Chelsea v Arsenal - EPL - Sun 7th Feb 2010 - 16:00

[Timleaf]

Mikel is a pretty average player, young, fairly inexperienced, but you dont find him out of position too often, or recklessly charging forward. The attitude and philosophy at Chelsea or Utd is far more condusive to getting the best out the team when they dont have the ball than it is at Arsenal.

Edit: I'm not saying I want us to play like Chelsea, but we need to find a better balance.

 

[ricky1985]

Yes, I do. Barcelona, in my opinion, will always beat United and Chelsea (not every time, but you catch my drift), because the game is on their terms and in their hands.

United and Chelsea are completely reactive to what Barcelona decide to do. Why? Because they don't have the ability to dominate them, to take 65% of the ball away from home, and make Barcelona play their game. They sit back, defend for their lives, and hope for the best. Sure it can work, but like I said; it's limiting.

Barcelona can turn up anywhere, on any giuven day, and beat anyone. That's why they are clearly the best team in Europe, and it's where Wenger is trying to get us to.

As we grow as a team and a squad, we will eventually reach a point when the players who are costing us now, given they have the requisite quality, will be able to reproduce their level in games like today, where every moment counts, and the pressure is intense, and then United and Chelsea's reactive, "we're the inferior team" approach won't work against us.

Your last paragraph is the one that invalidates the argument, because you say "given they have the requisite quality"....how do we know they do? We've won nothing in years, and we've regularly lost to United and Chelsea, both in the league and in Europe. What has been gained from those losses? What did we gain by losing to United in the CL last year? What did we take from that that we've implemented this season?

At the end of the day/season, you don't win a trophy for style points. The table (or the draw in the CL) tells you who the best team was. It doesn't matter how you got to that point. Again, no one is saying (at least Im not) that we should play like Aston Villa for 60 games a season. Im saying that the other big teams out there (United, Chelsea in our own league) know what our Plan A is. And they've developed a plan to neutralize Plan A. The best managers know what the other team is going to do, and they develop a plan to neutralize it. Playing beautiful, passing football is a great Plan A against 99% of the teams in the world. But for the other 1%, it can only help your chances by having something up your sleeve, something the other team isn't expecting. And that's not "playing negative football", its showing the other team a different look, something they weren't ready for. It gives you the upper hand, and it gives you a tactical advantage.

Have you ever seen Rocky II? Mickey gets Rocky to learn how to fight righthanded, and when the fight starts, Apollo doesn't know what to do. When he fought him the previous time, Rocky just fought southpaw. Thats what Apollo trained for. But Rocky comes out fighting righthanded, and Apollo is stunned. Hes off his game. Rocky stands in, takes his lumps, then switches to his style at the end and wins the fight. Sorry if that was a spoiler.

I don't care about points for style or any of that, what I am saying is to play like Barcelona or to be the aggressor, the dominant team, is more effective. Than to assume inferiority, and rely upon a team not being able to break you down, even though they'll prbably have 65% of the ball and have far more opportunity to.

It's only because we're not currently good enough that Chelsea and United beat us, not because of their styles, that's what I'm saying. Once our ability to perform under pressure improves, and we start to reproduce our real quality in games like today, our style will trump theirs nearly every time, because we have the ability to dominate a game between us, and they don't. At the moment they are relying on us not being good enough to break them down, when we are good enough (and we will be in time) they will have no answer, beyond hoping that our dominance doesn't translate into goals.

And I have seen Rocky II, and I would extend the analogy further, United and Chelsea are like boxers who stay on the ropes, hoping that the boxer they're facing doesn't find the right power or combiantion to knock them out. Barcelona are more like Mike Tyson, they dominate, they dictate, because they can, they're good enough to. That team/boxer invariably wins.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Isn't that more of a tactical failure, Captain? Surely Wenger can tell Song and our center backs to not push forward as much. It's not like they don't have an option.

I don't think that you can call it tactical as it is a decision that the player took in a split second. It doesn't matter how much you teach them and drill them, at that given point there isn't really much that you can do from the sidelines.

At the risk of sounding trite, would Song and Diaby neglect their defensive resposibilities so readily if Capello or Mourinho were in the dugout? If every time Song made a run like that, in training or in a match, it was highlighted as a mistake, and if he knew he'd be replaced if he was incapable of demonstarting the required discipline, I think we'd see him performing far better in his role.

You just have to watch all the teams coached by Capello/Mourinho to get the answer. Its not their football philosophy..but that is why you don't see them touch any "inexperienced" team. Its much easier coaching an experienced team on the basics doos and donts then a young team.

 

[Captain]

Mikel has always been a holding playing rather than a centre-mid though. The habits he has have been developed over many developmental years.

 

[Del Boy]

I did hear something about Eboue but couldn't make it out. Did the lad get arrested for the flare? I don't know why the ban them really. Adds colour to the occasion.


You have to see this video of the flare. Shows some trouble as well but the support was quality!

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFSVRaEvrc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFSVRaEvrc</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[xcdude24]

I did hear something about Eboue but couldn't make it out. Did the lad get arrested for the flare? I don't know why the ban them really. Adds colour to the occasion.


You have to see this video of the flare. Shows some trouble as well but the support was quality!

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFSVRaEvrc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFSVRaEvrc</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yeah, there was quite a bit of aggro before it went down. Don't know if anyone was arrested, but the cops videotaped everyone in that area after it happened.

 

[MDGoonah41]

Yes, I do. Barcelona, in my opinion, will always beat United and Chelsea (not every time, but you catch my drift), because the game is on their terms and in their hands.

United and Chelsea are completely reactive to what Barcelona decide to do. Why? Because they don't have the ability to dominate them, to take 65% of the ball away from home, and make Barcelona play their game. They sit back, defend for their lives, and hope for the best. Sure it can work, but like I said; it's limiting.

Barcelona can turn up anywhere, on any giuven day, and beat anyone. That's why they are clearly the best team in Europe, and it's where Wenger is trying to get us to.

As we grow as a team and a squad, we will eventually reach a point when the players who are costing us now, given they have the requisite quality, will be able to reproduce their level in games like today, where every moment counts, and the pressure is intense, and then United and Chelsea's reactive, "we're the inferior team" approach won't work against us.

Your last paragraph is the one that invalidates the argument, because you say "given they have the requisite quality"....how do we know they do? We've won nothing in years, and we've regularly lost to United and Chelsea, both in the league and in Europe. What has been gained from those losses? What did we gain by losing to United in the CL last year? What did we take from that that we've implemented this season?

At the end of the day/season, you don't win a trophy for style points. The table (or the draw in the CL) tells you who the best team was. It doesn't matter how you got to that point. Again, no one is saying (at least Im not) that we should play like Aston Villa for 60 games a season. Im saying that the other big teams out there (United, Chelsea in our own league) know what our Plan A is. And they've developed a plan to neutralize Plan A. The best managers know what the other team is going to do, and they develop a plan to neutralize it. Playing beautiful, passing football is a great Plan A against 99% of the teams in the world. But for the other 1%, it can only help your chances by having something up your sleeve, something the other team isn't expecting. And that's not "playing negative football", its showing the other team a different look, something they weren't ready for. It gives you the upper hand, and it gives you a tactical advantage.

Have you ever seen Rocky II? Mickey gets Rocky to learn how to fight righthanded, and when the fight starts, Apollo doesn't know what to do. When he fought him the previous time, Rocky just fought southpaw. Thats what Apollo trained for. But Rocky comes out fighting righthanded, and Apollo is stunned. Hes off his game. Rocky stands in, takes his lumps, then switches to his style at the end and wins the fight. Sorry if that was a spoiler.

I don't care about points for style or any of that, what I am saying is to play like Barcelona or to be the aggressor, the dominant team, is more effective. Than to assume inferiority, and rely upon a team not being able to break you down, even though they'll prbably have 65% of the ball and have far more opportunity to.

It's only because we're not currently good enough that Chelsea and United beat us, not because of their styles, that's what I'm saying. Once our ability to perform under pressure improves, and we start to reproduce our real quality in games like today, our style will trump theirs nearly every time, because we have the ability to dominate a game between us, and they don't. At the moment they are relying on us not being good enough to break them down, when we are good enough (and we will be in time) they will have no answer, beyond hoping that our dominance doesn't translate into goals.

And I have seen Rocky II, and I would extend the analogy further, United and Chelsea are like boxers who stay on the ropes, hoping that the boxer they're facing doesn't find the right power or combiantion to knock them out. Barcelona are more like Mike Tyson, they dominate, they dictate, because they can, they're good enough to. That team/boxer invariably wins.

But you have no idea if we'll ever be good enough. What if Cesc leaves this summer? What if Arshavin leaves? Or if Song gets hurt and has to miss an entire season?

Its one thing to build a project where you know the foundation will always be stable. But in football, long term stability is rare, especially with how frequently players switch clubs. This is why I think Red Nose has an advantage. Because he built a system he was comfortable with, and he knows exactly what kind of players are required for the system. He doesn't have to wait 5 years for players to grow, he keeps his experienced players in the first team until they are ready to be displaced, then he gradually turns over the squad. Its clear we went to a 4-3-3 to try and get the most out of Cesc. What if Cesc leaves? Will we then switch to something else, build it around another player, and then switch when that player leaves? Is it always going to be a building project? What if we can't keep a core of 12-15 players together for 10 years?

And Mike Tyson went bankrupt/insane. Hes not exactly the best role model! :bounce

 

[AshburtonGhost]

You just have to watch all the teams coached by Capello/Mourinho to get the answer. Its not their football philosophy..but that is why you don't see them touch any "inexperienced" team. Its much easier coaching an experienced team on the basics doos and donts then a young team.

This is because their job/main concern is to win; it's much easier to win with an experienced team than it is to with an inexperienced team. It's like going on a long drive, why would you take the long, windy road when you can take the straight road and get there faster? Just remember Wenger chose to build the team this way, it wasn't a necessity.

 

[Double_H]

XCdude what happend near the flair ? i only saw the red and smoke . didnt see any fighting

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Mikel is a pretty average player, young, fairly inexperienced, but you dont find him out of position too often, or recklessly charging forward. The attitude and philosophy at Chelsea or Utd is far more condusive to getting the best out the team when they dont have the ball than it is at Arsenal.

Edit: I'm not saying I want us to play like Chelsea, but we need to find a better balance.

We have to remember we have been chasing games lately and that sooner or later would require pushing much forward. I think Song pushing today once we were down 1-0 was very effective as we really had them pinned and were winnig the ball back quickly. We still had numbers to defend that counter, just as we had numbers to defend the Rooney goal off the counter. We just did poor marking when going back.

 

[xcdude24]

XCdude what happend near the flair ? i only saw the red and smoke . didnt see any fighting

Was on the opposite side of the pitch, but I had a pretty good view. Looked like there was a bit of a tussle between our lot and the police, and then someone lit it off.

Flares are dangerous, but it definitely kicked off the atmosphere in our end.

 

[thegame24]

Oh and we should have started sol and bentdner like i said ffs. clichy is a liability atm.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

You just have to watch all the teams coached by Capello/Mourinho to get the answer. Its not their football philosophy..but that is why you don't see them touch any "inexperienced" team. Its much easier coaching an experienced team on the basics doos and donts then a young team.

This is because their job/main concern is to win; it's much easier to win with an experienced team than it is to with an inexperienced team. It's like going on a long drive, why would you take the long, windy road when you can take the straight road and get there faster? Just remember Wenger chose to build the team this way, it wasn't a necessity.

Yes Wenger made that choice and had the full backing of the club. Obviously we disagree (am on Wenger's camp on this one) on why he made that choice. I support his choice as i believe in the story line coming from him with regards to funding issues pre-emirates. if i didnt believe it, i would be equally troubled for being taken in this very painful trip of "how to build a professional team" from ground up.

 

[ricky1985]

I don't care about points for style or any of that, what I am saying is to play like Barcelona or to be the aggressor, the dominant team, is more effective. Than to assume inferiority, and rely upon a team not being able to break you down, even though they'll prbably have 65% of the ball and have far more opportunity to.

It's only because we're not currently good enough that Chelsea and United beat us, not because of their styles, that's what I'm saying. Once our ability to perform under pressure improves, and we start to reproduce our real quality in games like today, our style will trump theirs nearly every time, because we have the ability to dominate a game between us, and they don't. At the moment they are relying on us not being good enough to break them down, when we are good enough (and we will be in time) they will have no answer, beyond hoping that our dominance doesn't translate into goals.

And I have seen Rocky II, and I would extend the analogy further, United and Chelsea are like boxers who stay on the ropes, hoping that the boxer they're facing doesn't find the right power or combiantion to knock them out. Barcelona are more like Mike Tyson, they dominate, they dictate, because they can, they're good enough to. That team/boxer invariably wins.

But you have no idea if we'll ever be good enough. What if Cesc leaves this summer? What if Arshavin leaves? Or if Song gets hurt and has to miss an entire season?

Its one thing to build a project where you know the foundation will always be stable. But in football, long term stability is rare, especially with how frequently players switch clubs. This is why I think Red Nose has an advantage. Because he built a system he was comfortable with, and he knows exactly what kind of players are required for the system. He doesn't have to wait 5 years for players to grow, he keeps his experienced players in the first team until they are ready to be displaced, then he gradually turns over the squad. Its clear we went to a 4-3-3 to try and get the most out of Cesc. What if Cesc leaves? Will we then switch to something else, build it around another player, and then switch when that player leaves? Is it always going to be a building project? What if we can't keep a core of 12-15 players together for 10 years?

And Mike Tyson went bankrupt/insane. Hes not exactly the best role model! :bounce

Mike Tyson was absolutely amazing when his head was right though!

There are a number of factors that could make Wenger's approach near impossible, I mentioned them all in a long post earlier that Big Poppa quoted.

It's the approach he has taken though, and in time I believe it will prove fruitful. I think Wenger would see replacing Clichy, Song, Ramsey, Diaby, Denilson, Walcott, Nasri, Vela, Bendtner etc. At this point as throwing away all the experience they've gained at the expense of results in the last 2 seasons. And that unless you've got stupid money to spend, signing players ahead of them would be good only in the short term, because once these young players gain the required experience they will be amongst the best players in the world.

I don't disagree with him overall, although I do disagree with his assessments of some of our young players, but in the main I see where he is trying to take us, and I can also see why he believes this squad will be so good in the future. We're already extremely close now.

 

[Nela]

Oh and we should have started sol and bentdner like i said ffs. clichy is a liability atm.

I agree.

Not dropping Clichy, and playing Theo made me really, really dissapointed in Wenger. Why is he so scared of dropping players who are obviously out of form/****?

And the Theo situation seems completely reversed from a couple of seasons ago. I remember when fans were clamouring for Wenger to start Theo, and Wenger stood firm and didn't(rightly so, Theo was nowhere near ready). But for the last year and half it's the opposite. He often starts Theo no matter how **** he is.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Oh and we should have started sol and bentdner like i said ffs. clichy is a liability atm.

I agree.

Not dropping Clichy, and playing Theo made me really, really dissapointed in Wenger. Why is he so scared of dropping players who are obviously out of form/s**t?

And the Theo situation seems completely reversed from a couple of seasons ago. I remember when fans were clamouring for Wenger to start Theo, and Wenger stood firm and didn't(rightly so, Theo was nowhere near ready). But for the last year and half it's the opposite. He often starts Theo no matter how s**t he is.

When did Theo start a game again besides today? And dropping Clichy for Traore? Wasnt Traore in very bad shape in form before being dropped? Well well you cant pls everyone

 

[Nela]

The Theo comment was in regards to more than this season. And I think Eboue was by far the more tactical choice and I'd like to see Wenger be more tactical in general. And dropping Clichy wouldn't necessarily mean Traore would play.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

The Theo comment was in regards to more than this season. And I think Eboue was by far the more tactical choice and I'd like to see Wenger be more tactical in general. And dropping Clichy wouldn't necessarily mean Traore would play.

I also was hoping Eboue starts on the top right. If you drop Clichy and Traore is not an option than who are you suggesting?

 

[outlaw_member]

So where do we find this "calmness" you refer to?

A successful team understands its opposition, understands the strengths and weaknesses, and then develops a plan. Often times, they develop multiple plans. You never go into battle without a plan B. At this point, Plan A is all out attack at all times. There is no plan B. Teams like Chelsea and Man United have to be approached differently than teams like Burnley and West Ham. Yet we seem to take the same approach in every match.

Arsenal are a team that play much better when in front, because it forces the other team to try and come out more, to be more adventurous and attacking, and then it opens up space, particularly in the middle third, to attack and exploit. At 0-0, or down a goal, teams don't really have incentive to come out of their shells, especially in the first 30 minutes of a match. You're right, we do lack calmness and composure, but I haven't seen a ton of progress there. I see two examples; the Liverpool game and the Bolton game. But neither of those teams have the tactical acumen of United or Chelsea.

This is why Im begging that we switch to a more pragmatic/patient approach and formation. The current team doesn't have the talent/experience/magic beans to play an all or nothing 4-3-3 against the top teams in this league.

The calmness comes from experience and it isn't so much about being 'calm' but rather about making the right decisions at key moments. In that respect, most of our team is guilty including our very best players like Cesc, Vermaelen, Song etc. They need to be mature and understand that going forward at all costs is not an intelligent game plan, though Wenger is a large part of the reason. Sometimes a game needs to be slowed down so the team can rest on the ball, which is supposed a major plus of the possession football style. We don't handle the ball under pressure no way near well enough and our naive all out nature, more or less puts the defence in an unteneble position.

In regards to the formation, our players aren't tactically mature enough to make the 4-3-3 work against the big teams but it has been a revelation against the smaller sides.

 

[Kenyonhater]

CHELSEA ARSENAL

Possession - Chelsea 44% Arsenal 56%
Attempts on target - Chelsea 3 Arsenal 6
Attempts off target - Chelsea 6 Arsenal 8
Corners - Chelsea 4 Arsenal 8

Not many teams will come away from Stamford Bridge with stats like that.
Failure to take chances and naive defensive errors are killing us.