EPL | Fulham vs Arsenal | 24/08/13 | 12:45 PM

[Jury]

That whoscored rating for Ramsey is shocking

Also Playmaker - the start of your post was great, but it went all over the place in the 2nd half of it. Let's not kid ourselves, we were great today but we're still 2-3 first team quality players away from being where we want to be

We've all seen us have games like today only to go on to lose the next game that we should be winning

To the point in bold, that is true. Wouldn't you say the game we usually lose would be today..

Not really. Fulham didnt have a CF on the pitch until they brought Bent on late....and scored. Up until then, Jol had got it completely wrong and played right into our hands with backward-thinking Berba, as sublime as he can be, seriously lacking pace and running everywhere but on goal.

 

[Penn_]

Would still rather have a more disciplined midfielder in the trio. The fluid movement can work great at times but it has glaring weaknesses that have been present in every match. Could be the players getting a feel for each others movement but against better sides we'd get torn apart.

 

[k24bfan]

Expecting Rosicky to pick up a muscle injury in the next two weeks. Midfield will get exposed if we play Santi, Jack , and Ramsey all year. We need to bring in a wide player with Chambo out for a good period of time.

 

[ASAP Berg]

I gotta say on the counter we are a lot more devastating with Cazorla in the middle and Podolski on the left.

This is because with Cazorla/Ramsey/Rosicky on the ball in the middle with Giroud drawing defenders having that immediate threat on each side is far more dangerous than only Walcott. With Cazorla playing LW it means Gibbs really has to push further forward and provide that width.

Still need a better LW/RW who can dribble to help against organised defenses. Obviously Di Maria would be pretty perfect, pacy and direct on the counter but can really cut in and dribble through in the box against teams sitting back.

 

[redanddread]

arguable. adebayor had a great season numbers wise, but i'd say walcott's close to that level. same situation - a player not visibly youtstanding in any way, but gets the job done and puts up end product. i'd say actually, that theo's goals are more important than ade beating up teams 7-0. rvp was injured half the time. edu as a backup was great tho, until injury. i'd say podolski in that backup role isn't too shabby, different types but you get my drift, he's deadly when provided a chance to score.

we still don't have a fabregas so yes, that midfield that included hleb was tasty. i'd actually say that our defence is better these days, what with arteta and mertesacker adding maturity and calmness, as well as depth in LB/CB

If you're making the same point as Chappers, OK. But as is this team is not even in the same class as the 07-08 team.

I think you're going to be surprised-this team is a lot better than many here think. It's a brave team that is starting click.

 

[Cruisio]

I'd say it was exactly as good as people think

A team worthy of reaching top 4 if they can play well consistently

I'm personally bored of that and it needs at least TWO extra players of "top top quality" to realistically jump up a level

 

[redanddread]

I'd say it was exactly as good as people think

A team worthy of reaching top 4 if they can play well consistently

I'm personally bored of that and it needs at least TWO extra players of "top top quality" to realistically jump up a level

Which people? I'd certainly believe those that have a clue rather than those that think they do. Anyway, the proof is on the pitch, so we will see.

 

[outlaw_member]

The current side isn't a patch on the 07/08 side. The team from that season was so good, it would have arguably been Wenger's greatest ever team had we won the title. We were unbeaten in all competitions until late December. The Fabregas, Rosicky and Hleb trio was was truly magnificent. Our tie over two legs against Milan was quite possible our greatest ever European performance. Believing that this current side is even remotely close only suggests a lack of viewing of the 07/08 season.

 

[RandomHero84]

I think we look a much better prospect when Rosicky is in our starting lineup. I wish he has more end product though, but he is so dynamic. Was a favourite of mine back in the day. Özil is the player i would liken most to his style.

 

[Cruisio]

I'd say it was exactly as good as people think

A team worthy of reaching top 4 if they can play well consistently

I'm personally bored of that and it needs at least TWO extra players of "top top quality" to realistically jump up a level

Which people? I'd certainly believe those that have a clue rather than those that think they do. Anyway, the proof is on the pitch, so we will see.

If you asked people on here, most of them would say we have a team capable of challenging for 4th place

So i'm really not sure how the team are better than "people think" on here.

We watch them more than any set of fans in the world, i'd say they're as good as we believe them to be

 

[onetowatch]

I gotta say on the counter we are a lot more devastating with Cazorla in the middle and Podolski on the left.

This is because with Cazorla/Ramsey/Rosicky on the ball in the middle with Giroud drawing defenders having that immediate threat on each side is far more dangerous than only Walcott. With Cazorla playing LW it means Gibbs really has to push further forward and provide that width.

Still need a better LW/RW who can dribble to help against organised defenses. Obviously Di Maria would be pretty perfect, pacy and direct on the counter but can really cut in and dribble through in the box against teams sitting back.

Agree with this. The counter attacking potential in this team is scary.

 

[Anzac]

I gotta say on the counter we are a lot more devastating with Cazorla in the middle and Podolski on the left.

This is because with Cazorla/Ramsey/Rosicky on the ball in the middle with Giroud drawing defenders having that immediate threat on each side is far more dangerous than only Walcott. With Cazorla playing LW it means Gibbs really has to push further forward and provide that width.

Still need a better LW/RW who can dribble to help against organised defenses. Obviously Di Maria would be pretty perfect, pacy and direct on the counter but can really cut in and dribble through in the box against teams sitting back.

Agree with this. The counter attacking potential in this team is scary.

However in order to realise this potential we'd not only need someone to run at defences,
but more so we'd NEED a change in philosophy regarding our current passing style - we'd NEED to look to exploit space on & off the ball.

 

[The_Playmaker]

I gotta say on the counter we are a lot more devastating with Cazorla in the middle and Podolski on the left.

This is because with Cazorla/Ramsey/Rosicky on the ball in the middle with Giroud drawing defenders having that immediate threat on each side is far more dangerous than only Walcott. With Cazorla playing LW it means Gibbs really has to push further forward and provide that width.

Still need a better LW/RW who can dribble to help against organised defenses. Obviously Di Maria would be pretty perfect, pacy and direct on the counter but can really cut in and dribble through in the box against teams sitting back.

Agree with this. The counter attacking potential in this team is scary.

However in order to realise this potential we'd not only need someone to run at defences,
but more so we'd NEED a change in philosophy regarding our current passing style - we'd NEED to look to exploit space on & off the ball.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Anzac]

However in order to realise this potential we'd not only need someone to run at defences,
but more so we'd NEED a change in philosophy regarding our current passing style - we'd NEED to look to exploit space on & off the ball.

What do you mean by this?

Probably WAY off topic but...

1. Our style of play since the 3 man midfield in 2009 has been to promote the ball by passing direct to feet, rather than into space as in the previous 442 style - essentially we are static when receiving the pass;

2. We need someone to run at defenders when on the ball to unlock deep defences;

3. To mount an effective counter attacking play we need players to make runs to both create and then exploit space on & off the ball,
AND we need playmakers who will then look to play the ball into that space for those players to run onto. Rosicky excels at creating space, whilst IMO Bendtner was good at exploiting it in partnership with another ST.

DB10 was the ideal advanced playmaker for a fluid counter attacking style, but he'd NOT have been as dynamic if he was required to pass to feet. Our Spanish playmakers are ideal for this possession passing style, but IMO are too slow/deliberate in passing style to exploit space, and we no longer have anyone looking to make committed runs to attack space off the ball - they get into space and then wait for an expected pass.
Walcott does attack space but only when around the area & in behind the defence, which is not often enough to be effective.
I'd like Walcott to make angled runs from deeper OFF the ball so that the defence can see him coming and are forced to adjust BEFORE he gets to the last man at pace. At the very least it should cause the defence to shift which should create space elsewhere to be exploited - more so IF we have someone like di Maria who can exploit space on the ball AND hit a defence splitting cross ball and hit the man running into space.

 

[outlaw_member]

Counter-attacking football has been the way forward for us for the past few seasons now. However, Wenger doesn't seem convinced enough to relinquish his desire for possession football.

 

[Anzac]

Counter-attacking football has been the way forward for us for the past few seasons now. However, Wenger doesn't seem convinced enough to relinquish his desire for possession football.

Ideally we should have changed style, roles & patterns the summer we sold Fabregas and Nasri,
as the key elements were no longer present.

Me thinks that AW views possession as a preferred alternative to defence or needing to win the ball back. Nothing wrong in theory it's just that our execution in attack is ****e and the team lacks balance.

 

[The_Playmaker]

However in order to realise this potential we'd not only need someone to run at defences,
but more so we'd NEED a change in philosophy regarding our current passing style - we'd NEED to look to exploit space on & off the ball.

What do you mean by this?

Probably WAY off topic but...

1. Our style of play since the 3 man midfield in 2009 has been to promote the ball by passing direct to feet, rather than into space as in the previous 442 style - essentially we are static when receiving the pass;

2. We need someone to run at defenders when on the ball to unlock deep defences;

3. To mount an effective counter attacking play we need players to make runs to both create and then exploit space on & off the ball,
AND we need playmakers who will then look to play the ball into that space for those players to run onto. Rosicky excels at creating space, whilst IMO Bendtner was good at exploiting it in partnership with another ST.

DB10 was the ideal advanced playmaker for a fluid counter attacking style, but he'd NOT have been as dynamic if he was required to pass to feet. Our Spanish playmakers are ideal for this possession passing style, but IMO are too slow/deliberate in passing style to exploit space, and we no longer have anyone looking to make committed runs to attack space off the ball - they get into space and then wait for an expected pass.
Walcott does attack space but only when around the area & in behind the defence, which is not often enough to be effective.
I'd like Walcott to make angled runs from deeper OFF the ball so that the defence can see him coming and are forced to adjust BEFORE he gets to the last man at pace. At the very least it should cause the defence to shift which should create space elsewhere to be exploited - more so IF we have someone like di Maria who can exploit space on the ball AND hit a defence splitting cross ball and hit the man running into space.

I agree. However, when you talk about past times you have to take into account that football changes as time goes on. Like every sport, new things are introduced. Coaching advances just as there are breakthroughs in sports science and different methods of training.

There is far less space to play now as teams rarely push up and play offside. I really do believe people are stuck in a time warp where they envisage a through ball cutting a team open and our striker running through on goal with a one on one opportunity a few times throughout the game. That doesn't happen near half as much as it used to. Teams are fully aware of Arsenal and how we play.

Now the problem I see is that there are different styles and different philosophies. They ALL have weaknesses and strengths, but it is the players who determine how effective a specific system can be. Take Bolton under Allardyce for example, they played very direct and very long. They required a target man like Davies, players like Nolan to feed off the second ball and players to also win the second ball. If they didn't have the players to win that second ball, they could not execute the style effectively.

It is the same with us. I put a lot of the lack of cohesion in our play last season to new faces and a pressure to get instant results. Players coming to a new league and having to adapt. We thus couldn't play the way we wanted to. I think people underestimate how difficult it is to play the way we do. There is a reason nobody else in England can play our style of football. It requires every player to be on the same wave length and that just isn't possible with new additions. Yet the team that played Fulham is the same group of players we had last season, but the way the passed that ball was truly excellent.

With different players and systems the only way to win a game of football outright is to impose your style and authority on the game. Whether it be by long ball, defence first and counter attacking, or by possession play, it has to be done. The best way to do this is to make sure you have a range of weapons and that is why I believe we struggle when teams get it spot on tactically. I agree completely with your 2). We NEED a runner. We cannot always counter, because that is how teams will play against us. They will give us the ball as we commit the majority of our team forward and then they will look to hit us on the break. Currently we rely on passing the ball and unlocking teams through passing. We have a weapon in the form of Walcott's pace but that can be nullified if a team sits deep. We have Cazorla who can be marked out of the game against good opposition. What we don't have is a runner. That will be too much for any team to nullify and still have a chance of imposing their game on us. It just wouldn't be possible.

This is when I come to your 3). Space. That is our problem at the moment. We have a problem creating space when a team sets up in a certain way, which is why I don't understand people calling for the signing of Özil. We don't need any-more playmakers. We have enough. A playmaker only becomes effective if he has movement ahead of him. Whether the ball is played to feet or into space, if there is no run there is no pass. There is no such thing as seeing a pass, you see the run!

We have a runner off the ball in Walcott and Giroud's movement is also very good. We have players who can find space in-between the lines. Rosicky in particular is very good as this. However, we lack a runner of the ball. If we had a runner on the left hand side like Di Maria who could beat 2 players, how would it be possible to man mark Cazorla? When you beat a man you draw people out of position as the next man will have to close the runner down at some point. If that man is marking Cazorla he will still have to go towards the ball. That instantly creates space for Cazorla and in turn Walcott on the opposite flank. However, for all of that to be effective we have to pass the right way. We have to pass inbetween the lines. We do that more than any team in the league when we play properly. Last season a lot of our possession was side ways. We didn't have the confidence to go forward, but already that has changed this season.

When people tell me Ramsey made 89 out of 90 passes today, my first question is 'How many of them were forward?', because that is how we play and that is the only way we are effective. 20 passes forward are better than 60 passes side ways. However, for us to really excel this season, we need a runner. We can get away with not bringing in a centre forward if we brought in Di Maria.

 

[MDGoonah41]

@wengerknowsbest 24 Aug
The final score from today's match is Fulham undisclosed Arsenal undisclosed. Thank you for your continued support.

 

[onetowatch]

Ramsey is our runner from midfield but I agree we need one at left wing. Can Podolski not fulfil that role? Or even Ox? Cazorla's best position is CAM where he can pull the strings. He was imperious there on Saturday.