count because they are not using him and he is leaving in january.
Pedro is average, i feel we are a level above both pedro and moses, playing the ox iwobi and walcott, even ramsey on the right. Problem is on chelsea current system, both pedro and moses are very important players.
fabregas is getting his form back on track but he is too inconsistent, and even with matic and kante behind him you feel he should be doing much better, I stick with Özil.
I like Kante a lot but coquelin can play that role better, even El-neny ¡, we play a collective system in witch both of them are good assets and we dont miss a kante much nowadays,

We need to understand that all this comparison stuff is pointless if you dont see the bigger picture, our team is playing together for 4 seasons now, knowing exactly what sort of football we play, and without losing any important player + without the inconsistency of losing a manger and changing direction. We are the best team on the league because of this. Yes, chelsea is the team to beat, we all agree on that, but lets not get carried away by there current form, we are on great form aswell, only thing that can play against us is our CL fixtures.

 

[Makingtrax]

Fair enough arguments. I think we're a few levels above United honestly. They need a revamp of players. And they, City and Chelski overpay for players.

Chelsea get a good amount while selling. Something we must put our thought in to. We could get good money and an always evolving squad if we move on players. Squad renewal is a healthy practice if you look at Bayern and Barcelona with how they do it.

Rest I agree with but I would add that both the players and the managers are responsible for their development. Wenger-this is something that is highly debatable and disagreeable- I think doesn't do well with positional game for development and players that need a hand on how to play. Look at how well Barcelona and recently Lyon have done with coaching that at youth level. I get that from the development of Cesc-this is why-, Ramsey and Wilshere who are all positionally clueless.

One good sign is that we're producing talents who look a few levels above we've ever done. Something that Sralex maximized to great effect during his time with Man Utd's homegrown bunch. My personal dream is we produce a world class bunch of players from within. Recently, Wenger become braver again with young players. I guess the heart break from Cesc RVP stuff kind of had an effect.

It would be great to realise that dream but it's less of a gamble to buy older, tried and tested players if you have the money of course.

Ramsey's problems are not just his positioning. His first touch is often poor and gives the ball away far too much. At the very top level that isn't good enough . . fine margins. There's a number of coaches at Arsenal, not least the well respected Jonker. They must meet up regularly and discuss strategies through development stages. Wenger is not acting alone a any level.

As for over paying, it's a simple matter of supply and demand.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

It would be great to realise that dream but it's less of a gamble to buy older, tried and tested players if you have the money of course.

Ramsey's problems are not just his positioning. His first touch is often poor and gives the ball away far too much. At the very top level that isn't good enough . . fine margins. There's a number of coaches at Arsenal, not least the well respected Jonker. They must meet up regularly and discuss strategies through development stages. Wenger is not acting alone a any level.

As for over paying, it's a simple matter of supply and demand.

Thats policy is fine but at some point, if you want be a constantly competitive giant club you need a core group of players that come from the academy.

Ramsey, yeah not just his positional game but my point was its a pattern pointing towards Wenger. He is an average football player with a great engine and some movement in the final third yet mindless. And of course Wenger isn't alone but Jonker came recently. It takes time.

Yes but its overpaying above their actual value just because of which club wants to do the move. Us wanting a player is not like City, Chelsea or Man Utd who have to pay over the odds for every player. Look how much it took Chelsea to buy back David Luiz and Marcos Alonso who are poor players. Mind boggling amount because its Chelsea. If Arsenal went for Marcos Alonso he'd cost 10 million or around that at most. I've seen him play enough times to know that his worth is just that. And thats just an example from a pretty big list of average or merely squad players moving for big money. Man Utd, Chelsea and City are filled with them.