PL: Arsenal vs Hull City | 27/09/08

[McIntyre]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

I don't understand the Gallas bashing to be honest...our entire team cannot defend from set peices. From Almunia to Fabregas. Gallas get's a lot of critisim for the teams woeful attitude to set peice defending. It all starts at the keeper and to be quite frank - Almunia is junk.

Thing is, if you're keeper's sh*t then it falls to your central defenders to organise the defence and deal with set pieces.

We might take Reina, van der Sar and Cech over Almunia but much of the reason they don't get in any trouble is because of the defence that's in front of them. Reina and van der Sar can be extremely dodgy at times. van der Sar did it against Liverpool, Reina dropped a simple cross against Everton which could've been a goal. I haven't watched every Chelsea game so Cech may have made a mistake or two, I don't know.

As sh*t as a keeper may be, that sh*tness is accentuated if his defenders don't give him any protection. Jens used to try and command the area but often made a mess of it and often got on the wrong side of the defenders in the process. If Almunia isn't confident coming for the ball I'm sure that will've been discussed in which case the onus falls on Gallas and Toure to organise the defence effectively. Which they repeatedly have not done.

When you're captaining from centre back you are bound to take flak for any goal that goes in. That should be his domain. He should command it. And that in turn translates to his other defenders and those from midfield and attack who come back to defend.

But Gallas doesn't seem to shoulder the blame for any of the goals that go in, even if he is directly responsible. He always seems to turn on someone else. Nor does he seem to organise the defence effectively before set pieces.

If Almunia's limitations are known then the defence has to compensate. We don't seem to be able to do so competently and much of that responsibility falls at Gallas's feet. He's the leader of the defence as well as the team so he needs to start leading by example.

 

[_scorpion_]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

I don't understand the Gallas bashing to be honest...our entire team cannot defend from set peices. From Almunia to Fabregas. Gallas get's a lot of critisim for the teams woeful attitude to set peice defending. It all starts at the keeper and to be quite frank - Almunia is junk.

Thing is, if you're keeper's sh*t then it falls to your central defenders to organise the defence and deal with set pieces.

We might take Reina, van der Sar and Cech over Almunia but much of the reason they don't get in any trouble is because of the defence that's in front of them. Reina and van der Sar can be extremely dodgy at times. van der Sar did it against Liverpool, Reina dropped a simple cross against Everton which could've been a goal. I haven't watched every Chelsea game so Cech may have made a mistake or two, I don't know.

As sh*t as a keeper may be, that sh*tness is accentuated if his defenders don't give him any protection. Jens used to try and command the area but often made a mess of it and often got on the wrong side of the defenders in the process. If Almunia isn't confident coming for the ball I'm sure that will've been discussed in which case the onus falls on Gallas and Touré to organise the defence effectively. Which they repeatedly have not done.

When you're captaining from centre back you are bound to take flak for any goal that goes in. That should be his domain. He should command it. And that in turn translates to his other defenders and those from midfield and attack who come back to defend.

But Gallas doesn't seem to shoulder the blame for any of the goals that go in, even if he is directly responsible. He always seems to turn on someone else. Nor does he seem to organise the defence effectively before set pieces.

If Almunia's limitations are known then the defence has to compensate. We don't seem to be able to do so competently and much of that responsibility falls at Gallas's feet. He's the leader of the defence as well as the team so he needs to start leading by example.

It's too simple to say if your keeper is ****, your central defence needs to deal with it.

Your coach needs to deal with the **** keeper to begin with.

Then he needs to deal with the 'short defenders' in the team instead of whinging about it after the game.

Why should Gallas shoulder more blame than the rest of the defenders? They were all caught napping and if you looked at the goal in the Fulham match - that was a set peice by Fulham designed to place thier tallest player against our shortest defensive marker. It worked a treat. Had nothing to do with Gallas making an error in judgement.

The second goal yesterday was simply a dogs breakfast defensive display. Nobody attacks the ball - they all wait to react to whatever the attackers throw at them....it was the same against Bolton too. Fabregas needs to worry more about the ball than his hair!

Don't be surprised to see Djourou, Bendtner, Song and possibly Vela drafted in for Toure, RVP, Denilson & Eboue.

Overall - it was the attitude at the start that brought us undone.

Forget the defensive issue for the moment - the attitude at the start was a disgrace. Nobody apart from Theo seemed urgent. Granted he made mistakes, but at least he started the match ready for a battle. Everyone else was sleep walking. We should have been 3 up before Hull had teh chance to respond.

 

[DC Gunner]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

I don't understand the Gallas bashing to be honest...our entire team cannot defend from set peices. From Almunia to Fabregas. Gallas get's a lot of critisim for the teams woeful attitude to set peice defending. It all starts at the keeper and to be quite frank - Almunia is junk.

Thing is, if you're keeper's sh*t then it falls to your central defenders to organise the defence and deal with set pieces.

We might take Reina, van der Sar and Cech over Almunia but much of the reason they don't get in any trouble is because of the defence that's in front of them. Reina and van der Sar can be extremely dodgy at times. van der Sar did it against Liverpool, Reina dropped a simple cross against Everton which could've been a goal. I haven't watched every Chelsea game so Cech may have made a mistake or two, I don't know.

As sh*t as a keeper may be, that sh*tness is accentuated if his defenders don't give him any protection. Jens used to try and command the area but often made a mess of it and often got on the wrong side of the defenders in the process. If Almunia isn't confident coming for the ball I'm sure that will've been discussed in which case the onus falls on Gallas and Touré to organise the defence effectively. Which they repeatedly have not done.

When you're captaining from centre back you are bound to take flak for any goal that goes in. That should be his domain. He should command it. And that in turn translates to his other defenders and those from midfield and attack who come back to defend.

But Gallas doesn't seem to shoulder the blame for any of the goals that go in, even if he is directly responsible. He always seems to turn on someone else. Nor does he seem to organise the defence effectively before set pieces.

If Almunia's limitations are known then the defence has to compensate. We don't seem to be able to do so competently and much of that responsibility falls at Gallas's feet. He's the leader of the defence as well as the team so he needs to start leading by example.

It's too simple to say if your keeper is s**t, your central defence needs to deal with it.

Your coach needs to deal with the s**t keeper to begin with.

Well, the manager is busy saying we don't have size after he sent Senderos to Milan while signing no one to fix it

Don't be surprised to see Djourou, Bendtner, Song and possibly Vela drafted in for Touré, RVP, Denilson & Eboue.

I would be if all of the above happened at once.

Overall - it was the attitude at the start that brought us undone.

The skipper's job is to talk his mates straight !

 

[McIntyre]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

It's too simple to say if your keeper is s**t, your central defence needs to deal with it.

Your coach needs to deal with the s**t keeper to begin with.

Then he needs to deal with the 'short defenders' in the team instead of whinging about it after the game.

Why should Gallas shoulder more blame than the rest of the defenders? They were all caught napping and if you looked at the goal in the Fulham match - that was a set peice by Fulham designed to place thier tallest player against our shortest defensive marker. It worked a treat. Had nothing to do with Gallas making an error in judgement.

The second goal yesterday was simply a dogs breakfast defensive display. Nobody attacks the ball - they all wait to react to whatever the attackers throw at them....it was the same against Bolton too. Fabregas needs to worry more about the ball than his hair!

I'm in complete agreement that Arsène should have sorted out the goalkeeper and the defender situation during the summer. I'm furious that he backtracked on his statements about sorting out the defence only to encounter exactly the same problems twice in the first six games of this season.

However, like I said with the whole van der Sar/Reina example, every defence has their weak point and that needs to be compensated for regardless of the players available.

Gallas takes the blame more than the other defenders because simply by being captain he has the authority to organise the defence to compensate for problems or opposition tactics. If Gallas is confronted with Hangeland and can't deal with him then he as the leader of the defence, let alone the captain, needs to re-arrange. But I feel he's too arrogant to admit his own failings and delegate responsibility, despite the fact that had Toure let Hangeland get away from him for the Fulham goal Gallas would've torn strips out of him.

The simple fact is that you can only defend with the players you have available and it is down to Gallas as captain to organise that defence effectively. If the defence was organised well you could pick out individuals to criticise in the event of a mistake, but since it isn't even disciplined the criticism has to fall at the door of Gallas.

Gallas quite obviously doesn't inspire confidence in his fellow defenders, and if he does it's through a misguided arrogance rather than through his leadership skills and defensive ability.

He's out of his depth. If only Arsène had realised that and replaced him with a real leader.

 

[_scorpion_]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

The skipper can talk all he wants....the players are paid well enough to have the attitude spot on from the get go.

If they required more motivation aside from being top of the ladder & the fact that they face a stern November, then they are not cut out for the EPL.

The Gallas bashing is pointless because it starts with the coach & the attitude of the entire team - not just the captain.

You don't need a 'C' behind your name to lead the team - players like Toure, Fabregas, Ade & RVP are old enough and well respected enough to lead the team.

Gallas has had his issues at Arsenal, but he is not the root of all our problems. This complacement, lazy,'going through the motions' attitude has been at the club a lot longer than Gallas - and it comes down to the coach.

Personally, I would have brought in Vela, Bendtner, Song & Djouro for the Hull match just to show the players that there is no 'first 11'.

In other words - you get a crack in the run on side if you perform.

A tough coach would have taken that stand......but after 12 years, it's hard to teach an old dog new ticks.

The players lacked intensity from the start & it was the same against Fulham & Bolton to be honest.

The coach must put the rocket under his players & force them to fear losing thier spot in the run on side.....Fabregas should be given 2 more matches - if his form does not return , he should be benched.

Our problem in recent years is our inability to get motivated for 'smaller matches'. Then when the matches against the 'big 3' don't go to plan - we mope about like a wounded animal for 3 for 4 days whinging about our luck.

That comes from the manager. The self loathing needs to stop and the players need to earn thier spots in the side (as well as thier pay cheques).

The **** arse attitude before ANY match needs to be kicked out of the players once and for all.

 

[banduan]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Personally, I would have brought in Vela, Bendtner, Song & Djouro for the Hull match just to show the players that there is no 'first 11'.

I suspect you are about to get your wish. Arsène has implied we'll be wielding the axe.

Arsène wouldn't have known they'd perform like they did against Hull, but now with hindsight, I think RVP is off for Bendy, Eboue off for Wilshere or Ramsey, Gallas or Toure off for Djorou, Cesc is hanging by a thread only because of his golden boy status, his place under thread by a very impressive Ramsey.

 

[McIntyre]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Totally agree _scorpion_.

I'm not Gallas bashing for fun, I just don't think he's a good enough leader for a top Premiership team.

But, ultimately, it is down to the manager and the individual players to provide the desire and will to win that gets results.

A captain can only enhance that. If it's not there in the first place then it takes a truly great captain to drag it out of them.

I too was extremely disappointed with the attitude of the players and my posts further back in this thread and on other threads reflect that.

 

[Biggus]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

The Gallas bashing is pointless because it starts with the coach & the attitude of the entire team - not just the captain.

I totally agree, it all comes back to Arsène "we don't need any more players trophies aren't important so long as you play the game the right way we don't buy stars we make them" Wenger. Almunia, Gallas et al are doing the best job they can- It's not their fault that they're simply not up to their respective tasks and are hopelessly out of their depth.

I suspect you are about to get your wish. Arsène has implied we'll be wielding the axe.

Too little too late, the points are gone up north, the time to wield the axe and read the riot act was at half time.
I hated that dirty little troll Mourinho, but boy could he wield an axe.

 

[AnthonyG]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Biggus, you didn't read the new rules mate - no one can reply to your post in the RvP thread. :wink: I was going to say that the oil and water combination there reminds me of another, but it escapes me for the moment ...

 

[Biggus]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Oh, we've locked the player threads have we.

 

[Shadow Moses]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

When will Gallas learn? - Steve McManaman

There was no challenge again, we thought Gallas was picking him up – it was exactly like Kevin Davies’ goal last week.


Ye, Gallas deserves every bit of bashing.

 

[_scorpion_]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Bash all they want, my point is that the Manager has a lot to answer for.

He said our defence needed to be addressed, then did nothing about it.

He kept Gallas as captain (which in my view was the correct decision, but I can understand why others don't agree).

And he allows his key player to make comments about 'trophies not mattering'?

Do you think Ferguson would let anyone at United say that before a game?

This beautiful youth team football notion has gone to his head and if your looking at someone to blame - its the manager.

Gallas is merely a sympton.....the cause is Arsène.

When I say don't waste your time on Gallas, I don't mean to sound like I am defending the guy because I'm not. The problem with our football side is that we are a fair weather moody team that loves the sunshine & the accolades for playing pretty football - because our Manager thinks that is OK.

We are a by product / extension of our manager and it 'doesn't matter' if we don't win trophies.....were told.

Personally it sucks like ****.

 

[Biggus]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Gallas is merely a symptom.....the cause is Arsène.

And that my friends is the problem in a nutshell....'nuff said.

 

[algunner]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

I think the team had a bad attitude that we will score anytime and win the game. What makes it worse is thay had so much confidence that they will win without knowing that they had to fight to defend. It was a mentallity that we will score anytime but they will not score!!!!! But Hull score two great goals and had everyone defending everytime behind the ball. It was just sick!!!!!! The best thing about this loss is that the team should know with no fight against anyone (Home or Away) I mean anyone we will loose. There is no we are a big team favores!!!! It would be a reminder. RVP has reversed to Ade wastefulness of previous yrs. For the first time I thing RVP should be BENCHED and be used as an Impact Sub. Walcott atleast will start now every big game even though his defence was sh******tyyy that lead to Hull goal.

 

[Smartly Dressed Morris]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

It's a worry when players start saying trophies don't matter as well.

Oh well as long as we entertain......

 

[DC Gunner]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

It's a worry when players start saying trophies don't matter as well.

Oh well as long as we entertain......

And entertainment is business, and business is money and money is a balance sheet.

I need to stop before I start thinking like that dumb Platini :argue

 

[the dawn raids]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

Wouldn't say 2 great goals. More like one great goal and poor defending.

and the great goal was poorly defended anyway.

 

[the dawn raids]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

we were still good enough to win yesterday; could have been 3-4 up by half time. We didn't play well but the wastefulness in front of goal is what cost us and is unforgivable.

absolutely. and again, it comes back to continuity and playing the hot hand. i dont see any point in having two **** how strikers and not starting at least one of them. let alone the travesty that is starting eboue over vela (and yes i know hes seen predominately as a striker but he ended up playing out there the last 20 minutes and we all know wenger will give him time there).

 

[stuart]

Re: Arsenal vs Hull City - Premier League - 27/09/08 - 17.30

All ive seen of the game are the two goals, havent even seen a replay. Looked like to well taken goals. Heard the score and just laughed. My local team won on Saturday so i should have known what was coming Ignoring the defeat has been a real blessing. I can take the abuse so much more easily now!