Arsenal v Liverpool; Ratings

[banduan]

I'm finished with Almunia theres nothing more to be said about him.

get what ya mean biggus, he's had his fun in the sun

 

[Biggus]

What I was saying is that ratings are based on performances and not results, and this is a ratings thread. I understand perfectly that results are what really count.

And we won M & D and this must be reflected in the ratings no matter how some may have interpreted the game the result is the result, the lads went out to do a job and the job was done- it should be all good then.

 

[lagos]

A lot of people still undermine the role that injuries have played in his subpar performances, both from a physical and a mental aspect. Walcott in the form he had prior to the U21 euros was electric. He would have walked into most teams in the league.

Klaus, I generally agree with you on players, for instance you were one of the few who could see the talent in Diaby in his darkest days when most others were on his back, however as I have long being arguing, this boy is a lemon and on this occasion I believe you are wrong. Injuries play a part in hampering a players development ofcourse but in Theo's case my belief is this is beyond injuries as an excuse.

So far from undermining the role of injuries, I think the issue is people are too far gone and emotionally invested in the romantic idea of Theo as our "next big thing" to see what's before their eyes and people are overplaying the "form" he had last season. Yes he made improvements last season but 1) they were improvements from a very low base and 2) a lot of that was based on his performance relative to the most inept midfield in my 20 years as an Arsenal fan whereby just running made things happen and while giving credit to him, it's like in the country of the blind, the one-eyed man being King. However with a fully functioning midfield his inadequacies are once again coming to the fore and it's not soley down to "bad form" but because he can't play to their tune because he isn't at that that level. So yes the boys is lacking inconfidence, but how much of that is due to injuries and lack of "form" and how much of that is due to him realising he's back this time to a fully functioning midfield, where his singular asset is not enough to make him shine?

 

[Klaus Daimler]

I just think we're seeing this one differently, lagos. I mean, it's not hard to understand the problem a lot of people have with Theo. He was expensive, is constantly being overhyped, can't compete with some of our more gifted players on a technical level and on top of that he's always injured. The few times he's high on confidence he looks great but more often than not it's just as lacking as his first touch.

What he does have, that few others possess in this squad, is instinct. I think Walcott is a potentially great goalscorer. And he's able to dribble and carry the ball at high speeds, cut inside, challenge opponents. He's not afraid to run at defenders. When we changed to a 4-3-3 formation I thought it was going to be particularly fitting for four players: Diaby, Fabregas, Wilshere and Walcott. Theo's just the type of player I'd love to have in one of the wide roles in the attack to mix things up. Whether he'll make it here or not is still up in the air but looking at him right now he'd still be one of my main attacking candidates to strengthen the squad with. It's hard to come by several of the skills he's got.

 

[arsenalfc0719]

If by mix things up you mean run into opponents, losing the ball, or running to the corner and sending in a cross into the hands of our opponents goalkeeper, then yes, Theo has the ability to do that.

This kid is fast, but he has no football intelligence or technical ability to make it count.

He can be a regular in the reserves, but he's not good enough to be starting games for our first team.

 

[Humble Rex]

Agree about Bendtner. He made a whole lot of difference simply by being there today. Intelligent play as always too. He'll improve by time.

I didn't find Walcott that terrible today, by the way, but each to his own I guess. It's natural for players to make mistakes. He looked more encouraging than the last time he was brought on. There's an excellent player in him that wants to get out, but has been restricted by severe injuries. As usual people show off a blatant lack of understanding for the damaging effect all that time out can have from a physical viewpoint - even long after the player is back in action.

Klaus, for me I am not so sure Theo has what it takes to make it here. There are many flaws in his game, and they were there before his injuries.

I have no idea whether he'll ultimately make it here or not. Things like that aren't solely determined by talent and potential anyway. A lot of people still undermine the role that injuries have played in his subpar performances, both from a physical and a mental aspect. Walcott in the form he had prior to the U21 euros was electric. He would have walked into most teams in the league.

You kind of chose to ignore the part I find the most interesting and that I would like to discuss!
I agree with you, the kid is, well a kid, and has potential, (read pace). In fairness he can also make brilliant runs. However, he has been absolutely horrible since he came back. Woeful first touch, doesn´t take people on, loses the ball way too much, horrible decision making, makes no impact what so ever. I can´t imagine it looks differently in training, but then again it might. My point is: Is Wenger right in using the first team for Theo to get back to something that looks like form? For me, he shouldn´t be anywhere close to getting games for the first team on current form. He should practise with the first team and play for the reserves until he actually proves he can be of use for us. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Humble Rex]

I just think we're seeing this one differently, lagos. I mean, it's not hard to understand the problem a lot of people have with Theo. He was expensive, is constantly being overhyped, can't compete with some of our more gifted players on a technical level and on top of that he's always injured. The few times he's high on confidence he looks great but more often than not it's just as lacking as his first touch.

What he does have, that few others possess in this squad, is instinct. I think Walcott is a potentially great goalscorer. And he's able to dribble and carry the ball at high speeds, cut inside, challenge opponents. He's not afraid to run at defenders. When we changed to a 4-3-3 formation I thought it was going to be particularly fitting for four players: Diaby, Fabregas, Wilshere and Walcott. Theo's just the type of player I'd love to have in one of the wide roles in the attack to mix things up. Whether he'll make it here or not is still up in the air but looking at him right now he'd still be one of my main attacking candidates to strengthen the squad with. It's hard to come by several of the skills he's got.

How often does he do these things though? Eboue takes fullbacks and wingers on out wide, and beats them quite often, but Theo really doesn´t. He wouldn´t even have to dribble if he could learn how to use his speed effectively on the wing. To me he hasn´t.

 

[MAK 14]

Walcott, I'll agree, is really poor at the moment. But, you can't underestimate how hard it is for Walcott injury wise at the moment (and I'm not making excuses). His season is constantly getting disrupted by fresh injuries which is seriously hampering his progress. Not being able to have a needed break in the summer because you need to play in the U-21's, then injuring your back which puts you out for a good few months, then when you come back you constantly get fresh injuries really lowers your confidence and self-esteem.

We mustn't forget how good he was last year. Since then his injuries have prevented him from getting better. Having said that, I have no doubt whatsoever he will get back to his old form during the course of the season.

 

[Humble Rex]

But, since he has been this crappy since he came back, is Wenger right in using the first team for him to get his form back?
Bendtner has been out - he contributes to the team
Nasri was out - he contributes
Eduardo was out for a REALLLY long time - he has contributed
and so on...
Does Theo on present form contribute to the team?

 

[lagos]

....anyway back to the ratings

 

[Humble Rex]

You are right of course. Still an intersting topic to discuss I think.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

I agree with you, the kid is, well a kid, and has potential, (read pace). In fairness he can also make brilliant runs. However, he has been absolutely horrible since he came back. Woeful first touch, doesn´t take people on, loses the ball way too much, horrible decision making, makes no impact what so ever. I can´t imagine it looks differently in training, but then again it might. My point is: Is Wenger right in using the first team for Theo to get back to something that looks like form? For me, he shouldn´t be anywhere close to getting games for the first team on current form. He should practise with the first team and play for the reserves until he actually proves he can be of use for us. What do the rest of you think?

Well, just because he's playing badly at the moment doesn't mean he can't do any better. I've seen him do better. Much better. I don't really care for this fashionable opinion that he's got no football ability whatsoever beyond pace. He's well above the average Premier League footballer in my opinion in most aspects. If we would judge all players by how close their technical level is to Cesc or Arshavin we'd end up with a pretty thin squad.

I'm not so sure Wenger has used the first team for Theo to get back into shape, though. He's started six (6) games this season. One of those starts was in the FA Cup against Stoke. One was against Olympiakos in Champions League when we fielded our reserve team. The other four are spread out over 26 league games. From a realistic perspective you'd have a hard time arguing that Walcott have played too much this season, injuries or not.

 

[Humble Rex]

Klaus, if being serious then of course Theo offers more than pace. He can also make great off the ball runs, and perhaps what is most interesting the way I see it, he has a tendency to actually contribute in big games. He scored in the CC final, he scored in the FA Cup semi, he had his run against Pool, scored a hattrick for England in arguably the only game where the players had to turn up. He has that. When on form. Which he isn´t.
I can to some extent, because of this, understand why he started at Chelsea. But if you look at how he had performed in the minutes he had prior to that match it still doesn´t make sence to me. And after his cameo against Pool there is nothing to suggest he is on the up.
Based on this he doesn´t even warrant subs appearances right now. He should first show that he is capable of contributing to the squad. He should practise with the team and play for the reserves.
By the way Klaus, there are at least 15 wide players in the league who are better than Theo... My opinion.

 

[Wenger14]

It's pointless discussing Theo's potential right now. He is understandably in poor form after missing out on preseason and 90% of the season up to now and in these discussions the most recent games tend to be given a stronger weightage (rightly or wrongly).

Based on current form, he should be plying his trade elsewhere but his current form isn't a true indication of his actual ability. He can and will do a lot better as he showed just before his injuries and he will improve on that too, provided injuries don't hamper him further.

 

[Klaus Daimler]

By the way Klaus, there are at least 15 wide players in the league who are better than Theo... My opinion.

I don't really disagree with any of your post, except this part. I don't think there are too many wide players in the league that are potentially better suited for a wide position in a 4-3-3.

Based on current form, he should be plying his trade elsewhere but his current form isn't a true indication of his actual ability.

I think that's a good response to the question of whether he should even be in the first team or not.

 

[Shue]

Writing off a 20 year old who has scored stunning international hat tricks is so A-M.

 

[Biggus]

Arsenes facepalm seems to agree.

 

[alboots101]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_CG0frQAKc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_CG0frQAKc</a>

 

[flobaba]

Writing off a 20 year old who has scored stunning international hat tricks is so A-M.

Just the one Shue. Just the one.

I agree though. I hate and have always condemned the way Wenger's gone about his project but I've always realized that all our players (bar Almunia) are quite talented. Denilson included. I don't expect much from Walcott this season, but with a proper preseason prep under his belt next time around, i believe he'll show more of his "stuff".

Hopefully he stays injury free for more than a month too.

 

[Humble Rex]

I am not writing him off, and I hope he will become a great player for us if it is me you are talking about Shue. (Would be kind of stupid wishing otherwise considering the time and money the club has already invested in him...) I wish Theo the best of luck and I hope he will first of all have a little luck with injuries. Then we will see.
Sure he will improve, every 20 year old will, and he will at least become a decent player with more experience. I am far from convinced he will become more than a decent player though. He has so many flaws as a player, and he had them even when he was on great form.